The End of the DSLR?

neonlight said:
I suspect the one thing holding up mirrorless is the global shutter sensor. Once Canon have a GS they will not need a mechanical shutter nor a mirror, so this should tip the balance. Global shutter sensors are trickier to design and need more transistors than the basic, so may be more expensive. MILC plus EVF will no doubt occur sometime soon and will slowly displace DSLR ... I think.

Hmmm, I guess I don't get it. Global shutter and mirrorless are mutually exclusive. Currently, none of the still cameras I'm aware of have a global shutter, aka they all produce a rolling shutter affect as anything above max flash sync speed is a slit moving across the shutter via first and second curtain.

AND all the mirrorless cameras I'm familiar with still use a mechanical shutter. They may have electronic shutter option, but then the rolling affect is often worse because you are limited by the sensor readout which is often slower than what the mechanical shutter produces. In short the EF does not freeze action very well.

No, the global shutter will be a huge step forward for stills cameras, regardless whether there is a mirrorbox or not.
 
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unfocused said:
Yes, I'm sure the first DSLR cancelled with be the successor to a camera that consistently outsold every other full frame camera body on the market.

Just curious if you have a source?

I've got a suspicion that in the higher priced camera market (let's say, over $US1,000), mirrorless cameras are already selling better than DSLRs. But this is just based on what I see people using, blogs, images that get posted online etc - not actual sales data. Does anyone have any info on camera model sales numbers?
 
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Hillsilly said:
unfocused said:
Yes, I'm sure the first DSLR cancelled with be the successor to a camera that consistently outsold every other full frame camera body on the market.

Just curious if you have a source?

I've got a suspicion that in the higher priced camera market (let's say, over $US1,000), mirrorless cameras are already selling better than DSLRs. But this is just based on what I see people using, blogs, images that get posted online etc - not actual sales data. Does anyone have any info on camera model sales numbers?

No numbers here but i have some pretty solid evidence to say mirrorless cameras are only a very small player in the high end camera feild. I work on an island that is a very popular tourist destination (especially for chinese travellers) and i can tell you that high end mirrorless are vastly outnumbered by canon and nikon DSLRs. I would say at about a 50 to 1 ratio. As far as happy snapper tourists go DSLRs and small mirrorless are fairly similar.
 
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Interesting. Here in Brisbane, I'm not sure that I've even seen a 5DIV or 1DX2 in the wild. But I see a lot of new mirrorless cameras being used. Even amongst the photographic communities that I'm involved with, it is as though FF DSLR production stopped in 2015. I'm struggling to think of a single person who has bought a new FF DSLR in the last year. But I personally know a lot of people who have picked up mirrorless cameras recently.

Don't get me wrong - I am still noticing a lot of new DSLRs (eg 1300Ds). And of course, as far as usage goes, there are a lot more DSLRs out there than mirrorless cameras. This is really noticeable when you go to Sporting events (such as rally car racing), where everyone has a DSLR. But, I get the impression that Canon has some local issues with FF DSLR sales.
 
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Well I'm selling my M3. It is a superb little camera system, but..........

I have the G1X. For casual shooting it has a better lens than the 18-55, faster and better reach, the G1XII greatly so. The 24 MP sensor produces unneccesarily big files when shooting in raw, especially so when the pictures from that camera are unlikely to be reproduced at a large size. Interpolation down doesn't improve colour definition much at all, which is odd when you consider how the Bayer array works, but then I guess it's because "low resolution" sensors are pretty high res really ! The sensor craves high quality lenses and solid technique to show the full potential of the sensor. This means using the adapter and larger, heavier lenses than the M ones, with the exception of the 22 mil. This is all well and good if it's your only camera, but I have FF dslrs as well.

I just don't like the EVF. I find the delay really irritating when switching from EVF to rear screen. I shot a wedding reception from the air and took the M3 because it was a tiny 2 seat aerobatic aircraft with no spare space, but it has a canopy that could be opened in flight. Five minutes in with the delay on the finder I began wishing I hadn't. The info through the EVF doesn't make up for the other shortfalls for me. With these modern cameras now the meter is always going to get you close shooting in raw, especially if you couple that with years of exposure experience. The focus peaking is not as useful as a 's' screen in a dslr, personally speaking anyway. I don't like the power consumption. I don't like how in order to conserve power you have to keep switching the camera off.

The dslr is just so instantaneous. The view is just there, all the time, and its real life. It doesn't get in the way of shooting. I find the EVF does. The A7 I used for a while was no better, so it's not just Canon's implementation of EVF. A dslr seems to go on for ever with one battery charge.

When the day comes that EVF is indistinguishable from a good OVF, in every way, and is comparable in power consumption, then this threads title might have some truth in it, but until then, no way for many. I think that one of the biggest advantages of mirrorless at the moment is that the camera is less prone to damage from knocks. Despite all the effort that does into making a dslr tough, drop it and the chances are your AF will be out. I was at Swallow Falls in Wales a while ago, it was pouring with rain and I dropped my G1X. The camera bounced off the concrete plinth that was supporting a viewing bench, shot through the safety fencing onto the rock beyond, and then began bouncing end over end down the cliff face towards the river a few hundred feet below. Fortunately a hollow trunk of an old tree stopped it, as it bounced inside. So I had to decide whether my life was worth the £250 that the camera was worth. Being a total skinflint I decided it wasn't, so climbed over the fencing, and down the cliff to retrieve it. Despite a dent in the corner of the top plate the camera is absolutely fine, no issues, no de-centering of the lens. I guess the fact it was switched off and the lens home may have helped. But I digress......

The EVFs should be putting pressure on the Canon and Nikon to put decent pentaprisms in their smaller cameras. I'd be very interested in the SL2 if it had a really good finder.
 
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AcutancePhotography said:
jolyonralph said:
I had an interesting discussion last night with a guy who has more contacts than I do in the Canon world.

So this guy you talked to was not a Canon employee, but a guy that knows another guy that may or may not actually work at Canon? We don't know what guy at Canon would actually know about this, nor do we know if your guy's guy even knows this yet another guy.

This sounds like one step ahead of asking a random person on the street.

Crap. Now we are in deep trouble. Ralphie said, "a guy." Now we know he meant "they". Oh nooooooooo! ;)
 
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As long as I can keep my future vintage EF glass and use it on the future 3D Mark VIII, I don't care whether there is a mirror or not. *****As long as IQ doesn't suffer and AF gets even better.*****
 
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Hillsilly said:
unfocused said:
Yes, I'm sure the first DSLR cancelled with be the successor to a camera that consistently outsold every other full frame camera body on the market.

Just curious if you have a source?

I've got a suspicion that in the higher priced camera market (let's say, over $US1,000), mirrorless cameras are already selling better than DSLRs. But this is just based on what I see people using, blogs, images that get posted online etc - not actual sales data. Does anyone have any info on camera model sales numbers?

No source, but I think that the 6D has been on the market longer than any other currently available FF camera except the 5DIII, and it has/is lower priced than other available FF DSLR. So, it wouldn't surprise me if more 6Ds have been sold than anything else.
 
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Hillsilly said:
unfocused said:
Yes, I'm sure the first DSLR cancelled with be the successor to a camera that consistently outsold every other full frame camera body on the market.

Just curious if you have a source?

I've got a suspicion that in the higher priced camera market (let's say, over $US1,000), mirrorless cameras are already selling better than DSLRs. But this is just based on what I see people using, blogs, images that get posted online etc - not actual sales data. Does anyone have any info on camera model sales numbers?

I have a suspicion that if that were true, Sony wouldn't be bleeding money like Carrie.

But that's just a suspicion.
 
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Hillsilly said:
unfocused said:
Yes, I'm sure the first DSLR cancelled with be the successor to a camera that consistently outsold every other full frame camera body on the market.

Just curious if you have a source?

I've got a suspicion that in the higher priced camera market (let's say, over $US1,000), mirrorless cameras are already selling better than DSLRs. But this is just based on what I see people using, blogs, images that get posted online etc - not actual sales data. Does anyone have any info on camera model sales numbers?

Well, I've been checking Amazon sales numbers occasionally since you posted this and, alas, not close to true. The Sony A6500 has consistently been in the top 5 ILC sellers, but, usually it is the only one. Canon 80D, Canon 6D and Nikon D750 are there a lot, This afternoon Canon 5d Mark IV was there as well, but sometimes it is the Mark III.
 
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Hillsilly said:
Interesting. Here in Brisbane, I'm not sure that I've even seen a 5DIV or 1DX2 in the wild. But I see a lot of new mirrorless cameras being used. Even amongst the photographic communities that I'm involved with, it is as though FF DSLR production stopped in 2015. I'm struggling to think of a single person who has bought a new FF DSLR in the last year. But I personally know a lot of people who have picked up mirrorless cameras recently.

Don't get me wrong - I am still noticing a lot of new DSLRs (eg 1300Ds). And of course, as far as usage goes, there are a lot more DSLRs out there than mirrorless cameras. This is really noticeable when you go to Sporting events (such as rally car racing), where everyone has a DSLR. But, I get the impression that Canon has some local issues with FF DSLR sales.

I was recently at the Grand Canyon and the Page, Arizona area. My very unofficial observation was that DSLR's (typically Rebels or entry level Nikons) outnumbered mirrorless cameras by maybe 15-1. Of course the vast majority of people were using cell phones, but DSLR's strongly outnumbered mirrorless. On the photo tour I took of Upper Antelope Canyon, there was a pretty even mix of higher end Canon and Nikon equipment (4 photographers using each system) and one Sony A7RII.
 
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bholliman said:
Hillsilly said:
Interesting. Here in Brisbane, I'm not sure that I've even seen a 5DIV or 1DX2 in the wild. But I see a lot of new mirrorless cameras being used. Even amongst the photographic communities that I'm involved with, it is as though FF DSLR production stopped in 2015. I'm struggling to think of a single person who has bought a new FF DSLR in the last year. But I personally know a lot of people who have picked up mirrorless cameras recently.

Don't get me wrong - I am still noticing a lot of new DSLRs (eg 1300Ds). And of course, as far as usage goes, there are a lot more DSLRs out there than mirrorless cameras. This is really noticeable when you go to Sporting events (such as rally car racing), where everyone has a DSLR. But, I get the impression that Canon has some local issues with FF DSLR sales.

I was recently at the Grand Canyon and the Page, Arizona area. My very unofficial observation was that DSLR's (typically Rebels or entry level Nikons) outnumbered mirrorless cameras by maybe 15-1. Of course the vast majority of people were using cell phones, but DSLR's strongly outnumbered mirrorless. On the photo tour I took of Upper Antelope Canyon, there was a pretty even mix of higher end Canon and Nikon equipment (4 photographers using each system) and one Sony A7RII.

My sleepy little small town camera club has 3 1DX MkII owners and probably a dozen 5D MkIV/III owners, along with two who own A7RII's. But it is predominantly the 6D, 7D MkI/II and Rebels.
 
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dak723 said:
Well, I've been checking Amazon sales numbers occasionally since you posted this and, alas, not close to true.

I thought of the same thing too, and looked at the most popular listings on Amazon. Adorama have a "popular results" feature, too. But then I realized that both of these best reflect US sales. And the USA seems a little out of step in relation to mirrorless adoption and sales.

Anyway, if you believe Amazon popularity rankings, the DSLRs is dead. Long live the Fuji Instax.
 
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bholliman said:
I was recently at the Grand Canyon and the Page, Arizona area. My very unofficial observation was that DSLR's (typically Rebels or entry level Nikons) outnumbered mirrorless cameras by maybe 15-1. ...
That was just because the MILC were sooooo small, you couldn't recognize them ;)
 
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LDS said:
unfocused said:
After all, to say that a company is going to make a major change that "would make a lot of people unhappy" is a pretty good indicator that the person knows absolutely nothing. Companies do not go out and purposely do things to make "a lot of people unhappy."

Actually, Canon already did when it switched from the FD mount to the EF one. Suddenly, all your precious lenses couldn't be used on new cameras and you had to buy them again (Canon had good reasons for such choice, but it was expensive for customers).

There are several factors that weight against a mount replacement:

1. The market size has increased exponentially in the last few years, meaning there are a lot more customers, cameras, and lenses out there.

2. The "screw me twice, shame on me" factor. A good example would be the Apple Macintosh - the hardware architecture was changed twice, and now it's a niche product.

E.g. I have a 5DmkIII, 16-35mm & 24-70mm & 70-200mm f/2.8L mkII. That's expensive equipment which will become worthless if Canon changes mounts. I will not repeat if Canon changes mount again. A whiff of it, and my plans of upgrading the 16-35mm to mkIII go out the window.

3. Third party manufacturers willingness to develop compatible lenses.

Companies like Sigma and Tamron are invested in the Canon brand two ways - manufacturing EF lenses, and customers willing to buy them. Having those ditching the Canon brand in fear of losing those again will be bad for the Canon products ecosystem.


There's a reason EOS M uses EF mount with a shorter flange distance. Merely having two mounts coexisting may cause customers think the EF mount is being transitioned out, which is sufficient to scare people off.
 
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Mirrorless is the future.

Mirrorless, even the Sony A9, is still in its infancy. Although, the A9 finally makes a few key advancements that brings mirrorless to the table for the first time, barely. Overall, mirrorless needs many generations before it is viable enough to displace DSLR in a serious way.

There are still more cons than pros to mirrorless, regardless of how unique and awesome certain features are (such as the viewfinders).

The cons mostly impact real pros.

With the rise and take over of camera market by cell phone users, the market for dedicated cameras is ever pushing upward toward the Pro range.

Mirrorless take over will be slow - because mirrorless ONLY features must prove to be of greater worth. This is a tough, slow sell.

Physics dictates that certain lenses cannot be made much smaller. And that certain lenses are required to achieve certain perspectives and looks in imagery. Their size and weight eliminates the benefit of smaller size and weight of mirrorless bodies.


To add to that, and to the cons that exclusively impact pros -- is the fact that some people do not want a smaller camera. They actually want a physically larger camera that is comfortable to hold all day, that fits the hand. Mirrorless options must be made larger (at least as big as a 5D4 w/ battery grip) to appeal to pros. I'd like to see 1DX sized mirrorless rig.


Disagree? I challenge you to mount a 70-200 2.8 and a 24-70 2.8 on your camera and hold it while shooting a minimum of 8 hours to simulate a wedding day or festival event. Don't forget putting a real flash on top. Tell me how your hand feels after that trying to hold onto the point-and-shoot/travel style body of the current mirrorless cameras. Yeah, and you'll need about 7 batteries too.

These bodies do not have a dedicated grip. Instead, you hold onto the end of the camera body. There is also the poor placement of controls, and cramped spacing. This is a big problem for mirrorless. Mirrorless will have to be introduced into DSLR sized bodies before mirrorless can conquer DSLRs. That is just 1 of many prerequisites that has to be met before the writing is on the wall for the demise of DSLR.


******


I would like to see a future where the pro 35mm world has larger mirrorless camera bodies that accepts "sensor backs" like the medium format cameras do but of course on a smaller scale. This way, companies like Canon and Nikon, who are experts in photography - can focus on photography, not sensor design which is for the tech geeks and semiconductor industry. Decoupling the sensor from the body will be a comeback to the days of film where people had choice. Kodak vs Fuji becomes Sony vs Canon or Sony vs. Toshiba

Sensor manufacturers who specialize in this work become the new makers of film.

This is extremely unlikely. Such a thing would require that the DSLR world has been totally wiped out. And consumers are not using any dedicated cameras anymore, even mirrorless ones. That requires cell phones get better to the point that they've fully overlapped with the abilities of entry level DSLR's and mirrorless. Dedicated cameras become the realm of pros. And as such, economy of scale means camera companies have scaled back to just a couple of bodies only and it isn't economical for them to design, build or buy sensors anymore. Also, it would mean that the feature set of bodies in that distant future will reach a sort of practical limit. Meaning, FPS will be so high - they can all do any sports photography. AF becomes moot with high density AF points and complete coverage. And all the bells and whistles are all in there already. So that the need to update bodies becomes less important. We can see the very beginning of that already in DSLR's. The update cycles getting longer for Canon and Nikon, slightly - but longer. This effect will grow fast, leading to slower update times. Because cameras are getting stacked with powerful abilities to capture images to the point that the only revolutionary change will be to pull stills from video. Mirrorless that reaches 20+ FPS is just about in that realm.

That said, these are possible conditions that might need to exist for the possibility of such to ever happen.

Or, 35mm just dies off entirely and pros stick with medium format, whose prices will come down.


We've only seen about 10 years or so of smartphones. What will the next 10 years look like for their cameras? The innovation and evolution in their cameras has been significant and shows no sign of slowing down.


They never have to be pro level. All they have to do is reach the ability to make a Rebel or D3400 level camera obsolete. I see this as possible in 10 years from now. Once soccer-dad's DSLR's and mirrorless for that matter are gone from stores and won't sell -- the floor falls out from under the entire dedicated camera market. Enthusiasts and Pros are subsidized by these users.


What will delay this will be the hobby market. Those users who want to be creative and create images that cell phones can't because physics dictates certain lenses be used for which cell phone will never be able to. How many and how big this market is could vary a lot. Will be mirrorless only of course. I think it depends on the industry's ability to educate and market to a whole new generation or users the value and merits of photography. They have to build the demand and interest. They have to do that by emphasizing the differences and the quality and creative potential. The more and more society becomes accepting of cell phone quality and "look" in images, the more certain the death of dedicated cameras are. As this goes on, cell phones will slowly be able to replicate *some* of the DSLR look ...will it be enough? Depends on the users. For some it will, for others it will always be compromises. In any event, this becomes yet another way cellphones chip away at dedicated camera potential buyers. A little piece there, a little piece here. They don't have to completely meet all capabilities and win over all users, just enough to reach a critical mass that sends the already declining dedicated camera market to its death. A point where it isn't economically sustainable to create these cameras any longer.

Social media and sharing is with us for the long term. To this day, not a single dedicated camera has a decent, easy and reliable way to quickly share photos. This is a massive problem and the biggest engine driving cell phones ahead. Looking at how pathetically slow the innovation of NEW features are in cameras (existing features are advancing very well), it isn't on the horizon in the slightest that a dedicated cameras from Canon or Nikon will become Android based or have the capability to join cellular networks full time like a phone to make sharing seamless. These companies have no interest either. This would cost consumers even more money and require data plans. The convenience just isn't there no matter what they do. In this regard, they are doomed. Simple as that. The same way the very first sensor technology signaled the end of film, this is tech that will end most of the dedicated cameras.


Back then, there were tons of deniers. Film will be around for 20 more years they said. Well, it happened a LOT faster than they thought. Naysayers criticized early digital for having worse quality than film and weren't convinced. This was 100% true early on. This was completely true while we watched film die a quick death. The same is true today. Cellphones have crappy quality - sure, but convenience trumps all out quality. Never underestimate the markets response to convenience.
 
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K said:
Mirrorless is the future.
And - ironically - has been since records began.

Thing is, nobody denies that eventually mirrorless is likely to gain the ascendency.

And many people couldn't care less either way as long as whatever technology we end up with does the job we want it to do.

The problem many have with mirrorless isn't the technology, it's the zealotry of its proponents now, when it is patently obvious to any informed observer that in the current state of the mirrorless art, it's more a liability than an advantage to anyone shooting subject matter more challenging than selfies and cat pics.

And yet the zealots try and cram them down our throats now, dismissing the self-evident current failings of the technology.

Less of that, and you'd find far more acceptance of mirrorless in conceptual terms.

Mirrorless for its own sake though? Pointless fanboyism.
 
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Hillsilly said:
Interesting. Here in Brisbane, I'm not sure that I've even seen a 5DIV or 1DX2 in the wild. But I see a lot of new mirrorless cameras being used. Even amongst the photographic communities that I'm involved with, it is as though FF DSLR production stopped in 2015. I'm struggling to think of a single person who has bought a new FF DSLR in the last year. But I personally know a lot of people who have picked up mirrorless cameras recently.

Don't get me wrong - I am still noticing a lot of new DSLRs (eg 1300Ds). And of course, as far as usage goes, there are a lot more DSLRs out there than mirrorless cameras. This is really noticeable when you go to Sporting events (such as rally car racing), where everyone has a DSLR. But, I get the impression that Canon has some local issues with FF DSLR sales.

Keep in mind the Sony a7r2 has been out for quite a bit longer than a 5d4. As for a 1dx2, I don't know that I've ever seen a full size DSLR outside of a studio/stadium/event
 
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