Puzzling 1DX Mark II Sensor Issue?

[YuengLinger]

Waiting for Canon.
IN the meantime...Maybe it's a DEHAZE artifact.

I'd also like to see the real world images where this is showing up.

When somebody gets whiny and defensive, I start to think a thread was a stunt to begin with. Just sayin'.

We won't learn anything until we have an answer that is clearly, certainly from Canon.

I'm sticking with the over enthusiastic QC girl with a brush somewhere along the assembly line theory.

 

[rdalrt]

I'd also like to see the real world images where this is showing up.

This.

If it doesn't show up in a real image. Why worry?

Myself, I just got my 1DX II back from Canon with a new sensor for an issue that DID show up in real world photos.

If you can't show that it produces reproducible effects in actual photos, I doubt any camera company would show much concern.

 

[jrista]

Just doing a bit of reading on RBI -- isn't it a bit like an image burn in, to some extent like what you'd get on an older plasma tv? I'm seeing examples of silhouettes of images for RBI if I google.

At the moment I'm not completely convinced what I am experiencing is RBI, but I do suspect it is indeed a property of the sensor.

I was just reconfirming tonight that my macro shots from the other day, before I even had the sensor looked at (let alone touched) did exhibit the same patterns. The cleanings should have at least smeared the lines if it were oil on the top glass. Therefore, it's either the top glass which has defects, or the sensor itself, or something akin to RBI like what Jrista suggests.

What's interesting is the Dehaze tool lets me over-hence the problem, and I can see these markings stretch across the Center of the sensor, although it's not nearly as pronounced in the Center as it is along the left edge of the image. It's the only left edge where I can make the markings out without any adjustments; the Center smears are non existent without Dehaze.

I can post a raw file in the morning.

The sensor substrate accumulates electrons when deeply cooled, including those that sometimes leak from the photodiodes. So yes, that does result in a ghost image. However in a lot of cases, the ghost image is actually the least of the problem...the larger problem is often the radial pattern of the crystal itself as preserved in the sensor substrate, which will occur regardless of whether the sensor is exposed to light or not (i.e. it will show up in dark and bias frames.)

Again, I've only heard of crystal pattern appearing with RBI in the case of extreme cooling. I have not known it to appear at warmer temps. It could be an entirely different problem...if it is, I don't know the cause.

Well, that's interesting information nonetheless. Thank you for taking the time to post and offering up a suggestion as to the problem.

There definitely hasn't been any extreme cooling -- The coldest it's been is about 20 degree celsius (68 F).


Upon process of elimination, and much to Privatebydesign's chagrin, I think the two most plausible situations are: 1) dust/oil streaks between one of the sensor stack layers, or 2) just really badly stuck on oil (but after a thorough sensor clean without further smudging or streaking, the less likely of the two).

From my experience, these don't look like scratches on the sensor to me. Scratches, or at the least the ones I've seen in person, have always been visible when looking through a loupe, and also appear dark like a piece of dust on an image. These streaks don't really change definition while stopping down either.


Anyways, thanks again Jrista.

You know, Canon has taken to gluing the back side of the lower LPF layer to the sensor. It eliminates an air gap, and they can control the refractive index of the glue. I wonder if they did that with the 1D X II, as if they did, these streaks could be from the glue.

If that is the case...then I would say it's in poor form for Canon's flagship camera. All these talking heads here trying to make it sound like a non-issue, ignore them. This is a die hard Canon fanboy forum, and there is rabid intolerance of anything that puts Canon in a negative light, even if it may be a legitimate concern. If you are seeing the issue in your work and it bugs you, it's a problem. Simple as that. The notion that it is bad to use some processing to make it easier to see is bull. We all process our images...if processing enhances the issue, that makes it even more of a problem!

I would get on Canon's ass, send them examples of the issue, and see if they can help you figure out what the deal is and get it fixed. Personally, for what, $7000...no way in hell I'd deal with an issue like this if it was affecting my work.

 

[unfocused]

...All these talking heads here trying to make it sound like a non-issue, ignore them. This is a die hard Canon fanboy forum, and there is rabid intolerance of anything that puts Canon in a negative light, even if it may be a legitimate concern...

Most of the people responding are not "trying to make it sound like a non-issue." People are simply saying that seeking answers from pseudo-experts on a forum is not going to be particularly satisfying or effective. Virtually everyone who has expressed an opinion has said the same thing: send it to Canon.

 

[Loswr]

This is a die hard Canon fanboy forum, and there is rabid intolerance of anything that puts Canon in a negative light, even if it may be a legitimate concern.

Careful, Jon...your prejudices are showing. :-[ Plenty of us are critical of Canon when warranted, (e.g., in my case launch delays, a firmware but that prevented applying AFMA on my then-new 1D X, etc.). On the other hand, when some of us make egregiously asinine statements – such as when you stated that Canon sensors deliver, "...poor, sub-par, unacceptable IQ," – they can expect to take some flak. Some respond to that flak by acknowledging they may have overstated things...others just delete a bunch of their posts in a fit of pique (as I recall, you chose the latter approach).

The notion that it is bad to use some processing to make it easier to see is bull. We all process our images...if processing enhances the issue, that makes it even more of a problem!

Do you routinely apply 100% dehaze? Just curious...

 

[Loswr]

@R1-7D – as others have advised, send it to Canon. That's really your only option. Still, don't be surprised if they do nothing.

With the aforementioned 1D X AFMA bug, they said 'send it in' (I didn't). I declined, sent a video – they reviewed it, agreed it was a bug but indicated they couldn't reproduce, and again said 'send it in' (I still didn't). With the help of another forum member, we identified the unrelated setting causing the bug, and I communicated that to Canon, who then could reproduce the issue. They cascaded it up to the engineers in Japan, and a subsequent firmware update fixed it.

So, while consulting the Internet can help, it only goes so far. In cases where there's actual hardware or firmware problem, only Canon can actually fix it.

 

[East Wind Photography]

@R1-7D – as others have advised, send it to Canon. That's really your only option. Still, don't be surprised if they do nothing.

With the aforementioned 1D X AFMA bug, they said 'send it in' (I didn't). I declined, sent a video – they reviewed it, agreed it was a bug but indicated they couldn't reproduce, and again said 'send it in' (I still didn't). With the help of another forum member, we identified the unrelated setting causing the bug, and I communicated that to Canon, who then could reproduce the issue. They cascaded it up to the engineers in Japan, and a subsequent firmware update fixed it.

So, while consulting the Internet can help, it only goes so far. In cases where there's actual hardware or firmware problem, only Canon can actually fix it.

CR forum usually bad for advice. Marginally good to see if anyone else is having similar issues. The rest just seems to be a personality p1ss1ng contest.

 

[YuengLinger]

@R1-7D – as others have advised, send it to Canon. That's really your only option. Still, don't be surprised if they do nothing.

With the aforementioned 1D X AFMA bug, they said 'send it in' (I didn't). I declined, sent a video – they reviewed it, agreed it was a bug but indicated they couldn't reproduce, and again said 'send it in' (I still didn't). With the help of another forum member, we identified the unrelated setting causing the bug, and I communicated that to Canon, who then could reproduce the issue. They cascaded it up to the engineers in Japan, and a subsequent firmware update fixed it.

So, while consulting the Internet can help, it only goes so far. In cases where there's actual hardware or firmware problem, only Canon can actually fix it.

CR forum usually bad for advice. Marginally good to see if anyone else is having similar issues. The rest just seems to be a personality p1ss1ng contest.

JRista's latest speculation about glue at least sticks to the facts.

As for advice, EWP, I've gotten my share of very good advice here, and I've done my best to share.

However, when we've gotten to the point in any discussion where the obvious solution (in this case, send it to Canon with sample images) has been given, and the crowd that wants to just keep criticism and complaining going, sure, some chiding and exasperation will take occur.

I think if you go to anybody, any forum with the attitude that they are "usually bad for advice," you are going to get what you expect.

 

[R1-7D]

Thanks everyone for your help. I appreciate all the contributions. I really don't want to get into it with any other members, as it's just not worth it. I'll see what Canon says and go from there.

Thanks!

 

[retroreflection]

R1-7D
You have had a previous experience with CPS that has left you convinced that their technicians are stupid. That is one interpretation, another is that they conform to the procedures of their employer even if it leaves you frustrated.
Given the subtlety of the condition that you find objectionable, I think the odds are good that they will find nothing wrong (in truth, nothing outside of the corporately determined test parameters). I think the odds are also good that you will be upset by that.

For the health of your stomach lining, I suggest you then simply return this body and get a different one. There seems to be evidence that not all 1DX IIs have this condition. Chances are you can find one of those and be happier.

 

[kaihp]

For the health of your stomach lining, I suggest you then simply return this body and get a different one. There seems to be evidence that not all 1DX IIs have this condition. Chances are you can find one of those and be happier.

+1 sounds like the most pragmatic solution.

 

[YuengLinger]

For the health of your stomach lining, I suggest you then simply return this body and get a different one. There seems to be evidence that not all 1DX IIs have this condition. Chances are you can find one of those and be happier.

+1 sounds like the most pragmatic solution.

Here's the OP's problem with this:

"It's an $8000 camera here in Canada, and I have had it a month. I'm concerned there's damage that was not caused by me."

Some retailers might offer a little wiggle room.

A lot has been said in this thread about attitude, ignorance, and the outlaw nature of the internet. I admire the steadfast regulars here who post sincere advice all the while KNOWING that a percentage of complaints are completely fabricated or echoes of complaints seen elsewhere. For every X number of genuine issues, there are Y numbers of phony scenarios posted by people who have no better sport in their lives. And then there are Z number of posts, fewer than Y is my guess, posted by people who have an agenda, paid or otherwise.

So, please, let us be grateful for the truly good advice shared so freely here, while being understanding of the cynicism that crops up.

Cheers! 8)

 

[R1-7D]

For the health of your stomach lining, I suggest you then simply return this body and get a different one. There seems to be evidence that not all 1DX IIs have this condition. Chances are you can find one of those and be happier.

+1 sounds like the most pragmatic solution.

Here's the OP's problem with this:

"It's an $8000 camera here in Canada, and I have had it a month. I'm concerned there's damage that was not caused by me."

Some retailers might offer a little wiggle room.

A lot has been said in this thread about attitude, ignorance, and the outlaw nature of the internet. I admire the steadfast regulars here who post sincere advice all the while KNOWING that a percentage of complaints are completely fabricated or echoes of complaints seen elsewhere. For every X number of genuine issues, there are Y numbers of phony scenarios posted by people who have no better sport in their lives. And then there are Z number of posts, fewer than Y is my guess, posted by people who have an agenda, paid or otherwise.

So, please, let us be grateful for the truly good advice shared so freely here, while being understanding of the cynicism that crops up.

Cheers! 8)

I tried going back to my retailer, The Camera Store. They are the best photography equipment retailer I've ever dealt with and they've helped me a lot in the past. They couldn't in this particular case, as I've purchased the camera via a CPS discount, though. I was informed I'd have to deal with Canon on the issue. I'm still now waiting to hear from Canon after sending my images yesterday.

As far as the authenticity of my complaint goes: I've got quite a few posts now here on the forum, and I've been around for quite a few years. I'm not a huge poster, but I do post a couple times a month and a few on here know me. I also am not one for wasting time fabricating complaints or problems. I have a busy life, and I'm not that juvenile. I've had legitimate issues before with my 1DX and the forum was a huge help to me then. Take this for what you will.

I have appreciated your posts, though. Again, thank you to anyone who has had a suggestion or made a comment about these streaks. I'll report back if Canon says anything to me. Thankfully I got busy again yesterday afternoon and haven't had the same time to dwell on it.

 

[privatebydesign]

No animosity or stress from me, and I hope you get it sorted out to your satisfaction.

I'll be very interested to see what Canon say about it.

I took a very close look at some of the 1DX MkII RAW files I have and did find this, but only after 100% Dehaze and excessive sharpening and viewing at 200%. There are lines but it looks more like processing induced artifacts to me.

 

[R1-7D]

No animosity or stress from me, and I hope you get it sorted out to your satisfaction.

I'll be very interested to see what Canon say about it.

I took a very close look at some of the 1DX MkII RAW files I have and did find this, but only after 100% Dehaze and excessive sharpening and viewing at 200%. There are lines but it looks more like processing induced artifacts to me.

Privatebydesign,

Thanks for checking your camera for me. The pictures you've attached indeed just look like pixelation and artifacts from the post-processing, so alls good there!

I heard back from Canon this afternoon. The guy requested more photos and said he was sending them further up the chain. So, time will tell what happens...

Cheers!

 

[Jack Douglas]

This thread like many others was good for a laugh for someone (me) with a distorted sense of humour!

A prerequisite for frequenting CR has to be a thick skin!

I am though truly interested in the outcome of this issue.

Jack

 

[Valvebounce]

Hi R1-7D.
This at least looks promising, not rejected at the first level.

Cheers, Graham.

I heard back from Canon this afternoon. The guy requested more photos and said he was sending them further up the chain. So, time will tell what happens...

Cheers!

 

[R1-7D]

Canon requested I send the camera in. I'm going on a trip next week and need some of my equipment, so I think I'll just send it in when I'm home again. They are aware of the issue now though.

 

[driandsouza]

Hi.
I recently got myself the IDX 2 and am facing the same sensor dust issues.

What is surprising is that I found a dust spot suddenly appearing in my images in the middle of taking a series of blue sky shots at f22...even without my having changed the lens!

This was after I got my sensor cleaned by Canon (India) a week ago.

(1DXii, 7D, 7Dii, 500mmf4ISii, 1.4xiii, 2xiii, 100mmf2.8IS, 17-40f4)

 

[R1-7D]

Hi.
I recently got myself the IDX 2 and am facing the same sensor dust issues.

What is surprising is that I found a dust spot suddenly appearing in my images in the middle of taking a series of blue sky shots at f22...even without my having changed the lens!

This was after I got my sensor cleaned by Canon (India) a week ago.

(1DXii, 7D, 7Dii, 500mmf4ISii, 1.4xiii, 2xiii, 100mmf2.8IS, 17-40f4)

Hi,

Just to clarify, I'm not experiencing a sensor dust issue. I am experiencing lines that look like brush strokes in two areas of my sensor. These lines appear at f13, and are visible throughout the rest of the aperture range.

Do you have an image you can post up to show what you're experiencing? If you're still seeing only dust it might just be you need to have the sensor cleaned yet again. It's hard to get it spotless, and might not be worth the effort.


I'm out of my country right now, but I'll be home tomorrow night and on Monday I'm sending my camera in. I'll report back what Canon Canada says or does.