Three new stacked sensor cameras coming from Canon [CR2]

[neuroanatomist]

The R6 II and R8 are already 40 FPS.
I expect similar from the R5 II.
12-bit vs 14-bit would still be a differentiator for the R1.

The R6II and R8 are 24 MP. The R5II won’t be.

 

[David - Sydney]

The R6II and R8 are 24 MP. The R5II won’t be.

I think (s)he means R1 40fps @ 14bit and R5ii 40fps @ 12 bit as a differentiator

 

[neuroanatomist]

I think (s)he means R1 40fps @ 14bit and R5ii 40fps @ 12 bit as a differentiator

My point was data throughput – how are the rumors of (wishes for) a significant increase in MP for the R5II compatible with 40 fps, even at 12 bit?

 

[divinshire]

I don't think Canon set out to make a "serious wildlife" body in the R7.

then that furthers my point! we need one! it would be a very welcome addition to the RF line up if you ask me!

 

[cohenfive]

I still believe that from a market share standpoint, Canon really badly needs a camera to go head to head with the Z8. Similar resolution to the current camera, but with updated af and of course a stacked sensor. Same price point give or take. The Z8 is the current best of the prosumer all around cameras, and it would be a mistake for Canon to let Nikon keep that crown.

 

[David - Sydney]

My point was data throughput – how are the rumors of (wishes for) a significant increase in MP for the R5II compatible with 40 fps, even at 12 bit?

I guess that is the real question about a new(er) Digic X processor. Bus speed, processor capability (eg dedicated core for video encoding, neural core etc) and power efficiency are the next steps. Which body they will appear in is a good question.
Has there been a time where a mark ii etc version has had a slower fps? The R5 appears to be at the limit of the current bus speed at 20fps/12bit. 40fps is unlikely.
20fps @14 bit would be nice but top line specs have glossed over the bit depth for the R5. I would reasonably guess that the R5ii will be >20fps at least at 12bit.
The overall point is that the R1 needs to be above the R5ii - at least in speed. I've made my guess for R1 resolution to surpass A1/Z9 but clearly Canon haven't made 1 series to be the highest resolution in the past but they haven't needed to compete with 45-50mp flagships from Sony and Nikon either.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

I still believe that from a market share standpoint, Canon really badly needs a camera to go head to head with the Z8.

You are not alone in that belief.
However, the R5 II can be a better camera while being completely different.
Not everyone needs a Z 8 type camera.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

The R5 appears to be at the limit of the current bus speed at 12fps/12bit.

The R5 is 14-bit at 12 FPS and 12-bit at 20 FPS.

 

[P-visie]

The R5 is 14-bit at 12 FPS and 12-bit at 20 FPS.

According to The Digital Picture: the R5 is 13 bit at 12 fps:
RAW: RAW, C-RAW 14 bit (14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 13-bit A/D conversion with H+ mode, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter)

Link

 

[David - Sydney]

The R5 is 14-bit at 12 FPS and 12-bit at 20 FPS.

correct, I have updated my post...12 bit @ 20fps but I tried to find the reference and failed.
There also isn't clarity for single shot ES. 20fps ES is known to be 12 bit but single shot wouldn't necessarily need to be from a bus bandwidth perspective.

@P-visie brings up an interesting issue though... I can't find anything in the advanced user guide (any version) about the bit depth.
Fred Miranda references a 19 page spec document still available on Canon's website but I can't find the support page that would link to it.
https://downloads.canon.com/nw/came...-1/pdfs/EOSR5_specifications_FINAL_JULY14.pdf

Under Drive System is a note:
"*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B,
or C)"
I guess just buy the R3 and get 14 bit all the way

 

[Kit.]

It's quite clear that Canon are drip feeding us technology intended to slowly fix issues we didn't know we had until we bought their latest camera. Canon were probably aware of the rolling shutter requirement to be in the 1-3 m/s zone...but still made the R, R5, R6, R6m2 and R8

I don't know where you got that requirement from, but technically, 24 mm / 15 ms is 1.6 m/s.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I don't know where you got that requirement from, but technically, 24 mm / 15 ms is 1.6 m/s.

I presume he means 1-3 milliseconds, not 1-3 meters / second. Of course, a mechanical shutter is ~4 ms so I still don’t know where 1-3 ms comes from.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I still believe that from a market share standpoint, Canon really badly needs a camera to go head to head with the Z8.

Canon has ~3.5 times the market share of Nikon. But some people still believe the earth is flat, so you’re in good company.

 

[AlanF]

Canon has ~3.5 times the market share of Nikon. But some people still believe the earth is flat, so you’re in good company.

Hey, I went to a lecture by a member of the Flat Earth Society as a schoolboy, and he had an answer to everything. If he's still alive, he could well be posting here.

 

[AlanF]

I still believe that from a market share standpoint, Canon really badly needs a camera to go head to head with the Z8. Similar resolution to the current camera, but with updated af and of course a stacked sensor. Same price point give or take. The Z8 is the current best of the prosumer all around cameras, and it would be a mistake for Canon to let Nikon keep that crown.

The Nikon D850, introduced in 2017, is in a league above the 5DIV and is still the current DSLR prosumer crown, but that hasn't led to a response by Canon.

 

[P-visie]

correct, I have updated my post...12 bit @ 20fps but I tried to find the reference and failed.
There also isn't clarity for single shot ES. 20fps ES is known to be 12 bit but single shot wouldn't necessarily need to be from a bus bandwidth perspective.

@P-visie brings up an interesting issue though... I can't find anything in the advanced user guide (any version) about the bit depth.
Fred Miranda references a 19 page spec document still available on Canon's website but I can't find the support page that would link to it.
https://downloads.canon.com/nw/came...-1/pdfs/EOSR5_specifications_FINAL_JULY14.pdf

Under Drive System is a note:
"*1: For shooting RAW images in [High-speed continuous +], 13-bit A/D conversion will apply regardless of the mode (A, B,
or C)"
I guess just buy the R3 and get 14 bit all the way

I have found an updated R5 specification on Canon USA support site which confirms the 13 bit AD conversion from TDP (link), but nothing about other shooting modes.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The Nikon D850, introduced in 2017, is in a league above the 5DIV and is still the current DSLR prosumer crown, but that hasn't led to a response by Canon.

I remember when Canon ‘had to respond to’ the D500. And that was before Nikon started hemorrhaging market share.

People will persist in the belief that Canon ‘must’ do things that, through some extraordinary coincidence, align perfectly with their personal desires.

 

[AlanF]

I remember when Canon ‘had to respond to’ the D500. And that was before Nikon started hemorrhaging market share.

People will persist in the belief that Canon ‘must’ do things that, through some extraordinary coincidence, align perfectly with their personal desires.

D500 is another great piece of kit - what the 7Diii could have been. But, I guess, Canon had already decided that the future was in the R5 and the R7 and not a 5Dv and 7Diii.

 

[roby17269]

How do you think that the R1 would then differentiate from the R5ii?
AFAIK the R1 has always been the fastest fps in the fleet so maybe 40fps in FF but the R5 is already 20fps (albeit with 12bit depth).

I dunno? Nikon differentiates the Z8 and 9 essentially just on body style and a few software functions.

The R1 could have a newer or dual processor, better AF, faster FPS, better comms (wifi / bluetooth / ethernet), integrated memory... better viewfinder (especially the optics in front of it), better rear screen... and better functions (purely firmware).
Historically, we've had the 1D S III and 5D II with a similar, if not the same, 21mp sensor, and, more recently, the 1D X III and R6 with the same sensor. I do not think anyone would mistake one for the other.

But as mentioned, I am just speculating. I have no info on what Canon will do. I would be thrilled if they do indeed release 3 new stacked sensors, and even more thrilled if one ends up in the next R5... but, economically speaking, that is a LOT of new sensors in a time when manufacturers need to rationalize part usage to reduce costs and increase profit. Again, just IMHO.

 

[Billybob]

I think the Z 8 and Z 9 use the a1 sensor with a different filter array.
It is a completely different situation than Canon since Sony has an entire catalog of sensors which Sony, Nikon, and many others pick and choose from.
These would be new sensors that Canon needs to develop in-house.

???
How is a 45.7MP sensor the same as an (a1) 50.1MP sensor? They may be part of the same family/sensor generation, but they are definitely not the same sensor.