right time to turn pro...?

[K3nt]

I'd like to latch on to what someone else was saying about how them starting to "chase the money" killed their hobby.
I've been thinking about doing more paid-for work, but what's really holding me back is the thought of me losing my hobby. Right now, I am in a happy place where my day job doesn't interfere too much and I can easily spend a weekend just photographing whatever I want.
I am very afraid to kill the joy by trying to make a living out of it. At this point, I'd love to, but I know, for myself this is currently not worth the risk or effort.
I had a friend that was an excellent cook, and I mean brilliant, and I once asked him why he doesn't just open his own restaurant seeing how he loved it so much. His answer? "Doctors can bury their mistakes, cooks have to eat theirs." That to me, really summed it up, by making it his job, he would eventually lose the passion for it, not something I want to do.

If you still feel this is what you want and need to do, by all means, heed some of the excellent advice already given. Start slow, work your way up, don't go cold turkey on your day job just yet, get an accountant etc.

Your work definitely shows that you have an eye for the art, so don't quit!

Wow, that sounded really negative... it wasn't meant that way.

 

[Jettatore]

Well, that's just what I don't know Marsu. Like I said, I already could tell I loathed it without learning the further little annoyances and 'unforeseen lost hours' without caring enough to look further. Maybe someone else can offer first hand insight but while your at it, please note hours, pay, costs, unforeseen extra work/lost hours, etc., etc. if you can handle that. Because those are the rarest of and most often lied about details when considering any career.

 

[LewisShermer]

My day job already is photography, but the problem is working for someone else rather than for myself at the end of the day. I'd probably market the commercial aspect and the wedding sides of the business separately. no one likes a crossover do they? just sitting here at my desk retouching copious amounts of watches is killing my passion already. then when I get home I have to start work again on all the stuff I'm doing for other people. It just all seems like work work work.

I've planned out my next years photography with regards to the brands we have at work and for the next 3 months I'm shooting head on shots of watches then retouching. After that I have to photograph and put together argos pages for a month then it starts all over again. I can't just keep photographing watches. With being an in house photographer my wages aren't that great and I guess I could make a hell of a lot more doing half the work.

I shot about 100 items for the company of a friend of a friend last week and it basically doubled my salary for the month. real simple shots, glass/pottery/vases/bottles cut outs on white... a bit boring, but nether the less it may lead somewhere else. It's all lit properly with flash heads so it looks pretty good.

I have about 5 weddings lined up that I'm doing for friends for free this summer...

it just really got me thinking

 

[Marine03]

Hope you don't mind me asking here, but I'm helping a friend with his photography business and doing second shooter at weddings and we have a light box that we are using a lot instead of a photo booth. We think corporate events and schools would be the way to go making money off that, but how the heck does one even advertise to businesses and schools?

 

[Jettatore]

Marine03,

Either setup up a marketing campaign, renting space at large conferences your target customer would likely attend. Or get connected directly with administrators and decision makers at said school or company. You might consider private schools and the like as public schools are being gradually but forcefully phased out by politics w/ private interests. Good luck.

 

[awinphoto]

Hope you don't mind me asking here, but I'm helping a friend with his photography business and doing second shooter at weddings and we have a light box that we are using a lot instead of a photo booth. We think corporate events and schools would be the way to go making money off that, but how the heck does one even advertise to businesses and schools?

Be very careful with school... lots of school districts tend to have contracts with national companies such as lifetouch, etc... Plus they kinda expect some bones thrown to the schools such as free admin and teacher photos, etc. I've heard that private schools, charter schools, and churches may be more profitable... They tend to not have long standing contracts... Good luck.

edit.... The one exception i've seen is senior portraits... That's becoming quite profitable from what I understand and is more of a free-for-all, just remember to keep ties with the school for website/yearbook photo entry requirements.

 

[Dylan777]

Living the dream isn't easy... You have to make sure you are making enough doing photography to supplement all your income... In an era where the fine line of professional and amateur is getting thinner and thinner... Lower end cameras are getting so good and frankly it is so easy to learn, Make sure you get your portfolio as good as you can, find out what passions you have with photography... is it portraits, weddings, both, commercial, cars, advertising, product, etc... Find out what makes you unique from any other photographer and what you can bring to the table that someone would hire you over 10 other photographers placing Craigslist ads offering their services for a song and a dance. Get the basics of your business affairs in order such as equipment, printing services, pricing, operations, finances/accounting, market plan... Remember this is a business, not a hobby, and without getting that stuff figured out before hand, it will help you not become a non-profit. Lastly market market market and dont give up. It's easy to get discouraged but if you got a good market plan and keep at it, even if it feels like your getting nowhere, it will work out in the end. There's a lot of expense when dealing with a business so save up while you can.

As far as when is a right time, a big photographer once said to keep your day job as long as it doesn't kill you. Keep it until it gets to the point you have so much photography work and it feels like either job will start to suffer if you dont drop your day job. Then is a good time to jump ship because it means you have lots of repeat work coming in, and that is what is needed to survive.

100% agreed

 

[bp]

Also highly agree with the quoted part in red above.

Frankly, I think this is a horrible time to "go pro". Especially if you're just starting out and haven't developed a niche. SO MANY people nowadays come home from Wal Mart with a Rebel and a kit lens, and start watermarking every bad shot they take with "My Name Photography" and call themselves a pro and charge a fraction of what you'd need to actually make a living.

Work hard to carve out a niche. Build a reputation and become the "go-to-guy" for that niche in your area. And don't quit the day job until you absolutely have to. Aside from the security, day jobs can help pay for a lot of very nice gear.

 

[Marsu42]

Frankly, I think this is a horrible time to "go pro". Especially if you're just starting out and haven't developed a niche. SO MANY people nowadays come home from Wal Mart with a Rebel and a kit lens, and start watermarking every bad shot they take with "My Name Photography" and call themselves a pro and charge a fraction of what you'd need to actually make a living.

On the other hand, this will only get worse, won't it? So isn't the reverse thing also true - if you want to go pro do it right now, because in the future all possible niches will get more and more occupied by competition?

 

[preppyak]

But it's not just about income. I made a disturbing realization that the more I was shooting for money, the more my hobby was dying. It has now been YEARS since I went out to take some pictures just for fun. It's not that I don't have time to do it - I just don't feel like it if you can believe that. And that thought saddens me, because I loved my hobby.

I had this same thing happen with my video work; I work as a video editor AND I was producing videos all weekend, and I just got burned out so quickly. It just occurred to me that I haven't done a video in my free time in 4-5 months now basically...which used to be unthinkable. Thankfully I've kept photography from becoming that, and while I did just shoot a friends wedding, I know its not something I want to do consistently for income.

Another good place to ask advice from wedding photographers is this forum: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/48

They've been discussing a lot of the same things you asked, and you'd probably learn a lot of the business side from there. I agree with whoever said to become a 2nd shooter for someone; it takes a lot of the risk away from you, but it gives you invaluable experience. The other thing you need to do is stop doing free work; because it will get you branded as the guy who does his work for cheap. If you want to start doing photography full-time, you need to really decide what you'll need to charge, and if you can book clients at that price.

 

[adebrophy]

Great thread - and some wonderful advice.

I've got to second the advice of hedging your bets and working freelance part time in parallel. I did this when I went freelance as a public relations consultant 18 months ago. I also started a sideline in photography to cater for clients that needed events or PR photos.

being that I was already going freelance in another field this means it was much easier to try photography part time but you could look at whether your current employer would be happy to employ you for 3/4 days per week instead, which could offer you the sort of flexibility that you'd need to get any critical mass on your own work. I did consider that option instead.

A couple of resources you'll find useful on working out the business plan:
Freelance fees guide. This website has some great resources including a (simplistic) excel calculator that you can use to try and count up the costs you'll face:

http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/index.php?language=en&country=UK&section=Photography&subsect=Day/base+rates&page=Advice

This section has some good benchmarks on what people in London are charging:
http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/index.php?&section=Photography&subsect=All&subsubs=All

I think the other piece of advice I'd offer from my limited experience as a newbie is price sensibly. Digital is making this industry easier for part timers to enter but I think it does no one any good to undercut sensible rates that pros need to charge to pay for all the expenses of a viable business. Use benchmarks and then discount from there but don't go too low - no sense commoditising the rates of an industry you want to join! I tend to offer a rate that is in line with the lower end of the average pricing but make it clear to clients that I'm offering those rates as I'm a start up and make them realise that that's why I'm cheaper than the mid range pros. In other words - if you discount, make sure the client realises that that is a discounted rate in a given circumstance. Work on building trust and delivering quality and then charging a full non-discounted rates as that trust is established.

 

[adebrophy]

The other thing you need to do is stop doing free work; because it will get you branded as the guy who does his work for cheap.

One caveat to that is maybe work with charities for free - that way you can work with some recognised brand names that will offer very valuable testimonials, do something altruistic, and the perception of that work is much better with corporate clients. And you still get to make your mistakes and learn under more realistic pressures -i.e. delivering to a commission - without having to annoy paying customers. I've found that work with charities is also a great way of meeting people and networking - lots of the other volunteers have other jobs too - I've won work through this channel, which took me by surprise when it happened.

 

[bdunbar79]

Ok, this thread went rapidly downhill. You all quickly and quietly jumped into a pile of well thought out, nice sound rhetoric with a new popular logic of, oh just take it step by step and slowly, don't quit your day slavery..... which leads exactly to gung-ho know it all amateurs who feel beginner's enthusiasm doing just the exact opposite, and the only people actually listening to you are those that have no other choice, and feel good after having listened to this...

Ok, so that's been repeated like 10+ times now, so without simply refreshing the rhetoric, post more facts about your current salary, what level you are at and how many hours you work and where all the 'extra' unforeseen hours that you don't get paid for come from, etc., etc.,

Talk figures, numbers, hours, realities. The rest of this is fantastical rhetoric, no offense.

Can you please share with the group how much money you make as a professional photographer and how much time it takes you per week? Be specific. Then I'll share with you all of the financial business on my end. Thanks.

 

[Jettatore]

Certainly, and I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread. I'm not a professional photographer. I made probably about $2,000 or so (edit: actually I think it was a decent bit less but I don't remember an exact figure) doing freelance Photography gigs last year and at this time I don't plan to do any more paid photography work, I didn't enjoy photography as a paid endeavor one bit.

The gigs were several weddings as a 2nd shooter, lasting from the morning to late evening, starting at the bride/grooms dressing rooms and ending at the toast/dance/eating session, forget what that's called (a note, free, tastey but incredibly unhealthy food was always provided, -note on two occasions the dinner food that was provided for contractor staff, DJ's photographers, etc., was not the same nice fancy food the guests were eating, but the appetizer portions of the events always were and we weren't expected to take pictures of people while they were eating). Also I got roped into doing some handful of photo-booth shenanigans that I had no interest in but offered as a favor to the person I was second shooting for, that was even more miserable than 2nd shooting, by a considerable degree, and after long I washed my hands of the entire debacle. The photo-booth gig had little to nothing to do with photography and more to do with testing my fractured, damaged level of patience, carting around a crummy makeshift curtain/stage and setting up a laptop, printer and camera, before the event: then babysit the software for the event: then pack it up and return the equipment the following day. I briefly considered just building up a portfolio of sample wedding photography, and then advertising for low cost for the first few gigs until I could demand more. The only other thing that came close to paid work was a website deal I was working on that fell through during pre-production and negotiations, where I took some preliminary images of the store/factories location to use in their marketing, but this project fell through and went completely unpaid.

Aside from that bit, since you are probably interested. I have a BFA (Bachelor's of Fine Art) as well as some trade schooling. Some decent knowledge of video editing and 3D animation, and have been studying and working behind applications like Photoshop for more than 14 years.

Photography for me will remain an interest and a hobby, and as well a tool to combine with my other casual art endeavors and occasional freelance gigs, like digital painting, websites, etc.. In general, I have grown to hate art/creativity as a buisiness/way of income and if I was forced to do it all over, I would probably have become a plumber who moonlit as hobbyist artist. I have however, dug my hole rather deep with student loan debt and now at least strive to live cheaply and survive on a small bit of inheritance and reluctantly but hopefully some future but limited freelance/contract creative gigs, (basically just looking to have a lot of free time and financially scrape by unless something more appealing presents itself). This topic however, interests me greatly, as I am interested in the salaries, lifestyles, work life, etc. of art related fields, so your promised input is very much appreciated, thank you very much in advance, cheers.

 

[bdunbar79]

Thank you. At least now I know you have the perspective that I was looking for. Thank you for being honest, that is respctable. This is what happened to me. I thought I'd go "pro" and have a part-time job and shoot weddings. I was making about $3000/wedding in central Ohio. Some socieconomic/geographic areas are probably markedly different from one another. My clients as you might guess, were very picky. It's their wedding, so why not? The problem I ran into is that no couple in the world wanted me to print and put the photo book together; they wanted the photos sent out and printed by a commercial company and then have me give them the book AND a CD that I made. This cost money. I was not able to build in enough cost because if I would charge, say $3500, I wouldn't get the business. I love photography deeply as a hobby and I'm glad you share this as well. I began hating weddings so bad that I began despising my hobby and wouldn't go out and shoot for fun anymore because I didn't even want to look at my camera. Granted, I did not go into the senior pictures market either, why I didn't I don't know, but I just didn't. I was able to pick up some high school sports for some minor money, maybe $80-$200/game with a CD. But the time it took me to post-process and effort to put the photo books together got me hating my hobby once again. I was and am still not a good enough photographer such that I don't have to do some medium post processing at least. So I quit for awhile.

I came back refreshed and with a new attitude. I got a good job in my profession (analytical chemistry) and began doing it for fun again and if I felt like it, would shoot events. The thing I learned the hard way was that there was no such thing as a true professional photographer. There is no education required, no board exams, no mentor, no third party to critque. Clients who critique isn't the way to go. Mess up and word of mouth gets around and your business is hurt. It's a really tough way to go.

I guess I was just cautioning the OP because you can really get burned if you don't ease into it. $3000 for a wedding is ok but I had to shoot around 1500 pictures and then go home and sort through everything and they had to be perfect. The sports I did for $80-$200/game was more laxed, but I had to buy an expensive camera (back then the 1D Mark III) as a tool to fit that style of photography. In a year I highly doubt I could have grossed more than $30,000 and that would have been lucky. I just didn't have the heart to do it. I'm much happier now with a full time job and doing what I'm doing. I make enough to justify high-end L lenses and high-end cameras, but I'm not bogged down in the business stuff that made me hate the hobby.

My true only costs were a high-end computer and a great photo printer, which turned out I couldn't use much because most clients wanted the work sent out. I also always kept two pro camera bodies and most of the latest L lenses, which if you want a dollar amount there, total costs upwards of $50,000. For sports I printed my own stuff. So I don't have much to share on business expenses because I did it from home. I didn't have a studio downtown, so I guess I'm not a big business photographer, which by the way I hope someone who IS will reply here. Health insurance is a concern so had I gone 100% photography, I would have had to get into a much bigger market.

Thanks for reading.

 

[LewisShermer]

I made about £2500 this month which will hopefully be repeat business and I had a new client on the phone this morning requesting furniture shots... hopefully there will be quite a lot of them

I reckon I already have my niche in product photography, especially watches and jewellery, which by all accounts is hard to come by someone that knows exactly what they're doing with it regards to lighting something that small and detailed in an appropriate manner. as much as I hate doing it for my day job, if I was charging £100 (which is still quite cheap) for the simple head on or 45 degree c-clip and £300-£500 for a more artistic shot, i could live with doing 5 or 6 a day.

that's one of mine... basically, i knock out about 800 of them a year for some quite big brands. I don't get to spend the time I'd really like to on them as there's just so damn many to get through.

I do loads of that style shot for magazines like cosmo and elle...

Maybe I'm just stuck with it for life? :-\

 

[LewisShermer]

oh, and I started a blog with the more "artistic pro" side of my work...

http://lewismaxwellphotography.tumblr.com/

 

[Jettatore]

I made about £2500 this month which will hopefully be repeat business...

Not too shabby if I may say. Would you mind mentioning your aprox. total hours for this portion of income? Additionally, any details on how it is spread out would be interesting unless it's completely flexible and either up to you or worked around prior obligations (day job, etc.). Mostly I just want to know the total hours to better understand your hourly rate (aprox is fine but with consideration to what I can only describe as "invisible hours", aka, planning/phone meetings, etc.).

Finally, best of luck to you, and thank you for all the info you have put out there. May you find the best of success and reward.

 

[LewisShermer]

i reckon i can get between 6-10 shots done, clipped and retouched per evening (7pm-1am) so maybe 10 evenings. Although product varied between real simple boxes and quite complex pottery and glass vases which require a little more thought with the lighting. i'm pretty quick at putting paths around stuff but sometimes I go a little over the top with the retouching so everything ends up a little hyper-real, which I guess adds to the charm but sometimes it just adds up the hours. there's no golden rule, some things just take longer than others and you pretty much only get out what you put in. my lighting techniques may not be the best in the world but they're not the worst and hopefully I'll learn a lot more as time goes on.

I'm itching to just hand my notice in and just go for it...

 

[bdunbar79]

i reckon i can get between 6-10 shots done, clipped and retouched per evening (7pm-1am) so maybe 10 evenings. Although product varied between real simple boxes and quite complex pottery and glass vases which require a little more thought with the lighting. i'm pretty quick at putting paths around stuff but sometimes I go a little over the top with the retouching so everything ends up a little hyper-real, which I guess adds to the charm but sometimes it just adds up the hours. there's no golden rule, some things just take longer than others and you pretty much only get out what you put in. my lighting techniques may not be the best in the world but they're not the worst and hopefully I'll learn a lot more as time goes on.

I'm itching to just hand my notice in and just go for it...

Well, the question I'd ask is can you do it right now financially? Can you keep working and be happy while photographing? If you can do it now financially, then you only live once, so do it and be happy. If you need to work longer before you get a bigger business plan, you can always do that too. Trust me, you don't know how badly right now I'd like to go to work and tell everybody to go to hell, quit, and start doing photography full time again. However, I was not in the market you are in. You can make a lot more money doing what you're doing. Make sure also you have a plan for health care. If you go for it I'm sure you'll have the board's full support, so do keep us posted!