This is probably the best camera review I’ve ever watched – Gerald Undone with the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6

AlanF

Stay at home
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Aug 16, 2012
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Much truth here. I learned that from Star Trek. :) Well you don't have to over-deliver. Just give them what you already knew you could, but make it seem like it was a greater achievement. When you rely on hype, like so many businesses do, you're inevitably going to disappoint.
The corollary is that when you believe your own BS, you are finished.
 

slclick

PINHOLE
Dec 17, 2013
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I mean come on, the way this whole thing started right out of the gate with the 'end all be all' leaks and marketing? Of course the other shoe had to drop. Now, in the spirit of Undone-ness, does this matter to you and will it affect you as a user? Maybe you shoot stills in a manner which you will never see an error or experience any heat issues. Then I guess it would be the One Ring to Rule them All. Until the next one comes along ;)

Life is a feature not a bug
Firmware updates are religious holidays
They're modern little presents wrapped in clicks
Perfection is sterile
These irritations are gifts, vibrant and flawed
You are a Douglas Coupland novel
 

Starting out EOS R

EOS R5 - RF24-105mm F4L, RF70-200mm f2.8L
Feb 13, 2020
295
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Don't forget the company culture side of the argument. If someone high enough up in the chain doesn't want to admit fault nothing will change. I've worked for a large enough (US) company where managers would sabotage products to secure a promotion and get away with it.
Been there and seen that. So frustrating though, especially when these cameras, as good as they are already, could blow away the competition if it was a simple firmware update.
 

Michael Clark

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He hit it on the head about what ever is in denial about. As I said before, they marketed the video functions more than anything else without mentioning the limitations. But everyone thinks it is wrong of consumers to be upset or discouraged because Canon didnt say it would record in all modes without overheating. Marketing isnt about 100% transperancy, Canon knew they what they were hyping up. 4k60 shouldnt be overheating in 2020. Most couldnt give a crap about using the 8K right now aside from bragging rights.

Every official press release issued by Canon mentioned still photo features ahead of video features. Every single one. Even the one that was planned to be made at the NAB trade show that is a video oriented trade show.

It wasn't Canon that ignored the remarkable still imaging features (12/20 fps at 45MP, 8-stop IBIS, 5-series level weather/dust resistance, etc.) and talked about nothing but video.

It was the idiots on YouTube who think every stills/video hybrid should be a way for them to get a Rolls-Royce level video camera for a Toyota price.
 
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Michael Clark

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I don't do the video, but DAMN if that wasn't a detail laden mother lode of information. Very well done.

(Stills folks, just jump to 19:46 to the end for his general thoughts and buying recommendations.)

I have to concur with him. This is a great camera for a ton of people, but man did they botch the marketing of this. They should have led with:

Hey 5D users! Here's IBIS, a tilty-flippy, 45 x 20, great base ISO DR and some neato video features that use the entire full frame. We will take your money now.

Instead, very demanding video modes led all discussion of this product's 'big new thing' and a mountain of improvements photographers have been asking for for ages got 2nd or 3rd billing. I think that was a mistake.

- A


Transparency is not the issue here. Canon are pretty honest about that stuff, but even if they weren't, folks would have tested the snot out of these video modes anyway. The issue is that Canon was trying to either claim new business or make a big splash with an industry-first. That approach drove right past an absolute murderer's row of stills upgrades we have been asking for for years.

Had they led with stills -- or at least put all these systemic upgrades (DPAF II, tilty-flippy, IBIS, sensor quality, etc.) on parity with video in the initial materials, perhaps some luster coming off / reality sticking to their video performance wouldn't drag the camera so publicly right now.

As a stills guy, I'm still probably getting an R5 when we can start traveling again. I'm delighted about the R5. But Canon appears to have made the narrative principally about video, and that decision may have backfired on them.

- A


Looking a little I think that there is some valid complaint since the camera was promoted for months as an 8K video camera as its main feature. I am not interested in video at all, but I suppose a significant part of the price of the camera is due to its video specifications. Hopefully all this negative publicity can drive the price down in the coming months. I have to upgrade from a 7D II and I think these cameras will do the job. Anyway, this canon ad with mind-blowing specs sounds a lot like what Sony was doing in the past; Paradoxically, the last camera announced by Sony, seems like something that could have been done some time ago. Anyway, for still images, the R5 seems fabulous and if the price drops a little it may sell a lot and even I am tempted to buy one. What is clear is that the next R5 will be incredible. Regards



Seriously though, this is a lighthearted comment and I'm not judging anyone who wanted the R5 to be the 8K beast it was initially marketed as and is trying to find solutions to make it work for them. I can totally understand why they want to.

However, lets be honest, the marketing was awful...



As I said, the marketing was terrible and should never have focused on the 8K video aspects but it is what it is and we cant change that but we can deal with it without continuously harping on about what could or should have been and how other manufacturers are doing things.


Read Canon's official press releases about the R5 and R6. They did lead with the stills features in every one of them. They always mentioned 12/20 fps, IBIS, two card slots, and 5-series level weather/dust resistance before talking about anything video related.

Unfortunately, the YouTube reviewers, not Canon, chose to ignore still image features and chose to talk only about the video features.
 
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Michael Clark

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Also, couldn't Canon lean into 8K video as a big opportunity for stills shooters?

Wouldn't 8K stills frame grabs still be rather high res? Couldn't you use 8K for very hard to time stills work -- like timing the bat hitting the baseball, capturing lightning strikes, etc.?

I haven't seen all the collaterals. So if this is somethign they did push, please forward thx.

- A

Lightning triggers cost around $100 bucks and do it far better than video frame grabs could.
 

jeffa4444

EOS 5D Mark IV
Feb 28, 2013
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Im pretty pissed that its "always about the video". Many of us dont give a dam about video we use the camera purely for stills. The R5 will replace my trusty but ageing 5DS, Ive already got the EOS R and a bunch of RF lenses so my landscape needs are covered and my portraits needs are covered.

When I shoot video I use my C300 MKII
 

Michael Clark

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I generally agree. But, I have a problem with any company that offers any feature that isn't ready for prime time. I think it was more than a bad marketing decision. I think it was a bad engineering and design decision. No matter how many disclaimers you offer, it's no substitute for having a product that works. If they couldn't make these ridiculously high resolution and frame rate modes work, they should have just left them off.

My perspective is different that the majority on this forum, but I see this as a case where they let the engineers and designers drive the marketing. "Ooh lookey what we can design! Never mind that it's non-functional in the real world, people should just adapt." No. You should engineer the product to work or not include the feature.

Except in the real world, when folks who actually know what they are doing want to shoot 4K for extended periods of time, they're not processing and saving it in-camera.

 
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Michael Clark

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I guess you missed the last 10 years where Canon have been chastised for playing it safe, not innovating enough and protecting other products in their line-up. The cardinal sin has also been committed by not giving the YouTube Vloggers what they demanded! ;)

Which is, of course, that they expect a stills camera that also does video to be able to keep up with a dedicated video camera costing ten times as much.
 

Michael Clark

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Followed him for a while and is one of the few youtubers who are accurate and understand their stuff, but I have interest in video too. What many people here seem to be missing is he is a videographer, he never pretends he isn't. If you want him to make reviews tailored to YOUR use then you'd be better served renting and self assess, or at least watching someone who works primarily stills never mind same style of stills. If you're a studio tabletop product guy then expecting an outdoor sports photographer to cover ONLY what you want is a bit entitled is it not? This camera is marketed as videocentric hybrid and that is the exact reaso nwhy he reviews it because that is what most of HIS subs sre interested in.

Except Canon has not marketed it as a "video centric hybrid." They've always talked about the still capabilities before talking about the video capabilities in every single press release about the R5 and R6.

It's the idiot YouTube reviewers who have totally ignored that fact that make it seem to those unable to think critically for themselves that Canon has only marketed the R5 and R6 as "video centric cameras."
 
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Michael Clark

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Capturing lightning is typically done by adjusting ISO as low as possible and shutter speed as long as possible (without blowing out the foreground and sky), and then aperture to control how bright the lightning shows up. Its similar to 'flash painting', only you can't control the brightness of the flash or the timing of it. :). It actually works better than video, because if your shutter is open for 8 seconds you get all the lighting that occurs in that time, where as in a video it would be spread out over say 30 frames per second for 8 seconds or 240 frames. Just last month I was on a camping trip and got several hours of lighting shots going. It was quite fun and may be my new favorite thing to try in photography.

As far as i know - and I'm not even a novice at this so I may be wrong - but getting the kind of still image you're thinking of on the baseball bat from a video may be difficult. There are rolling shutter effects, as well as typical video shutter speeds aren't super great at freezing action from a frame grab perspective.

-Brian

Be careful out there.

Lightning + camping can be a dangerous combination.
 

unfocused

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Except in the real world, when folks who actually know what they are doing want to shoot 4K for extended periods of time, they're not processing and saving it in-camera.

Well, that's not quite true. There are plenty of people who produce videos commercially who do not record everything to an external recorder. But, it really doesn't matter as Canon did not say that you had to record to an external device to use 4K or 8K. Bottom line is they designed a flawed product and sent it to market.
 

Michael Clark

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Define "shooting stills for an hour...." Wildlife shooters may take 100 pictures in an hour or zero. A wedding photographer is going to shoot what - a couple of thousand?

With a mirrorless camera it doesn't really matter. If the sensor is turned on the provide a signal for the EVF, it's generating heat whether a frame is captured or not.
 

bbasiaga

Canon Shooter
Nov 15, 2011
449
493
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Be careful out there.

Lightning + camping can be a dangerous combination.
Definitely. Brush up on your lightning safety if you try any of this. I once read an article by a photographer. The cover picture was a lightning strike about 3' in front of the camera. The photogapher didn't know it happened until he was back home sorting the images. He was digging in his camera bag at the time. He was too close to that storm.

-Brian
 
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Michael Clark

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No need to. You have a massive 45MP sensor sitting in a small sealed box with zero ventilation, doing a full readout at 24/30 fps and encoding/recording it internally. It's a volcano. The EXTERNAL issue is something else. The camera is not really getting hot at all and shutting off after an hour in the same 4KHQ mode. It should be able to go longer. There's something firmware related that is being over protective, particularly with external recording

 
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Michael Clark

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Canon Rumors attracts the largest group of stodgy, stuck in the past "photographers" who are angry that video has become more important than stills on the internet. You guys are worse than the crowd who insisted that no Pro would ever use autofocus in video, which has quickly become one of the most important video features in professional video cameras.
Wake up and smell the coffee: these mirrorless cameras are HYBRID cameras. Their main selling point is that they do BOTH well. And video is obviously extremely important, if not the most important feature today, which Canon clearly demonstrated by focusing so strongly on the video features in the marketing hype.
It's you stuck-in-the-past, "get your video features off of my lawn" dinosaurs who look increasingly unbalanced.

Canon spent most of their marketing hype on 12/20 fps, 8-stop IBIS, 5-series ergonomics and weather/dust resistance, etc.

It was the YouTube crowd that ignored all of that and could talk of nothing except 8K video...
 

tron

EOS R5
CR Pro
Nov 8, 2011
4,962
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Brits say nick-on, don't they? Doesn't really bother me.

- A
LOL I have 2 of them (D500 and D850) and I am not sure of the correct pronunciation but I do know that they are the best (actually the D850 is a very new and relatively untested yet but the D500 had thousands of clicks) for BIF with the 500mmPF 5.6E lens. :D
P.S Believe it or not I also like 5DsR with 500mm f/4L IS II too for BIF but it is only convenient for short term use once in a while (and has a better use with 2XIII for static subjects if used from the inside of a car...)
 
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Michael Clark

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This theory is not very well supported if you consider that R5 is capable of hours of recording to an external recorder with memory cards removed. It is either the card that is being a massive heat source or software is glitchy.


So:
  • Writing to CF express generates a ton of heat? Don't the card manufacturers have to certify their speeds can be safely obtained without overheating, data errors, etc.? Are they only on the hook for demonstrating peak speed and not some ability to run consistently under certain operating limits? Has anyone put an IR gun or contact thermometer on their cards vs. other parts of the body to see that the cards are actually heating up to a greater degree than the body in general?

  • Canon somehow implemented CF express on the R5 incorrectly? (What if the R6 also allows this no card + external recording to go longer?)

  • Canon wanted strict temp controls managed with time limits, but somehow forgot to enforce limits in the firmware for this specific no card + external recorder? (Doubt this: that would imply the dude who discovered this would brick his rig if he kept going.)
This is a weird one. Very curious to hear Canon's response to this.

- A

Or maybe having that air passage between the processor and the memory card door (which may be more thermally conductive than other parts of the body) allows the camera to dissipate heat from the processor more easily?

Coming soon from third party vendors: Vented replacement card slot doors and miniature fans that fit in a CF Express card slot.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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Somewhat off-topic, but related to the discussion about video vs. stills in the current media landscape: I would honestly like to feel a bit less like a dinosaur and be able to embrace video, since apparently, many people find it more appealing than written information and/or still photography. However, I fail to grasp the appeal of many online videos; this is particular true of many youtube channels, where a lot of the content is simply someone sitting in a room talking about some topic that could also easily have been written down. These days, you can hardly find any product review, tutorial or whatnot that is not in video form. Most often I just don't see the added value, instead, for me there are typically several drawbacks:

* A written article is easy to cross-read and it is easy to skip the paragraphs that are clearly not of interest, because you can usually tell in a split second what a paragraph will be about - (almost) impossible in video. Usually you have to spend much more time watching parts of the video that don't actually interest you, because skipping parts is much more cumbersome.
* Quite frequently some tiny bit of information is blown up to several minutes of video - people just don't come to the point quickly - probably because otherwise, the videos would be too short. Also, in writing you can e.g. include a table or a chart with much more in-depth information than you could include in a video. In video, many times I find that the information stays more superficial.
* You need to carry headphones with you to be able to watch videos everywhere. In public transportation, or for that matter, in any public space, where I'd have the most spare time to do so, I can't watch a video without headphones because the sound would be disturbing to other people. Leaving headphones as another bothersome item to deal with.
* I cannot process the information in my own pace but am forced to listen in the talking speed of the presenter. Therefore, I frequently find myself having to jump back a few seconds in videos because I have missed a point, couldn't follow quickly enough, or (e.g. in tutorials) want to try the things myself simultaneously, which usually takes longer than the presenter takes to show them. In an article, it is easy to have it open side by side and simply follow instructions step by step. In video, I have to hop back and forth, and end up seeing the same portion of the video over and over again (also because hopping back is almost always not on point as well).

Of course I get the appeal of video for cinematography, any action videos, music or dance videos, wedding videos, wildlife action, etc. But for youtube content of the sort "person explaining/reviewing something that doesn't inherently require motion" - could someone enlighten me what the major benefits are? Maybe I have just been missing the point. Honest question.

Laziness. It takes far less effort to turn on a camera and talk to it than it does to produce a written article that must be proofread for spelling and grammatical errors.

I get very frustrated when I am forced to spend 5-10 minutes watching a video to access content I could have read in ninety seconds.
 
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