Three new stacked sensor cameras coming from Canon [CR2]

[mpmark]

Too often we get a rumored piece of information about one camera that is mistakenly attributed to another camera. R1 will be stacked. Any others....maybe...I'll believe it when I see it. The cost of developing 3 separate stacked sensors just doesn't seem likely. Will they use the same sensor in the R1 and the R5 II? That seems like the only cost effective scenario, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Have to agree with you there, it’s possible they’ll develope two sensors for 3 cameras. The R1 obviously, and R5ii and R5Cii share the same. Only reason I believe the R5 will have a stacked is canons hand is being forced by the Z8

 

[neuroanatomist]

I got the R7....and honestly I leave it at home most of the time. The mirror slap on that thing kept setting off earthquake sensors in nearby counties.

Damn, I’m so jealous of your good luck. Stop using your R7 immediately. I hope you saved the packaging and included accessories. Like the Inverted Jenny postage stamp, your mirrorless camera with a mirror is an ultra rare production mistake and sure to be worth a fortune.

 

[SilverBox]

The R3 has the best ergonomics of any MILC including the Z9 and A1. Obviously, ergonomics are very subjective and though I appreciate the buttons for example on the Sony, overall the R3 is much more comfortable to use in my hands. There are always tradeoffs in terms of size, function, etc. and I am always torn between the convenience of a smaller body for travel/hiking versus the loss of comfort and features. In terms of the sensors, I'm glad to see that Canon is moving albeit slowly with the pack for BSI. I suspect that it will be used in the release of the R1, an R3II, and perhaps a R5II though that remains to be seen.

I recently took my R3 on vacation instead of my old R6 because it was easier to use and more comfortable in my hands, in spite of the bigger body.

 

[neuroanatomist]

In terms of the sensors, I'm glad to see that Canon is moving albeit slowly with the pack for BSI.

Sounds like you’re conflating BSI with stacked sensors. Stacked sensors are BSI by definition, but BSI sensors are not necessarily stacked. ‘The pack’ has been using non-stacked BSI sensors in some MILCs for a while now, but Canon has never launched a MILC with a BSI, non-stacked sensor. So a rumor about them using more stacked sensors doesn’t mean they’re ‘moving with the pack for BSI’.

 

[roby17269]

The 45 MP R5/R5C are 'relatively low-count'? Ok...

I'd have thought you of all people would have understood the meaning of "relatively"?
Or are you going to tell me that an almost $4K FF camera sells as much as other cheaper options?

 

[Aussie shooter]

Too often we get a rumored piece of information about one camera that is mistakenly attributed to another camera. R1 will be stacked. Any others....maybe...I'll believe it when I see it. The cost of developing 3 separate stacked sensors just doesn't seem likely. Will they use the same sensor in the R1 and the R5 II? That seems like the only cost effective scenario, but I wouldn't bet on it.

r1 and R5mkw with identical sensors. R7mk2 with identical sensors just cut smaller. Could work

 

[Mike27713]

Wow! This was a total waste of my time! No specs, just oh Canon has new sensors coming.

 

[LSXPhotog]

An R7X would be a very welcome camera - especially if it came with a stacked sensor! I call the R7 Jekyll and Hyde for a reason; the camera is inconsistent and shocks you at times with what it can do. However, the body of the camera is NOT an 7D replacement, IMO.

But it would make sense if there is a high resolution full frame stacked sensor coming out and Canon had an APS-C model that would supplement the production costs for the wafers. The Fujifilm X-H2S is selling pretty well, from what I’m told, and it’s capabilities are very impressive.

 

[David - Sydney]

Well, a few things that I remember. I didn't like the grip at all, I never felt relaxed in the wrist holding it. I didn't like the button placements around the joystick. I didn't like how close the joystick was to the viewfinder. I found some of the buttons useless and not needed. The scroll wheel was too low..... so that's a few things.... None of this is wrong, it just didn't work for me.

A caveat that may matter.... I have large hands... No issue palming a size 7 basketball sort of thing.

YMMV of course but I felt very comfortable going from 7D/5Diii/5Div to R5... and I have large hands as well!

 

[unfocused]

I got the R7....and honestly I leave it at home most of the time. The mirror slap on that thing kept setting off earthquake sensors in nearby counties. In all seriousness, I was not that impressed, I didn't think the IQ was any better than my 7Dii, and the subject tracking is obviously nice, but WAY short of the R5s, in my opinion. It kept losing birds as soon as they were in even vaguely moderate foliage or brush. No problem like that on the R5. I probably should've waited to buy the R7, but I got caught up hoping for something similar to the 7Dii, but with animal-eye focus, etc. I don't even feel like the ISO performance is that much better. Only time I bring the R7 now is when I may be shooting things further out in the distance and want that extra reach.

I’m sure you didn’t mean mirror slap.

The mechanical shutter on the R7 is horrible. I use electronic shutter almost exclusively and set the volume low, just enough to give me some aural feedback.

Given that it has almost 50% more resolution than the 7DII, it’s impressive that there is no loss of IQ, although I disagree with your assessment. I think it is much better and I have no issues shooting at 6400 using Adobe’s new AI noise reduction.

I haven’t found any of the R bodies to be that great in brush or foliage, but until we get quad pixel autofocus I think it will continue to be an issue.

I consider the R7 to be a specialty camera. It’s my preferred body for walking around in search of small birds. If you play to its strengths it’s a valuable second body in my opinion.

 

[David - Sydney]

Perhaps, but the onboard processing, the stack, might benefit as might the camera cpu. Semiseriously, wonder why some camera manufacturer has not approached Apple to by the processor for the previous year's iPhone. Just a couple of day's output of that processor line. Those suckers have some serious processing power and do not draw that much battery power.

We don't know for sure but Apple's phone chips don't show that they use a high bus bandwidth that the R1/3/5 etc use. Significant CPU processing for sure but not the transfer of massive amounts of data involved. Low power would of course be very useful but those chips are not cheap!

The fastest video on a iPhone 14 pro is 4k60 vs 4k120 or 8k raw for the R5. The R3 and R5 bus bandwidth are approximately the same ~11Gb/s when shooting 24mp/30fps and 45mp/20fps respectively until the buffer fills and then the SD card clearance is the bottleneck unless shooting with only 1 CFe card

That said, we don't know what the max bus bandwidth is for iPhones. It could be huge but not used.

A more significant processor would be a M1 (2/3 etc) but I can't imagine Apple sharing those ones

 

[neuroanatomist]

I'd have thought you of all people would have understood the meaning of "relatively"?
Or are you going to tell me that an almost $4K FF camera sells as much as other cheaper options?

Sorry. I initially assumed you meant MP count, for which the mean among the ‘big 3’ FF MILC brands is 33 MP and the median is 26 MP, meaning 45 MP is not ‘relatively low’ at all. My mistake.

 

[David - Sydney]

I am willing to bet that the 3rd stacked sensor camera would be either a r5c or c500-700 cinecam.

The R1 is a given. The R3 already has one. The R5ii is expected to have one.

The current R3 will be 2 years old in a couple of weeks. It is possible that it could be refreshed like the R6ii but I am not sure what additional benefit a newer sensor would bring. Any R3 owners feel that there is significant sensor improvements to make? 30fps not sufficient vs R6ii's 40fps?

The R5c came about due to perceived video inadequacies of the R5 and added cinema menus (with now reduced switch over times) but without IBIS. They share most internals and although it seems logical that a twin R5ii/R5c ii would be released, I now wonder if there won't be a R5ii cinema twin.

Any heating issues will be managed well in a R5ii (including 8k60 - not raw) based on the weird bollocking that Canon received for the R5.
If that is the case, then I could imagine a R5ii merging a more advanced R5 and R5c combined similar to the merging of the 1D-C back into the 1 series bodies.

I believe that Canon will retain the R5 (similar to R6 and R6ii) and is still seen as a great body. Maybe USD3500 for the R5 given it is already USD3600 and USD4300 for R5ii as the R5c is currently USD4k from USD4300. Advanced video and stacked sensor for stills being the main justification for the price difference.

In this scenario, the 3rd sensor basically leaves a higher specced APS-C. Given that Canon only has the R2/R4 nomenclature left, I imagine it would be a R7ii at a higher price point retaining the R7 where it is. This all means that there will be a lot of Canon R mount bodies available for purchase!

 

[David - Sydney]

ASML might rule the world but sensors don't need the top of the range and very expensive manufacturing technology it offers.

I concur that sensors (AFAIK) shouldn't need narrow lithography and the "stacking" is a manufacturing process not reliant on AMSL machines. Stacking (3D ICs) uses multiple wafers/dies connected on top of each other using wirebonding or through silicon via. The ability to test each layer prior to packaging is a big benefit to having 1 layer fault failing the whole stack.

You could design CPUs directly within the stack but heat management within an IBIS environment is problematic which is not normally an issue for PCBs. Although the A16 bionic die would fit within the dimensions of a FF sensor, the chip package probably wouldn't.

It is rumoured that Apple buys all the 3nm chips that TSMC can make on the proviso that it only pays for working chips ie not defective (to any extent) which is unusual in the industry. This is a big incentive for TSMC to reduce their defect rate which is also rumoured to be ~30% for 3nm at the moment.

PS: AMSL sold ~500 machines in 2021 and about the same in 2022. The pricing is higher for new tech (3nm being the current bleeding edge - however they define it) hence more revenue. China can order older tech under export restrictions but with EU/JP/US domestic security concerns building new fabs, ASML's volume is likely to increase in 2023/4

 

[DhlcadR6]

It's getting off-topic but I don't see any problem Canon keep experimenting with ergonomic designs in mid-lower end models. R3 is near perfect if the top dial is going back to old school 1DX3 or R6/R6ii. R7 scroll-dial should keep it on Rxx/Rxxx APS-C models, I like it but I can understand people with big thumbs hate it.

 

[Wesley]

Have you tried the R3.
I happen to believe it is ergomically perfect.

Perfect? Not quite. The horizontal grip and vertical grip have different depth and form. Vertical is shallower and has a gradual curve where the fingers rest.

 

[Del Paso]

I got the R7....and honestly I leave it at home most of the time. The mirror slap on that thing kept setting off earthquake sensors in nearby counties. In all seriousness, I was not that impressed, I didn't think the IQ was any better than my 7Dii, and the subject tracking is obviously nice, but WAY short of the R5s, in my opinion. It kept losing birds as soon as they were in even vaguely moderate foliage or brush. No problem like that on the R5. I probably should've waited to buy the R7, but I got caught up hoping for something similar to the 7Dii, but with animal-eye focus, etc. I don't even feel like the ISO performance is that much better. Only time I bring the R7 now is when I may be shooting things further out in the distance and want that extra reach.

Mirror slap ????

 

[Del Paso]

Damn, I’m so jealous of your good luck. Stop using your R7 immediately. I hope you saved the packaging and included accessories. Like the Inverted Jenny postage stamp, your mirrorless camera with a mirror is an ultra rare production mistake and sure to be worth a fortune.

I knew it ! Only Sony has real mirrorless cameras. The Canons are all fakes! Time to jump ship!

 

[Twisterfiddler]

hoping for a R6S with 12MP stacked sensor extreme lowlight beast. Let's kick Sony a7SIII from the podium of lowlight king.

 

[AlanF]

Damn, I’m so jealous of your good luck. Stop using your R7 immediately. I hope you saved the packaging and included accessories. Like the Inverted Jenny postage stamp, your mirrorless camera with a mirror is an ultra rare production mistake and sure to be worth a fortune.

So that's why I have never had mirror slap on my R7. Seriously though, the recommended settings for the R7 are ES as far as possible and EFCS where motion of subject or background will cause rolling shutter.