rumor: D600 gets 16 Bit processing

Ewinter

EOS RP
Aug 21, 2012
223
0
Even if it is one hell of a camera...it's still ugly as sin. I'm guessing if there was one reason i'd even entertain of switching, it'd be the fact nikon have uncompressed hdmi. But then, I prefer canon lens choice. And af. And the way they handle...
 

Aglet

EOS 5D Mark IV
Feb 26, 2012
1,728
15
AB
Positron said:
What I want to know, if anyone cares to explain it, is what exactly "16-bit processing" actually means. If it means that the camera's internal memory has a 16-bit address space, then it's completely meaningless mumbo-jumbo. If it means the ADC is 16 bits but the final image is stored as 14 bits, then they are throwing away 75% of the data captured (and a ton of wasted processing power) to save 12% of the space (4 MB, at best?), which seems like a Really Bad Idea for RAWs. So what's going on here?

internal processing, for applying gamma curves, etc., benefits from not having least significant bits truncated until the processing is finished.
Even PnS compacts, who only output 8b jpegs, often process 10 to 12 bits internally to reduce posterization and provide better tonal gradations than they would if they only processed 8 bits worth of data all the way from sensor to file.

As for this D600 rumor, I'd buy one in a snap and toss my 5D2 out with yesterdays lunch were it not for the pile of pricey Canon glass I have for it.
What Canon does to RESPOND to this third, kick-butt, FF-body within a year from their main competitor is what interests me more.

If Canon puts out (very soon please) a reasonably priced FF that has better IQ, (for those who don't know my posts that means less shadow noise at low ISO and more dynamic range) that may stop me from liquidating more of my Canon kit. That would also cause me a bit of confusion because I'll have TWO FF systems to choose from then. (Yes, I prefer Canon's lenses)
As it is now, there's only one FF body that doesn't let me down for IQ, and it's from the dark side.
 

Positron

EOS 90D
Jan 7, 2012
129
0
Aglet said:
Positron said:
What I want to know, if anyone cares to explain it, is what exactly "16-bit processing" actually means. If it means that the camera's internal memory has a 16-bit address space, then it's completely meaningless mumbo-jumbo. If it means the ADC is 16 bits but the final image is stored as 14 bits, then they are throwing away 75% of the data captured (and a ton of wasted processing power) to save 12% of the space (4 MB, at best?), which seems like a Really Bad Idea for RAWs. So what's going on here?

internal processing, for applying gamma curves, etc., benefits from not having least significant bits truncated until the processing is finished.
Even PnS compacts, who only output 8b jpegs, often process 10 to 12 bits internally to reduce posterization and provide better tonal gradations than they would if they only processed 8 bits worth of data all the way from sensor to file.

I can understand keeping the data until you make the conversion to JPEG, but if you already have all that data why would you throw it out in the RAW at all? My understanding is that building ADCs good enough to get that kind of quantization resolution is much more difficult (and expensive) than moving the data around. Having the extra 2 bits per channel would allow a lot more manipulation with minimal destruction in post, and you could always throw them out when you're ready to export.
 

simonxu11

EOS RP
Jan 11, 2012
237
0
Canon-F1 said:
psolberg said:
Freelancer said:
Pitbullo said:
So, this is the 5dMKIII competitor, not the D800. If the rumor about the price, $1500 is correct, then it is a 5DMKIII at half the price. Canon should be afraid.


it´s an entry level fullframe.
not really a competition to the 5D MK3 other then sensor size and MP.

really? I disagree. first of all it is cheaper. big plus. second it is just 1fps slower. not enough to justify the cost of the 5DmkIII. Has slightly superior resolution and if the D800 is any indication, it will easily outclass the 5DmkIII in dynamic range and low noise in shadow areas at low ISO. Surely the 5DIII will have the better AF system and probably more pro-body feel. But if this camera costs 1500 dollars, you can buy two for the price of one 5DIII and the 5DIII isn't twice the camera. sorry.



i think most who are interested in a 5D MK3 (and need it´s features) would not be satisified with the specs from the D600.

the D600 will sure be no bad camera, but a camera is more then then sensor size and pixel count.

build quality, af, iso range not to mention all the small things that make the 5D MK3 an incredible tool are missing (or worse) in the D600 as it seems.
What small things??

-Auto ISO? Even D3200's auto iso is better than 5d3's
-Multi exposure and HDR? D90 got these in 2008, canon just added
-Build-in time-lapse functionality? no for canon
-Build-in flash with wireless trigger? no for 5D
-AF face detection? no for canon except 1D and in liveview mode
-AF point-linked spot metering? A standard feature in Nikon entire range, no for canon except 1D
------------------------------------
-Shutter life: the same
-Viewfinder: the same
-Exposure compensation: the same
-Video spec: very similar, I think 5D3 is better and it has the silent touchpad
------------------------------------
-Resolution: you know it
-DR: you konw it
-A/D conversion: 16 bit for Nikon
-------------------------------------
-Continuous shoot: 5D3 is better by 1fps (D600 perhaps as fast as 5D3 with battery grip)
-Maximum shutter speed: 5D3 is better
-High iso: 5D3's better (I am guessing 0.5-1 stop)
-AF: 5D3 is clearly better
-Build quality: 5D3 is better, but the rumored D600 is smaller and lighter.
-Storage: 5D3 uses CF card, so it's better to me
--------------------------------------
IMO, if the rumored spec of the D600 is true, then it's not far behind 5D3, but it's $2000 cheaper.
 

Ewinter

EOS RP
Aug 21, 2012
223
0
simonxu11 said:
-AF: 5D3 is clearly better
...
--------------------------------------
IMO, if the rumored spec of the D600 is true, then it's not far behind 5D3, but it's $2000 cheaper.
This may completely go against how your philosophy and how you shoot, but imho- i'd pay the extra $2000 just for the better AF, and the 1 FPS more. Why?
I'd take getting the shot in 8bit JPEG over missing the shot in 24bit colours any day, because that's what matters most to me.
It's like that old saying- "F.8 and be there" or whatever it was. That person had it right. You have to get the shot before you can worry about anything else
 
Mar 14, 2012
251
6
I find it interesting how some people are talking about jumping ship for the rumored D600 when the D800 isn't even as good as the 5D Mk III, outside of its amazing sensor. And even that starts to lose its advantage at ISO 800.

Speed, AF, video quality, high ISO performance, wireless flash system, build quality and hell, quality control during manufacture are all advantages for the Canon. Strong advantages. Plus, we get some pretty awesome lenses to play with.

Let's put it this way: if both cameras had the exact same sensor, which one would you pick?
 

simonxu11

EOS RP
Jan 11, 2012
237
0
Stephen Melvin said:
I find it interesting how some people are talking about jumping ship for the rumored D600 when the D800 isn't even as good as the 5D Mk III, outside of its amazing sensor. And even that starts to lose its advantage at ISO 800.

Speed, AF, video quality, high ISO performance, wireless flash system, build quality and hell, quality control during manufacture are all advantages for the Canon. Strong advantages. Plus, we get some pretty awesome lenses to play with.

Let's put it this way: if both cameras had the exact same sensor, which one would you pick?
I find it interesting how many canon fanboies here, but they will deny this.
It all depends what you shoot if you compare D800 and 5D3.

Canon just leads in the AF only from this year with the 5D3 and 1DX, 5D3 leads D800 on high ISO performance in raw slightly (DXO and Dpreview showed 5D3 lost to D800), 1DX and D4 are very similar, with the 600EX-RT, Canon finally catches up with Nikon.

Quality control??
black tape on 5D3, AF problem on 40mm, rubber grips on 650............Oh and the error code from 01 to 99.

I also prefer Canon but can't stand the some nonsense
 

Tayvin

EOS M50
Oct 25, 2011
43
0
www.tayvinknightphoto.com
It's hard to complain about a $1500 FF camera, but I hope this "RUMOR" is wrong about the SD card slots. I don't think I even own a SD card anymore? I also remember reading another "RUMOR" about the D600 using a sensor that is not made by Sony. That may no longer be true, but if it is, don't expect the DR you get from a D800.
 

kirillica

EOS M6 Mark II
Jul 9, 2012
65
0
linnikvisuals.com
simonxu11 said:
What small things??

-Auto ISO? Even D3200's auto iso is better than 5d3's
-Multi exposure and HDR? D90 got these in 2008, canon just added
-Build-in time-lapse functionality? no for canon
-Build-in flash with wireless trigger? no for 5D
-AF face detection? no for canon except 1D and in liveview mode
-AF point-linked spot metering? A standard feature in Nikon entire range, no for canon except 1D
it looks like you need a rebel camera, if you really care about HDR and face detection ;D
 
The D90 does not have in camera HDR. And why do you want built in flash? Other than occasional emergency fill, they're useless.

Looks like my partner (who has a D90) will have a nice upgrade path if they decide to in the next while. Myself, well I don't have any money to spend on anything much so I'll just wait it out and see what happens and make do with my 7D which is doing me really well anyway. Im not going back to nikon.
 

meli

EOS 90D
Mar 2, 2012
166
0
Tayvin said:
It's hard to complain about a $1500 FF camera, but I hope this "RUMOR" is wrong about the SD card slots. I don't think I even own a SD card anymore? I also remember reading another "RUMOR" about the D600 using a sensor that is not made by Sony. That may no longer be true, but if it is, don't expect the DR you get from a D800.
apparently D4's & D3200's sensors are also nikon made and not sony, so if thats an indication, DR should be aproximately ~.5-1 stop less than D800's
 

Lawliet

EOS RP
Aug 18, 2010
549
0
simonxu11 said:
What small things??

Something you missed: xsync!
1/200 at best for the 5D3 vs. the custom function that allows 1/320 on the current Nikons.
Noticeable with mains powered flash, invaluable with battery powered units.
 

Pitbullo

EOS 90D
May 25, 2012
157
0
Just curious, I see some makes 1EV DR the same as 1bit, meanin 14bit processing gives a maximum of 14EV DR. But why is that?
 

simonxu11

EOS RP
Jan 11, 2012
237
0
kirillica said:
simonxu11 said:
What small things??

-Auto ISO? Even D3200's auto iso is better than 5d3's
-Multi exposure and HDR? D90 got these in 2008, canon just added
-Build-in time-lapse functionality? no for canon
-Build-in flash with wireless trigger? no for 5D
-AF face detection? no for canon except 1D and in liveview mode
-AF point-linked spot metering? A standard feature in Nikon entire range, no for canon except 1D
it looks like you need a rebel camera, if you really care about HDR and face detection ;D
Did I say I care about these features, which one of your eyes did you see that? I simply replied.
5D3 has HDR, 1DX has face detection, rebel series suddenly has two more bodies. ;)
 

Lawliet

EOS RP
Aug 18, 2010
549
0
Pitbullo said:
But why is that?

Because in a world with a perfectly linear sensor response one stop more light means twice as many photons on the sensor and electrons in the well, thus one more binary digit to represent that doubling. That assumes no other interference, like noise in the lower digits caused by the readout electronics.
Once you apply a gamma curve the whole relation vanishes and any number of bits can represent arbitrary dynamic range, although at the cost of tonality - you may experience banding.
 

simonxu11

EOS RP
Jan 11, 2012
237
0
Danielle said:
The D90 does not have in camera HDR. And why do you want built in flash? Other than occasional emergency fill, they're useless.

Looks like my partner (who has a D90) will have a nice upgrade path if they decide to in the next while. Myself, well I don't have any money to spend on anything much so I'll just wait it out and see what happens and make do with my 7D which is doing me really well anyway. Im not going back to nikon.
You are right about the D90 which doesn't have HDR. :)
I didn't say I need build in flash, I just replied to Kirilica that some of these small things have been built into Nikon bodies for years or better implemented than Canon.
You just mentioned build in flash can be used for occasional emergency fill, so it's not completely useless and it's better than nothing when this situation occurs :D
 

Pitbullo

EOS 90D
May 25, 2012
157
0
Lawliet said:
Pitbullo said:
But why is that?

Because in a world with a perfectly linear sensor response one stop more light means twice as many photons on the sensor and electrons in the well, thus one more binary digit to represent that doubling. That assumes no other interference, like noise in the lower digits caused by the readout electronics.
Once you apply a gamma curve the whole relation vanishes and any number of bits can represent arbitrary dynamic range, although at the cost of tonality - you may experience banding.

Thank you!
I learn something every day :)
 

Rienzphotoz

Peace unto all ye Canon, Nikon & Sony shooters
Aug 22, 2012
3,303
0
Freelancer said:
Pitbullo said:
So, this is the 5dMKIII competitor, not the D800. If the rumor about the price, $1500 is correct, then it is a 5DMKIII at half the price. Canon should be afraid.


it´s an entry level fullframe.
not really a competition to the 5D MK3 other then sensor size and MP.
+1 for Freelancer
 

Rienzphotoz

Peace unto all ye Canon, Nikon & Sony shooters
Aug 22, 2012
3,303
0
If the price is really around $1500, I will buy it along with Nikon's 28-300 lens ... but my 5D MK III with my little collection of L glass will still be my main gear ... D600 with 28-300 will be very convenient for family vacations. I like the competition between Canon & Nikon, it means we get better products ... it'll be interesting to see what Canon will come up with.
 

RLPhoto

Gear doesn't matter, Just a Matter of Convenience.
Mar 27, 2012
3,778
0
San Antonio, TX
www.Ramonlperez.com
Freelancer said:
The release probability of the Nikon D600 for Photokina is now at 99%. Here is an updated list of the specifications (new additions in bold):
•Very small and lightweight body
•16 bit image processing
•Expeed 3 processor
•Maximum video recording: 30 minutes
•Built-in mic
•19 scene modes
•Magnesium alloy only on top and back only
•Maximum shutter speed of 1/4000
•Shutter life: 150,000 cycles (the D800 is rated for 200,000 cycles)

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/08/30/updated-specifications-for-the-nikon-d600.aspx/#ixzz251haVGAP


----

not entirely sure what the buzz about 16 bit PROCESSING is, i thought the processing is 16 bit already but the data is only 14 bit? (two bits are always zero).

does this mean it´s 16 bit from the sensor, through AD, to the prozessor?

Could careless, nikon, sony, pentax, etc. I'm here at canon for the glass. 8)