Small Eos 5D IV comparison to Nikon, Sony, Fuji...

[Mikehit]

The simple truth is that for anyone looking to get improved performance if moving up from crop - they will go to FF. Why get APS-H when FF does everything better and has lenses made for it? The answer is again - simple. There is no reason. I would never consider it. If I am unhappy with my crop APS-C, I will get a FF camera. I believe the vast majority of folks feel the same.

BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!

No, you have another recommendation for a $5,000+ 100MP Full Frame Body.
Full Frame is NOT compatible with the concept of giving people maximum pixel density at a reasonable cost. Not even remotely close.

So now we are after maximum pixel density at a reasonable cost? Have you heard of Olympus and u4/3?

I’m convinced no one actually read either the petittion or anything else I wrote.
This is the third or fourth time I’ve made the focus on Pixel Density abundandtly clear.

Don, here’s your turn with the Cap of Shame.

SHAME ON YOU! For being so willfully ignorant and blatantly antagonsitic toward a basic photographic principle that even YOU would benefit from.

SHAME ON YOU!!!

It seems you are unable to put forward a cogent argument of your main point. If people repeatedly misunderstand what your point is perhaps you have not explained it clearly enough - as far as I can see it is you who keeps on bringing in things irrelevant to your central point (first of all the relevance of APS-H and now noise) so it is any wonder the conversation keeps getting diverted?

 

[neuroanatomist]

Assuming the same level of technology, the major factor affecting noise is not the size of the sensor, it is the size of the photo site....

Nope. The size of the senor determines image noise. Consider the 7DII and 5Ds(R), which are essentially equivalent in technology (released a year apart, both prior to on-chip ADC), and have essentially identical pixel sizes (7DII is 20 MP APS-C x 2.56 = 51 MP which is the 5Ds). Compare the ISO noise (e.g. P2P or DxO), and you'll see that the 5Ds is a stop or more better than the 7DII.

Exposure is determined by light per unit area falling on the sensor (that's why ISO 100 f/2.8 gives the same metered shutter speed on a 1/2.3" PowerShot, m4/3, APS-C, FF, and medium format). Image noise is determined by (inversely proportional to) total light gathered, and a larger sensor gathers more total light.

It changes nothing, people will go for crop if they are after lower cost, and if they are after higher quality they will go for FF....

Except for the four people who want APS-H. Four. :

 

[9VIII]

It seems you are unable to put forward a cogent argument of your main point. If people repeatedly misunderstand what your point is perhaps you have not explained it clearly enough - as far as I can see it is you who keeps on bringing in things irrelevant to your central point (first of all the relevance of APS-H and now noise) so it is any wonder the conversation keeps getting diverted?

I’m not sure if it’s possible to avoid when everyone is seeing red everywhere and charges blindly just because someone said “APS-H”.
It’s actually almost as amusing as it is depressing to watch.

 

[neuroanatomist]

So now we are after maximum pixel density at a reasonable cost? Have you heard of Olympus and u4/3?

If one is after maximum pixel density at a reasonable cost, look no further than Nokia. The Lumia 1020 has a 41 MP 1/1.5" sensor, which means a pixel pitch of 1.12 µm, and it cost $700 at launch. Canon's 120 MP APS-H sensor has a pixel pitch of 2.20 µm, and it would cost way more than $700 if actually used in an ILC (which it won't be).

 

[Don Haines]

WAIT A MINUTE! A 1 stop faster lens on a crop camera is one stop faster than a 1 stop slower lens of a FF camera!

You’re still fundamentally confused about how sensor noise works.

Oh, so now we are talking about sensor noise? Assuming the same level of technology, the major factor affecting noise is not the size of the sensor, it is the size of the photo site.... and for a fixed number of pixels on a chip, FF will beat APS-H. It changes nothing, people will go for crop if they are after lower cost, and if they are after higher quality they will go for FF....

Don, seriously, just go re-think your life.

I shall take your advice and rethink my life....

hmmmmm........
I have a comfortable home by the river....
about to retire from a great job.....
taking the day off because I have too much accumulated holidays....
a partner who is smart, interesting, and drop-dead gorgeous...
financially set for life....
sitting on a comfortable chair in my hunting blind, with a good book, and waiting for a flock of bufflehead ducks to wander closer...
sipping a cup of tea....
trying to hold a reasonable conversation with someone on the web....

GOT IT! I KNOW WHAT I AM GOING TO CHANGE!

 

[SecureGSM]

Don,

You have to admit that the “sipping a cup of tea....” line was way too much. You need to rethink your life. a cup of coffee instead is what you were missing...

I shall take your advice and rethink my life....

hmmmmm........
I have a comfortable home by the river....
about to retire from a great job.....
taking the day off because I have too much accumulated holidays....
a partner who is smart, interesting, and drop-dead gorgeous...
financially set for life....
sitting on a comfortable chair in my hunting blind, with a good book, and waiting for a flock of bufflehead ducks to wander closer...
sipping a cup of tea....
trying to hold a reasonable conversation with someone on the web....

GOT IT! I KNOW WHAT I AM GOING TO CHANGE!

 

[9VIII]

The speed of the mirror would change a bit, all depending on how much Canon wants to invest in the mirror box, but that’s not really much of an issue.

So you are agreeing then that the price difference will be more than the $300 you originally claimed?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/892349-DEMO/Canon_8035b002_EOS_6D_Digital_Camera.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081808-DEMO/canon_9128b002_eos_7d_mark_ii.html

The 6D is now cheaper than the 7D2, APS-H doesn’t “need” to change the price at all. The only thing Canon cares about is perceived value compared to other Canon products. The way everyone here is talking a 7D2 with APS-H should be cheaper than APS-C.
The 5DSR carries a $400 premium over the 5D4. As far as manufacturing cost goes it’s ridiculous when the 5DSR is basically just a 5D3 with more resolution, and the 5D3 now sells for under $2500.

The principle:

It changes nothing, people will go for crop if they are after lower cost, and if they are after higher quality they will go for FF....

Except for the four people who want APS-H. Four. :

Holds true with APS-H, regardless of how many people here and now may think that any of this is a good idea.

So now we are after maximum pixel density at a reasonable cost? Have you heard of Olympus and u4/3?

If one is after maximum pixel density at a reasonable cost, look no further than Nokia. The Lumia 1020 has a 41 MP 1/1.5" sensor, which means a pixel pitch of 1.12 µm, and it cost $700 at launch. Canon's 120 MP APS-H sensor has a pixel pitch of 2.20 µm, and it would cost way more than $700 if actually used in an ILC (which it won't be).

At least M4/3 is actually designed for photography.
Nikon 1 bodies give 148MP equivalent, but Nikon’s problem was they wanted to charge the same for a 7.4x crop factor as what everyone else did for APS-C, it made M4/3 look good, and still does, but I have serious doubts we’ll ever see a 30MP M4/3 system either.
Not that it really matters what M4/3 does, I have Canon glass, Canon still makes the best Macro lens, this system should have the best Macro body.
24MP APS-C has been standard across most of the industry for almost five years now, I just wish manufacturers would quit dragging their feet on pixel density and get to something with serious gains over long existing products (which even the 5DS is not).

 

[9VIII]

WAIT A MINUTE! A 1 stop faster lens on a crop camera is one stop faster than a 1 stop slower lens of a FF camera!

You’re still fundamentally confused about how sensor noise works.

Oh, so now we are talking about sensor noise? Assuming the same level of technology, the major factor affecting noise is not the size of the sensor, it is the size of the photo site.... and for a fixed number of pixels on a chip, FF will beat APS-H. It changes nothing, people will go for crop if they are after lower cost, and if they are after higher quality they will go for FF....

Don, seriously, just go re-think your life.

I shall take your advice and rethink my life....

hmmmmm........
I have a comfortable home by the river....
about to retire from a great job.....
taking the day off because I have too much accumulated holidays....
a partner who is smart, interesting, and drop-dead gorgeous...
financially set for life....
sitting on a comfortable chair in my hunting blind, with a good book, and waiting for a flock of bufflehead ducks to wander closer...
sipping a cup of tea....
trying to hold a reasonable conversation with someone on the web....

GOT IT! I KNOW WHAT I AM GOING TO CHANGE!

You’ll Give The Fifth Petition Signature!

 

[Mikehit]

The 6D is now cheaper than the 7D2, APS-H doesn’t “need” to change the price at all. The only thing Canon cares about is perceived value compared to other Canon products. The way everyone here is talking a 7D2 with APS-H should be cheaper than APS-C.
The 5DSR carries a $400 premium over the 5D4. As far as manufacturing cost goes it’s ridiculous when the 5DSR is basically just a 5D3 with more resolution, and the 5D3 now sells for under $2500.

So you think you should base prices of a new model on the street price of a model that has already been superceded and is out of production? LOL!
You clearly know zip about manufacturing, development costs and marketing. But I guess you are now going to say how my concentrating on a point that you raise is a distraction from your main argument - but am not sure anyone can say with any confidence of what that is any more: it may have been wanting a 120MP APS-H camera that only 4 people out of 3,000 agreed with. Or was it something to do with 'I want a 150MP FF camera that shoots at 10 fps and costs the same as the current 7D2' to which I say 'don't we all'

Don;t we all.

 

[dak723]

24MP APS-C has been standard across most of the industry for almost five years now, I just wish manufacturers would quit dragging their feet on pixel density and get to something with serious gains over long existing products (which even the 5DS is not).

Maybe they are "dragging their feet" because they would rather not put out a higher MP crop camera that has lower DR and more noise and needs a tripod to get a good pic that takes advantage of those extra pixels. Just maybe - because they understand the pros and cons of adding more MPs - they are reaching the practical limit of pixel density.

 

[scyrene]

WAIT A MINUTE! A 1 stop faster lens on a crop camera is one stop faster than a 1 stop slower lens of a FF camera!

You’re still fundamentally confused about how sensor noise works.

Oh, so now we are talking about sensor noise? Assuming the same level of technology, the major factor affecting noise is not the size of the sensor, it is the size of the photo site.... and for a fixed number of pixels on a chip, FF will beat APS-H. It changes nothing, people will go for crop if they are after lower cost, and if they are after higher quality they will go for FF....

Don, seriously, just go re-think your life.

I shall take your advice and rethink my life....

hmmmmm........
I have a comfortable home by the river....
about to retire from a great job.....
taking the day off because I have too much accumulated holidays....
a partner who is smart, interesting, and drop-dead gorgeous...
financially set for life....
sitting on a comfortable chair in my hunting blind, with a good book, and waiting for a flock of bufflehead ducks to wander closer...
sipping a cup of tea....
trying to hold a reasonable conversation with someone on the web....

GOT IT! I KNOW WHAT I AM GOING TO CHANGE!

BUFFLEHEAD!

 

[scyrene]

The reason you’ll never see an APS-H sensor on a 7D is it would make the 1D obsolete for the vast majority of customers. In a sports body APS-H is too capable, Canon can’t risk it.
As a 4fps detail machine, that’s not threatening to the core market for their flagship body, so APS-H would be fine.

If they simply make a high-res (100Mpx+) FF body - you can easily crop to APS-H or APS-C, or even 1" and still have plenty of resolution.

You’re missing the point. “Plenty of resolution” isn’t good enough, this is about maximizing density. Like I said before, 97MP APS-C would be the second best option, there just isn’t any good reason not to use the full APS-H prototype as it was demonstrated.

AND a 100MP Full Frame body would cost $5,000 USD “Because Marketing”.
Marketing is one of the biggest advantages of APS-H, they can do things with it that Canon would never allow with Full Frame.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm genuinely perplexed by the whole discussion. What marketing advantages does APS-H have? How do you market that camera, especially to people who don't feel defined by, or care much about, sensor size?

Look at the 5Ds, now tell me what they’re going to charge for something with twice as much resolution.

Erm that's not a marketing advantage for APS-H. They made a prototype APS-H 120MP sensor for their own reasons, generally explained as being the easiest for a prototype at the time, but that doesn't mean they are limited to APS-H in applying that high pixel density. At that density, a FF sensor would have even more pixels! So you didn't answer my question. What marketing advantage does APS-H have, as opposed to FF and APS-C?

From this interminable discussion, you *seem* to think it is at a 'sweet spot' for price versus light-gathering/resolution, but that seems entirely arbitrary and subjective.

 

[9VIII]

Look at the 5Ds, now tell me what they’re going to charge for something with twice as much resolution.

Erm that's not a marketing advantage for APS-H. They made a prototype APS-H 120MP sensor for their own reasons, generally explained as being the easiest for a prototype at the time, but that doesn't mean they are limited to APS-H in applying that high pixel density. At that density, a FF sensor would have even more pixels! So you didn't answer my question. What marketing advantage does APS-H have, as opposed to FF and APS-C?

From this interminable discussion, you *seem* to think it is at a 'sweet spot' for price versus light-gathering/resolution, but that seems entirely arbitrary and subjective.

My answer was fully adequate, but I guess you're too blind and ignorant to figure it out.

When they introduced the 5DS they increased the price significantly over its existing equivalent. The 5DS uses the 5D3 Body with almost exactly the same features, but it has a slower burst and more resolution.
A year later the 5D4 comes out and it actually has even more "pixels" than the 5DS due to Dual Pixel AF, the 5D4 sensor is even more expensive to produce, and the body has more features, but they charge less because it's marketed with less resolution.

"Marketing" pure and simple.
There will never be a Full Frame Sensor with more resolution selling for less than the latest 5DS series body.

 

[9VIII]

they would rather not put out a higher MP crop camera that has lower DR

Well we know Canon doesn't care about that after the 6D2.

and more noise

That's been debunked a million times already. :

needs a tripod to get a good pic that takes advantage of those extra pixels.

And that's not entirely true either because anyone shooting fast action is using an appropriate shutter speed already. Wildlife and action oriented events are applicable to this sensor (and high ISO generally prohibits the best DR anyway).
Even if it's only a small advantage in some applications, Canon has been selling people on small advantages for decades already.
The entire EOS ecosystem would be much better off having this option.

Just maybe - because they understand the pros and cons of adding more MPs - they are reaching the practical limit of pixel density.

"Just maybe" you've been so inundated with the blatant ignorance being spewed like a fountain all over this thread that you've forgotten that you're not the only one who takes pictures, and one of the greatest assets of the EOS ecosystem is that they support a wider variety of technical shooting styles better than any other system ever made.
They have the opportunity to enhance that reputation with an extra high resolution crop sensor.

We are Multiple Orders of Magnitude away from reaching the practical limits of pixel density. The only practical limit that anyone cares about, as I've said many times now, is memory card writing speed.

 

[9VIII]

The 6D is now cheaper than the 7D2, APS-H doesn’t “need” to change the price at all.

It is not logical to compare the cost of the current top-of-the-line crop camera to an obsolete bottom of the line FF camera and to try to use that as price justification of a third format.

Don't discredit the 6D sensor, a lot of people prefer it over the 5D3 sensor.
And the 7D2 is about to be discontinued, it's no spring chicken.

 

[9VIII]

The 6D is now cheaper than the 7D2, APS-H doesn’t “need” to change the price at all. The only thing Canon cares about is perceived value compared to other Canon products. The way everyone here is talking a 7D2 with APS-H should be cheaper than APS-C.
The 5DSR carries a $400 premium over the 5D4. As far as manufacturing cost goes it’s ridiculous when the 5DSR is basically just a 5D3 with more resolution, and the 5D3 now sells for under $2500.

So you think you should base prices of a new model on the street price of a model that has already been superceded and is out of production? LOL!

No no, that's what you and everyone who hates APS-H thinks, because APS-H is worthless, so really canon wouldn't even be able to give it away if they tried.
Can't get the right focal length ratio on standard zoom lenses, the whole thing is no good.

 

[9VIII]

At this point I'm pretty sure 90% of the thread is already re-tread so there's no point in anyone posting anything else when everything you could possibly want to ask has already been answered.

Please for goodness sake, read the petition, read the thread.

To summarize:

-Sony Eats Stars

-People made a petition for that, so maybe petitions can work for Canon?

-New Petition for Canon:

https://www.change.org/p/canon-inc-the-greatest-producer-of-photographic-tools-ever-convince-canon-to-implement-the-120-megapixel-aps-h-sensor-in-a-reasonably-priced-camera


-Some people don't like APS-H because it's not a currently produced format

-Some people don't like what APS-H does to lenses

-Some people are too lazy to look up the prices on affordable EF lenses

-Some people think APS-C users don't care about sensor size.

-Some people are really confused about what determines sensor noise

-Some people think Canon would just love to sell a 100+ Megapixel Full Frame body for less than what the 5DS costs

-Half the people posting don't like high resolution sensors at all because their own shooting styles are so limited

-The rest of the thread is back-peddling and running in circles because no-one wants to give an honest moment's thought to the subject or put any effort into composing a response, so all of the questions resurface multiple times over the course of 8 pages.

 

[BillB]

At this point I'm pretty sure 90% of the thread is already re-tread so there's no point in anyone posting anything else when everything you could possibly want to ask has already been answered.

Please for goodness sake, read the petition, read the thread.

To summarize:

-Sony Eats Stars

-People made a petition for that, so maybe petitions can work for Canon?

-New Petition for Canon:

https://www.change.org/p/canon-inc-the-greatest-producer-of-photographic-tools-ever-convince-canon-to-implement-the-120-megapixel-aps-h-sensor-in-a-reasonably-priced-camera


-Some people don't like APS-H because it's not a currently produced format

-Some people don't like what APS-H does to lenses

-Some people are too lazy to look up the prices on affordable EF lenses

-Some people think APS-C users don't care about sensor size.

-Some people are really confused about what determines sensor noise

-Some people think Canon would just love to sell a 100+ Megapixel Full Frame body for less than what the 5DS costs

-Half the people posting don't like high resolution sensors at all because their own shooting styles are so limited

-The rest of the thread is back-peddling and running in circles because no-one wants to give an honest moment's thought to the subject or put any effort into composing a response, so all of the questions resurface multiple times over the course of 8 pages.

Maybe people keep repeating the questions because they haven't gotten any understandable answers.

 

[9VIII]

At this point I'm pretty sure 90% of the thread is already re-tread so there's no point in anyone posting anything else when everything you could possibly want to ask has already been answered.

Please for goodness sake, read the petition, read the thread.

To summarize:

-Sony Eats Stars

-People made a petition for that, so maybe petitions can work for Canon?

-New Petition for Canon:

https://www.change.org/p/canon-inc-the-greatest-producer-of-photographic-tools-ever-convince-canon-to-implement-the-120-megapixel-aps-h-sensor-in-a-reasonably-priced-camera


-Some people don't like APS-H because it's not a currently produced format

-Some people don't like what APS-H does to lenses

-Some people are too lazy to look up the prices on affordable EF lenses

-Some people think APS-C users don't care about sensor size.

-Some people are really confused about what determines sensor noise

-Some people think Canon would just love to sell a 100+ Megapixel Full Frame body for less than what the 5DS costs

-Half the people posting don't like high resolution sensors at all because their own shooting styles are so limited

-The rest of the thread is back-peddling and running in circles because no-one wants to give an honest moment's thought to the subject or put any effort into composing a response, so all of the questions resurface multiple times over the course of 8 pages.

Maybe people keep repeating the questions because they haven't gotten any understandable answers.

No they all understand the situation quite well, it’s a game of “poke the bear” and behaving reasonably just ends the game.
(You will find forumites here playing this game every so often, it can be one of the more memorable aspects of the community as long as no-one gets banned... Or is that “especially if someone gets banned”. Either way, people just like to run their mouths every once in a while)

 

[Mikehit]

No they all understand the situation quite well, it’s a game of “poke the bear” and behaving reasonably just ends the game.
(You will find forumites here playing this game every so often, it can be one of the more memorable aspects of the community as long as no-one gets banned... Or is that “especially if someone gets banned”. Either way, people just like to run their mouths every once in a while)

It is more like someone asks a question and does not get the answer they like the sound of. So they repeat the question are amazed when the same answer comes back.So they expand the argument and when those are rebuffed claim the respondents are missing the main point. So they then claim the respondents trolls and unable to understand a simple point and how the respondents must be blind fanboys unable to comprehend the benefits of what is being said.

So I will put this as simply as possible:
I do not disagree with your desire for more MP with less noise and more DR. Just because I do not see an imperative for 120MP does not mean I wold turn it down if I got them
I do disagree with you that APS-H would be competitively priced with the APS-C, and at the same price (or cheaper) as a 4-year old near-end-of-line FF model. You may as wel ask why the 7D2 does not cost $800 instead of $1400.
I do disagree is that Canon is likely to ever resurrect the APS-H.

You talk about 'facts' and 'making sense' whereas all you have is conjecture, supposition and wishful thinking. Your poll shows that APS-H is a dead duck so why you keep banging on about it is beyond me.
I have no problems with wishful thinking but when that morphs into fact, there is a problem.