Three new stacked sensor cameras coming from Canon [CR2]

roby17269

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You're more reasonable than many people posting here.
Thanks! :)
As someone who already has Canon equipment, what do you recommend about Hasselblad?
Right now I would not recommend Hasselblad at all, not because of their gear but because of the state of the company. Fuji would be the way to go if you wanted to try MF.
Generally speaking, I shoot fashion and years ago most high-end fashion work was on medium format cameras. I tried a couple of times different rigs (Hassy and P1) and was hooked. Then I finally had enough money (and the 2nd hand prices lowered enough) that I pulled the trigger and bought a MF digital back and slowly added some lenses.
These are finnicky beasts. Mine has a 80mp 54x44mm CCD sensor which is capable of extraordinary detail and colors, but it has quite low DR and bad noise (I use it normally between ISO 35 and 100 - ISO 400 is for dire emergencies even if it gets to 1600... to be fair I haven't tried recent AI NR software on it), but that is not an issue for my type of shooting since I usually can control the light.
AF is terrible, and 1 frame per second is considered fast.

Also the camera is dumb. Not much of the aids and automations we're used to with cameras such as the R5. Which actually appeals to me since I like being in control of the camera. And, when all planets align, the images out of it have a quality that sings to me.

I think if noise can be kept down and the lenses are able to retain good quality under higher resolutions, there's no reason why Canon won't offer something higher than 45mp. I don't see why they won't offer a fast 35 soon either. I think it'll happen, hopefully in the next year.
Well I still hope they will at least announce the fast 35 this side of the year, at the very least to put me out of my misery :ROFLMAO:
I would also be surprised if lenses such as the RF 50 and 85 1.2 and 135 1.8 wouldn't be able to exploit higher resolution sensors. All lenses actually would see some sort of resolution increase, but some will make the most of it and some less.
As Neuro mentioned, there was some demand to have the 400 f/2.8 and 600 f/4. I interpreted Canon's statement to imply that there will be another design at some point.
I am sure that sooner or later they will. But I am not holding my breath: big exotics have been traditionally on fairly long update cycles, although one could argue that for the 400 2.8 and 600 4 the clock has started when the EF mkIII were announced.
 
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Michael Clark

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But Canon did upgrade in various ways all the RF lenses that have a perfect or close EF equivalent... apart for the big whites. Nikon could have done the same as Canon has, but they have created new big black exotics with some welcome upgrades compared to their predecessors.

So you do not consider the RF 100-300mm f/2.8 to be in the same class as Nikon's "new big black exotics"? Is the constant f/2.8 aperture not enough of an upgrade from the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-6.3 IS II?
 
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Michael Clark

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But this is my hobby, where I put my money and my time and my passion... so I am free to say that, from my perspective, nowadays, there are holes in the RF system

That's all well and good. The comment to which you replied here was merely making the observation that Canon had a "complete" EF lens system long before the digital revolution took place. Sure, Canon's EF lens system continued to evolve from 2002 through 2018. So did everyone else's. That doesn't mean Canon's lens system, or Nikon's for that matter, weren't both considered full fledged and wide ranging back in 2002.
 
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roby17269

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So you do not consider the RF 100-300mm f/2.8 to be in the same class as Nikon's "new big black exotics"? Is the constant f/2.8 aperture not enough of an upgrade from the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-6.3 IS II?
Hmmmm? Why are you changing lenses?
I thought it was clear I was specifically talking about the 2 "RF-copied-from-EF" primes, the 400 2.8 and 600 4. I am not a fan of what Canon has done with those 2. They sell us on how the new big mount will allow for new wonderful optical things and then they copy 2 lenses... niche lenses for sure but halo ones. And the 800 5.6 and 1200 8 are still the same lenses with an extender bolt on.

I have no issues with the 100-300 2.8 or the upcoming (?) 200-500 4. I welcome them. I wish they had a built-in TC but hey, I'm not likely to buy any of those anyways.
But I would not consider the 100-300 2.8 and upgrade of the venerable 100-400. Different classes, one is a white exotic, the other is just white.
 
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So you do not consider the RF 100-300mm f/2.8 to be in the same class as Nikon's "new big black exotics"? Is the constant f/2.8 aperture not enough of an upgrade from the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-6.3 IS II?
It seems clear that @roby17269 was talking about the RF 400/600 (and 800/1200).
 
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Michael Clark

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But... are they selling? I have no idea about sales data. But Canon's aim is to sell RF lenses (agreed) and how many of those 2 exotics will they be selling if there is no improvement vs the EF ones apart for the need of the adapter? And then there are some small disadvantages as well. But everything pales in front of the cost differential.
Current market price for a new EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS III - $11,999 USD. (If you can still find one from a retailer you trust)
Current market price for a new RF 400mm f/2.8 L IS - $11,999 USD.

Current market price for a new EF 600mm f/4 L IS III - $12,999 USD.
Current market price for a new RF 600mm f/4 L IS - $12,999 USD.

Yeah, that cost differential is just ridiculous, isn't it?

For most of the time since the early 1990s, which is when Canon passed Nikon to be the preferred system among professionals shooting the 135 format, the overwhelming majority of purchasers of Super Telephoto lenses have been photojournalists, sports shooters, and wildlife shooters - all of whom made a living with their work. The advantages of putting USM AF motors in the lens, rather than using mechanical linkages to a more conventional motor in the camera body, is what precipitated this sea change. In the late 1980s at the beginning of the AF era, Nikon held over 80% of the professional market in the 135 format. Canon was a distant 2nd, then a multitude of other players trailed them. These were companies such as Leica, which had been steadily losing share to Nikon since the 1950s, Minolta, Pentax, Konica, etc.

Very few of those PJs, sports specialists, and wildlife professionals tended to update their Super Telephoto lenses every time a new version was released. The ones from the 1990s were more than good enough for newsprint, magazines, and web based images. They only tended to buy the newer ones when the old ones could no longer be repaired. [I've got a friend who is the entire photo department for a mid-market local newspaper owned by Gannet in a town with major college athletic programs that up to a year or two ago was shooting major college football, baseball, soccer, etc. with a 1999 vintage EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS mounted to a 2012 1D X Mark II and a 70-200/2.8 on a 1D X.]

Unlike more mass produced camera bodies for consumers, newly introduced Super Telephoto lenses did not tend to sell most of their units in the first weeks or months after introduction, drop sharply once all initial orders had been filled, and then gradually fall off until the next model replaces them. It tended to be steadier over the entire time the lens was in the catalog. If an updated lens is cheaper per unit to produce, changing production over to the newer model helps to defray the cost of R&D needed to get that lens to production. If there's little or no change in the optical formula, then the R&D cost is already reduced to begin with.

This may have changed to a degree with the massive reduction in the numbers of full time photojournalists and sports shooters working for newspapers, magazines, or agencies that issued company owned equipment to their photographers in the most recent decade. As the top end of the market for exotic telephoto lenses has shifted to amateurs and hobbyists with large disposable incomes, it may be the case that there's more of an initial surge now than in the past.

Since the EF versions are, for the most part, no longer available new (or won't be when existing stocks dry up) anyone needing to replace an EF Super Telephoto lens who wants to stay with Canon will have no choice but to use an RF Super Telephoto at whatever price Canon and their retailers are charging (Hint: for the 600/4 and 400/2.8, the prices are exactly the same, respectively, for the EF III versions and the RF versions of each). If they're not already using Canon EOS R bodies, then they'll also need to buy some of those, too.
 
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Michael Clark

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Hmmmm? Why are you changing lenses?
I thought it was clear I was specifically talking about the 2 "RF-copied-from-EF" primes, the 400 2.8 and 600 4. I am not a fan of what Canon has done with those 2. They sell us on how the new big mount will allow for new wonderful optical things and then they copy 2 lenses... niche lenses for sure but halo ones. And the 800 5.6 and 1200 8 are still the same lenses with an extender bolt on.

I have no issues with the 100-300 2.8 or the upcoming (?) 200-500 4. I welcome them. I wish they had a built-in TC but hey, I'm not likely to buy any of those anyways.
But I would not consider the 100-300 2.8 and upgrade of the venerable 100-400. Different classes, one is a white exotic, the other is just white.
It seems clear that @roby17269 was talking about the RF 400/600 (and 800/1200).

The comment to which I responded said:

"But Canon did upgrade in various ways all the RF lenses that have a perfect or close EF equivalent... apart for the big whites. Nikon could have done the same as Canon has, but they have created new big black exotics with some welcome upgrades compared to their predecessors."

If one is going to talk about Nikon's new exotics that had no F mount predecessor, then it's only fair to include any exotic RF lenses Canon may have introduced with no EF predecessor as well, isn't it? The statement strongly implied to me that Canon had innovated in many ways with other lenses "... apart for (sic) the big whites."

The RF 100-300mm f/2.8 IS is certainly a Big White, even if it has no direct EF predecessor. It also seems to be pretty exotic.

Beyond that, I have no problem with Canon using the same optical formulae for 400mm and 600mm RF Super Telephotos that they used for the latest EF 400mm III and 600mm III when the EF versions were more than pretty stinkin' good already. Canon's RF 400/600/800/1200 don't take a back seat to anything anyone else has out there. If they did, then maybe the argument that Canon cheated by reusing "old" optical formulae would have a point.

I think the presumption that Canon expected anyone who had just bought a new EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS III in 2018 to turn around and buy an RF 400mm f/2.8 L IS in 2021 is woefully misinformed.

Like the Canon rep said, many pros whose older EF 400mm f/2.8 lenses were nearing or at the end of their life cycles expressed that they would be reticent to replace them with the EF III version when they were soon anticipating or had already moved to the RF mount with their bodies. Canon probably predicted that they could sell more RF 400/2.8 lenses for $12K in 2021 and the years immediately following than the number of EF 400/2.8 III lenses they could sell for $12K in 2021 and the years immediately following. Both the 600mm and 400mm RF versions are the same prices, respectively, as the EF version III 600mm and 400mm lenses are/were.
 
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The comment to which I responded said:

"But Canon did upgrade in various ways all the RF lenses that have a perfect or close EF equivalent... apart for the big whites. Nikon could have done the same as Canon has, but they have created new big black exotics with some welcome upgrades compared to their predecessors."

If one is going to talk about Nikon's new exotics that had no F mount predecessor, then it's only fair to include any exotic RF lenses Canon may have introduced with no EF predecessor as well, isn't it?
He’s not. He specifically mentions Canon big whites that have equivalent or close predecessors and compares them to Nikon big blacks with predecessors.

Reading comprehension appears to be a persistent problem for you, doesn’t it?
 
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roby17269

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The comment to which I responded said:

"But Canon did upgrade in various ways all the RF lenses that have a perfect or close EF equivalent... apart for the big whites. Nikon could have done the same as Canon has, but they have created new big black exotics with some welcome upgrades compared to their predecessors."

If one is going to talk about Nikon's new exotics that had no F mount predecessor, then it's only fair to include any exotic RF lenses Canon may have introduced with no EF predecessor as well, isn't it? The statement strongly implied to me that Canon had innovated in many ways with other lenses "... apart for (sic) the big whites."

The RF 100-300mm f/2.8 IS is certainly a Big White, even if it has no direct EF predecessor. It also seems to be pretty exotic.

Beyond that, I have no problem with Canon using the same optical formulae for 400mm and 600mm RF Super Telephotos that they used for the latest EF 400mm III and 600mm III when the EF versions were more than pretty stinkin' good already. Canon's RF 400/600/800/1200 don't take a back seat to anything anyone else has out there. If they did, then maybe the argument that Canon cheated by reusing "old" optical formulae would have a point.

I think the presumption that Canon expected anyone who had just bought a new EF 400mm f/2.8 L IS III in 2018 to turn around and buy an RF 400mm f/2.8 L IS in 2021 is woefully misinformed.

Like the Canon rep said, many pros whose older EF 400mm f/2.8 lenses were nearing or at the end of their life cycles expressed that they would be reticent to replace them with the EF III version when they were soon anticipating or had already moved to the RF mount with their bodies. Canon probably predicted that they could sell more RF 400/2.8 lenses for $12K in 2021 and the years immediately following than the number of EF 400/2.8 III lenses they could sell for $12K in 2021 and the years immediately following. Both the 600mm and 400mm RF versions are the same prices, respectively, as the EF version III 600mm and 400mm lenses are/were.
Well, from one side you're pedantic in the extreme, from the other side you misquote me or put words in my mouth that I haven't written.

I've never said that Canon has "cheated", just that I preferred Nikon's approach... for those lenses. In the end, doesn't matter how much you circle around this, Nikon has not done what Canon has done with any of their exotics: they've made new ones or improved the ones that existed in the F mount. And to be specific, I mean this for current times, during the transition from DSLRs to mirrorless. Don't really care if Nikon has done something similar in the 60's.

I was also clear about which lenses I was referring to, while you keep going around picking other lenses and referring to historical trends.
I've never said that I did not "approve" of the 100-300 2.8.

Also, not sure what you're trying to convince me to? I've never stated that Canon is dumb or evil for what they've done with those lenses, just that I personally am not a fan of that strategy. Of course I may be wrong and it may have been really successful for them. I still fail to see why you launched in these tirades.
 
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I recall around the time of their launch, in an interview a Canon exec stated that these two lenses were released at the request of professional photographers wanting them in a native RF mount, with the implication that they'd have made more design changes if there hadn't been a need to get the lenses launched early. Take that for what it's worth...
Quite likely. I think they are basically a stop gap. From what I have gathered for various articles including a fine one from Lensrentals, it takes 3 to 4 years minimum to design a new lens. If they intend to do a total redesign to try and really change the weight and size of these big whites, it would not surprise me if they will be in development for 6 years or more. So, better to put something out there for the time being.
 
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.....

Also, not sure what you're trying to convince me to? I've never stated that Canon is dumb or evil for what they've done with those lenses, just that I personally am not a fan of that strategy. Of course I may be wrong and it may have been really successful for them. I still fail to see why you launched in these tirades.
Not sure if you are new here...but some folks think they know everything, and when they don't, won't ever admit that they are wrong, or that they misunderstood someone's post, or misread it. Everyone else knows what lenses you meant, and knows you are speaking in reasonable terms.
 
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Sure, 100% agreed... and how is that good for Canon, exactly?
The EF and RF big whites are both relatively new lenses and cost about the same.
It does not really matter much which ones people buy.
The RF is a little better since it means people will have bought new cameras.
The smart thing that Nikon did was add 1.4x teleconverters and increase the prices of the 400 f/2.8 and 600 f/4.
It would benefit Nikon more if people were to buy the more expensive F 800 f/5.6 over the new Z 800 f/6.3 PF but not that many people bought the f/5.6 anyway.
 
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And no, I'm not going to puff my cheeks until they become blue if Canon does not release the RF lenses I want (well, I might do just that if they delay the 35mm f/1.2L for much longer :ROFLMAO: ), nor I am going to threaten to leave Canon for differently greener pastures.
Then you will never truly fit in around here.
 
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Even the EF 85mm f/1.4 L IS, though it is not as sharp reproducing the edges and corners of flat test charts with the aperture wide open as the Sigma 85mm ART, has better bokeh than the Sigma ART, which is designed specifically to perform at its best imaging flat test charts with the aperture wide open rather than giving creamy smooth out of focus areas of photos of a three-dimensional world.
The other thing is that Sigma lenses tend to have higher T stops for the same F stop.
Comparing lenses with F stops and Cameras with ISO is just plain silly.
 
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roby17269

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Not sure if you are new here...but some folks think they know everything, and when they don't, won't ever admit that they are wrong, or that they misunderstood someone's post, or misread it. Everyone else knows what lenses you meant, and knows you are speaking in reasonable terms.
Thanks! Appreciate that and, while I have been lurking quite a while, I have become more active on these fora relatively recently.
 
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roby17269

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The EF and RF big whites are both relatively new lenses and cost about the same.
It does not really matter much which ones people buy.
I think it does at least a bit... if you buy a RF one you're most likely buying new, if you buy an EF one you're most likely buying 2nd hand.
But I do not have any kind of sales data so I am speculating.
The RF is a little better since it means people will have bought new cameras.
The smart thing that Nikon did was add 1.4x teleconverters and increase the prices of the 400 f/2.8 and 600 f/4.
It would benefit Nikon more if people were to buy the more expensive F 800 f/5.6 over the new Z 800 f/6.3 PF but not that many people bought the f/5.6 anyway.
Adding 1.4x to those lenses is not only smart for Nikon, it is also a meaningful versatility improvement for the buyer.
As I have written, I think right now Nikon has a better approach for the long exotics. I say this with 0 angst since a) I don't do wildlife photography enough, nor I shoot models from far enough :ROFLMAO: , to justify buying such lenses... and b) I am sure I could make it work with Canon's RF or EF offerings if a) was not true. (look at us first-worlders ;) )
 
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