The End of the DSLR?

davidhfe

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Sep 9, 2015
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K said:
This way, companies like Canon and Nikon, who are experts in photography - can focus on photography, not sensor design which is for the tech geeks and semiconductor industry.

The integration of all these parts is what makes a camera. I think the analogy to film vastly understates the complexity of a modern DSLR. This'll be even more true in a mirrorless world where the imaging sensor pulls triple duty as the AF module and metering sensor.
 
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zim

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Oct 18, 2011
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K said:
[blaa blaa blaa]....Never underestimate the markets response to convenience.

What like simpler AF systems that make entry level cameras easier to use for the demographic it's aimed at even if the spec sheets show it up to be totally inferior to what other manufacturers offer? or the ergonomics of a camera that just make it easier to use than a camera with obviously superior specs? interesting point you raise given your comments in another thread.
 
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Jul 28, 2015
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zim said:
K said:
[blaa blaa blaa]....Never underestimate the markets response to convenience.

What like simpler AF systems that make entry level cameras easier to use for the demographic it's aimed at even if the spec sheets show it up to be totally inferior to what other manufacturers offer? or the ergonomics of a camera that just make it easier to use than a camera with obviously superior specs? interesting point you raise given your comments in another thread.

I've noticed that K's comments on other threads are far more considered. I suspect that on this thread he (I assume 'he' but could be 'she') has made statements that cannot be substantiated, and rather than admit he has overplayed his hand tries to reassert them and just keeps on digging.
 
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unfocused

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This is a logical, well-reasoned post that deserves some reasonable responses

K said:
Mirrorless is the future.

Possibly, but possibly not. However, I'd not going to let this questionable statement derail the conversation.

K said:
Mirrorless, even the Sony A9, is still in its infancy. Although, the A9 finally makes a few key advancements that brings mirrorless to the table for the first time, barely. Overall, mirrorless needs many generations before it is viable enough to displace DSLR in a serious way.

There are still more cons than pros to mirrorless, regardless of how unique and awesome certain features are (such as the viewfinders)... Mirrorless take over will be slow - because mirrorless ONLY features must prove to be of greater worth. This is a tough, slow sell...

...some people do not want a smaller camera. They actually want a physically larger camera that is comfortable to hold all day, that fits the hand...

...Tell me how your hand feels after that trying to hold onto the point-and-shoot/travel style body of the current mirrorless cameras. Yeah, and you'll need about 7 batteries too.

All correct.

K said:
I would like to see a future where the pro 35mm world has larger mirrorless camera bodies that accepts "sensor backs" like the medium format cameras do but of course on a smaller scale...

...This is extremely unlikely.

That's an understatement. Sensors and bodies are so closely intergrated that I doubt it would be possible, practical or even desirable to separate the two.

K said:
...the only revolutionary change will be to pull stills from video. Mirrorless that reaches 20+ FPS is just about in that realm.

Lots of people fantasize about this, but they don't understand stills or video. To be smooth, video relies on the intentional blurring of one image into another. Still capture requires each frame to be sharp. As one who shoots a lot of sports, I could never use a video frame capture because it would be too blurry. If I were shooting video, a shutter speed of 1/800th of a second to stop action is going to mean jerky video.


K said:
...Or, 35mm just dies off entirely and pros stick with medium format, whose prices will come down.

Not bloody likely. All of the progress being made is toward smaller sensors with greater resolution. Medium format is a tiny niche market and is likely to get even tinier, as full-frame cameras approach 100+ megapixels (which really isn't necessary for anything other than pixel-peeping anyway. Today's cameras are more than capable of producing billboard sized images (I've done so with the 5D and 1DX.)

Plus, there is no way to overcome physics and medium format requires huge lenses.

Smaller, better sensors are much more likely. That's where the research dollars are going and that's where the progress is being made.


K said:
We've only seen about 10 years or so of smartphones. What will the next 10 years look like for their cameras? The innovation and evolution in their cameras has been significant and shows no sign of slowing down.

True, as I said, that's where the research dollars are going.

K said:
...Those users who want to be creative and create images that cell phones can't because physics dictates certain lenses be used for which cell phone will never be able to. How many and how big this market is could vary a lot.

True

K said:
Will be mirrorless only of course.

False, or at least no evidence to support this.


K said:
I think it depends on the industry's ability to educate and market to a whole new generation or users the value and merits of photography. They have to build the demand and interest. They have to do that by emphasizing the differences and the quality and creative potential. ...A point where it isn't economically sustainable to create these cameras any longer.

Partly correct. It does depend on the industry's ability to market to a new generation. But, I don't think it can be assumed that the market now filled by DSLRs, etc., is necessarily unsustainable. The camera industry goes in waves. In the 60s and 70s interchangeable lens cameras were all the rage. Then they hit a long, dry spell until digital arrived. Canon and Nikon survived those dry spells and it's plainly evident that Canon is positioning itself to survive the next dry spell as well.

K said:
Social media and sharing is with us for the long term. To this day, not a single dedicated camera has a decent, easy and reliable way to quickly share photos. This is a massive problem and the biggest engine driving cell phones ahead.

I've been preaching this for years. In my view, Canon, Nikon and Sony have been rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic for years. Competing on "features" while failing to provide professionals and advanced amateurs with the basic features that everyone with a smart phone already has. People on this forum like to argue over trivia like dual card slots, when the real argument ought to be why can't any manufacturer seem to produce a camera that can help a professional using a $6,000 camera get a picture uploaded to the web in the same time and with the same ease that it takes a smartphone to do the job?
 
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Mar 26, 2014
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unfocused said:
K said:
Social media and sharing is with us for the long term. To this day, not a single dedicated camera has a decent, easy and reliable way to quickly share photos. This is a massive problem and the biggest engine driving cell phones ahead.

I've been preaching this for years. In my view, Canon, Nikon and Sony have been rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic for years. Competing on "features" while failing to provide professionals and advanced amateurs with the basic features that everyone with a smart phone already has. People on this forum like to argue over trivia like dual card slots, when the real argument ought to be why can't any manufacturer seem to produce a camera that can help a professional using a $6,000 camera get a picture uploaded to the web in the same time and with the same ease that it takes a smartphone to do the job?

I think you're wrong for three reasons:

1) Apps for cameras have already been discussed, and it's a bad idea. E.g. the camera manufacturer will have to make an open OS, and let social networks develop apps for them, opening the door to instabilities & viruses.

In addition, users will have to buy SIM cards, have a 2nd phone line, pay for it, deal with this 2nd line if the camera is stolen or lost, etc.

2) The simplest solution would actually be to implement a file server over wifi in the camera, and develop an app for the phone to upload the photos from the camera to social web site.

3) Solutions to share photos are available where users really want them, e.g. big sports events like the Olympics & photo magnets in weddings. My impression is the latter is losing it's attraction, with people being tired of covering their refrigerators with them.
 
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Michael Clark

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jolyonralph said:
The future goes beyond just speed. We already have face tracking, which works really well. What can we expect in future cameras? intelligent object recognition and tracking for example? So not just faces, but birds, balls, lions or whatever else is there. Face tracking is the 'consumer' end of the technology, but I see future cameras being sold not just on megapixels and focus speed but on the intelligence of the onboard systems in identifying items of interest and getting them in focus before you have even had time to think about what to focus on! Of course there will still be manual modes for us luddites :)

That's pretty much what iTR AF that has been around since the 1D X introduced in 2011 already does. It links the RGB+IR light meter that is effectively a low resolution CMOS sensor with the PDAF system to track items by shape and color. It has been further refined in the 7D Mark II (2014), 5Ds/5Ds R (2015), 1D X Mark II (2016), and 5D Mark IV (2016). Even the 80D has a version of iTR.
 
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Michael Clark

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Hflm said:
unfocused said:
neuroanatomist said:
Thanks, I needed a good laugh today. ;)

So true.

Mirrorless will replace SLRs when they can do everything a mirrored system can do, only better. So far, that is not the case. Will it be the case in five years? Who knows? And, really, who cares?

As long as I can look through a viewfinder, see my subject and compose my frame, what do I care if there is a mirror in the camera or not? Regardless, I highly doubt that the basic ergonomics of high-end interchangeable lens cameras are going to change all that much.

Of course, if the OP's story is at all close to true, it proves that his "friend" is something of an idiot. After all, to say that a company is going to make a major change that "would make a lot of people unhappy" is a pretty good indicator that the person knows absolutely nothing. Companies do not go out and purposely do things to make "a lot of people unhappy."
In my opinion, shooting weddings using a 5divs with A7rii for supplement (having used Nikon high-end and Fuji XT2, too, to get a perspective) the transition point is close, if not already there for most areas. We all know the A9 specs. Many things need to be investigated further in real competitive situations to see whether the laurels are deserved or not. But for the majority of users, when implemented in the A7iii or similar (no blackout, fully silent shutter, similarly quick start-up time, etc. etc.) I don't see a big reason to stay with DSLRs anymore. I find myself using the DPAF most of the time at weddings, to be honest. Why? Focus is accurate even at the outer focus points using my f1.4 lenses _all_ the time (even better with the A7rii). No back- or front-focus issues any more. You often have a single chance getting the focus right and I love using the A7rii since I know the image will _always_ be perfectly focused. Always. It is more quiet, exposure is closer to what I want in strong backlit situations resulting in less post-processing time (nice when dealing with thousands of images for a wedding). DPAF is already very good. I can easily imagine Canon using the same EF mount in a DPAF MILC or maybe an intermediate hybrid version. I wouldn't use a different mount. RED, BlackMagic, and others have active EF mount systems. Thom Hogan said that rumor at the NAB trade show has it that Panasonic will be going that direction with a new VariCam.

Isn't that what DPAF in Live View is? An intermediate hybrid version?
 
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Michael Clark

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jeffa4444 said:
Most Rebel camera purchasers (7D MKII / 80D excepted) only ever purchase the kit lens and maybe one other zoom to me that makes more logic and the 7D MKII / 80D users will be able to purchase the legacy EF-S lenses kept in production but not newer versions.

When did the 7D and x0D series become part of the "Rebel" line? Rebels are xx00D and xx0D model lines in other market areas.
 
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Michael Clark

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timmy_650 said:
I was thinking about this... the 1DxII they say it shoots 14 fps but in live view it shoots 16. So at 16 the mirror is locked up, so it is kinda running like a mirrorless camera right? so how does that affect the camera? what So the auto-focus run the same?

At 16fps the 1D X Mark II holds the same focus position for all of the frames in a burst. Since the mirror is locked up the PDAF system is obviously blind. Since the mechanical shutter is closed and resetting between frames the DPAF/CDAF is also blind between frames. It would take two cycles of the shutter to take an AF reading from the main sensor in between each frame. Using PDAF with the mirror is probably just as fast or faster than that because the PDAF system can be active at the same time the shutter curtains are being reset for the next frame.
 
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Michael Clark

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Hillsilly said:
unfocused said:
Yes, I'm sure the first DSLR cancelled with be the successor to a camera that consistently outsold every other full frame camera body on the market.

Just curious if you have a source?

I've got a suspicion that in the higher priced camera market (let's say, over $US1,000), mirrorless cameras are already selling better than DSLRs. But this is just based on what I see people using, blogs, images that get posted online etc - not actual sales data. Does anyone have any info on camera model sales numbers?

The last numbers I saw about a year ago had MILCs with a smaller share of the market more recently than they had back around 2012 when everyone who never shoots more than one frame every 5 minutes was jumping on the MILC bandwagon and proclaiming the imminent death of the DSLR. Then the "not yet ready for prime time" reality set in regarding MILCs' EVF lag, battery life, and lens availability (in terms of both focal length/max aperture and absolute image quality) that affect most working pros far more than those same issues affect the enthusiast crowd apart from the ones shooting sports/action. A few pros I know who dabbled with MILCs are back to using their 1D series and D3/4/5 series bodies for most of their paying jobs. If they even still have the MILCs, they use them for personal projects or vacations when they don't need or want a whole suitcase full of gear.
 
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Michael Clark

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CanonFanBoy said:
AcutancePhotography said:
jolyonralph said:
I had an interesting discussion last night with a guy who has more contacts than I do in the Canon world.

So this guy you talked to was not a Canon employee, but a guy that knows another guy that may or may not actually work at Canon? We don't know what guy at Canon would actually know about this, nor do we know if your guy's guy even knows this yet another guy.

This sounds like one step ahead of asking a random person on the street.

Crap. Now we are in deep trouble. Ralphie said, "a guy." Now we know he meant "they". Oh nooooooooo! ;)

Is Ralphie sure this "guy" doesn't work for Nikon? This sounds more like their recent strategy.
 
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