Three new stacked sensor cameras coming from Canon [CR2]

[EOS 4 Life]

Sony and Nikon are mostly re-using sensors in multiple bodies. There are a few exceptions (e.g. A1)

I think the Z 8 and Z 9 use the a1 sensor with a different filter array.
It is a completely different situation than Canon since Sony has an entire catalog of sensors which Sony, Nikon, and many others pick and choose from.
These would be new sensors that Canon needs to develop in-house.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

hoping for a R6S with 12MP stacked sensor extreme lowlight beast. Let's kick Sony a7SIII from the podium of lowlight king.

S means high-res for Canon.
For Sony it means Sensitivity and for Fuji it means Speed.
I also think the R3 trounces the a7S III in low light.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

Many people believe that small cameras are better.

I have heard from some people that size was the main reason they would not consider a Z 8 or Z 9.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

r1 and R5mkw with identical sensors. R7mk2 with identical sensors just cut smaller. Could work

I think the Z 8 will totally kill the Z 9 sales.
If that is correct then Canon should do things differently.
Canon might want to wait and see.
The R5 II and R1 are probably already in the works and also probably were before the Z 8 even came out.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

The R5ii is expected to have one.

Not by me.

 

[Aussie shooter]

I think the Z 8 will totally kill the Z 9 sales.
If that is correct then Canon should do things differently.
Canon might want to wait and see.
The R5 II and R1 are probably already in the works and also probably were before the Z 8 even came out.

True but same sensor does not necessarily mean the same camera. Nikon has basically made a z9 without the battery grip. Canon can still use the same sensor and differentiate in other ways.

 

[scyrene]

I hear your point, but let's be honest....the r7 just doesn't cut the mustard for serious wildlife shooters. Useless buffer, horrible rolling shutter and well..a questionable button layout. If they released a new crop with 32mp stacked sensor, that would eliminate rolling shutter, put a decent buffer rin and make it exactly the same body and button layout as the r5 it would be a market killer!

I don't think Canon set out to make a "serious wildlife" body in the R7.

 

[roby17269]

Sorry. I initially assumed you meant MP count, for which the mean among the ‘big 3’ FF MILC brands is 33 MP and the median is 26 MP, meaning 45 MP is not ‘relatively low’ at all. My mistake.

No worries, apologies accepted and re-reading my post I could have been clearer!

 

[roby17269]

I think the Z 8 and Z 9 use the a1 sensor with a different filter array.
It is a completely different situation than Canon since Sony has an entire catalog of sensors which Sony, Nikon, and many others pick and choose from.
These would be new sensors that Canon needs to develop in-house.

I thought the Z8/9 sensor is different than A1's? (46mp v 50mp) but they seem indeed similar and what you mention happened for sure in multiple cases in the past. Fuji, Olympus and Pentax have been using Sony sensors as well. Canon did that for some 1" compacts AFAIK

 

[roby17269]

The R1 is a given. The R3 already has one. The R5ii is expected to have one.

The current R3 will be 2 years old in a couple of weeks. It is possible that it could be refreshed like the R6ii but I am not sure what additional benefit a newer sensor would bring. Any R3 owners feel that there is significant sensor improvements to make? 30fps not sufficient vs R6ii's 40fps?

The R5c came about due to perceived video inadequacies of the R5 and added cinema menus (with now reduced switch over times) but without IBIS. They share most internals and although it seems logical that a twin R5ii/R5c ii would be released, I now wonder if there won't be a R5ii cinema twin.

Any heating issues will be managed well in a R5ii (including 8k60 - not raw) based on the weird bollocking that Canon received for the R5.
If that is the case, then I could imagine a R5ii merging a more advanced R5 and R5c combined similar to the merging of the 1D-C back into the 1 series bodies.

I believe that Canon will retain the R5 (similar to R6 and R6ii) and is still seen as a great body. Maybe USD3500 for the R5 given it is already USD3600 and USD4300 for R5ii as the R5c is currently USD4k from USD4300. Advanced video and stacked sensor for stills being the main justification for the price difference.

In this scenario, the 3rd sensor basically leaves a higher specced APS-C. Given that Canon only has the R2/R4 nomenclature left, I imagine it would be a R7ii at a higher price point retaining the R7 where it is. This all means that there will be a lot of Canon R mount bodies available for purchase!

I agree with what you wrote, under the assumption we will indeed get 3 different new sensors.
I still think it's a lot (3 new sensors I mean) so we will see.
I am thinking (just speculating) that Canon may release 1 new FF stacked sensor and use it in the R1 / R5 mkII a la Nikon's Z8/9? I know this would be a different strategy from the past

 

[GMCPhotographics]

If they believe a traditional sensor will not impact sales, then why not use a cheaper sensor? That simply means more profit.

People complained that the R6II sensor was FSI not BS…ignoring the fact that the performance difference is not significant for a FF sensor, because ‘Sony is using BSI’.

Stacked sensors bring a faster readout, which is useful for shooting fast-moving subjects. Honestly, the readout speed of the R6II/R8 sensor is quite fast as is (AFAIK, it’s the fastest FSI/BSI FF sensor on the market with an <15 ms readout), and the R5 is only slightly slower.

It's quite clear that Canon are drip feeding us technology intended to slowly fix issues we didn't know we had until we bought their latest camera. Canon were probably aware of the rolling shutter requirement to be in the 1-3 m/s zone...but still made the R, R5, R6, R6m2 and R8 knowing full well that in a few years...they would drip feed us the next gen of cams with a stacked sensor. Causing us all to buy yet another camera from Canon, just so we can use 40fps without any rolling shutter artefacts. It's smart engineering / sales technique in the post MP war. Bigger MP isn't going to shift any new tin...but a better shutter will.

 

[neuroanatomist]

It's quite clear that Canon are drip feeding us technology intended to slowly fix issues we didn't know we had until we bought their latest camera.

Sure, that's the way the world works. I remember when 'regular' cars had no AC, no power steering, and hand-cranked windows. Luxury cars had AC, power steering and power windows. But today, those are typically standard even on base trim levels.

My R3 is a luxury, and as such it has no real problems with rolling shutter. For that matter, neither does my R8 because I don't shoot action with it so I leave it in EFCS so I get no rolling shutter and full bit depth, just like my R3 does at 30 fps (or even 196 fps).

 

[Czardoom]

It's quite clear that Canon are drip feeding us technology intended to slowly fix issues we didn't know we had until we bought their latest camera. Canon were probably aware of the rolling shutter requirement to be in the 1-3 m/s zone...but still made the R, R5, R6, R6m2 and R8 knowing full well that in a few years...they would drip feed us the next gen of cams with a stacked sensor. Causing us all to buy yet another camera from Canon, just so we can use 40fps without any rolling shutter artefacts. It's smart engineering / sales technique in the post MP war. Bigger MP isn't going to shift any new tin...but a better shutter will.

I would normally try to be polite, but when you see someone write something that is total BS, what can you really say?

So you really believe that Canon deliberatly didn't use stacked sensors in all those cameras becuase they knew that in a few years they would put stacked sensors in the mark II or mark II versions? Or could it possibly be that Canon did not want to sell the R for $4,000 or more, and the R5 for $5,000 or more or the R6 for $4000 or more...I think you get the idea. Also you seem to be forgetting that not all photographers care about rolling shutter 'cause they aren't shooting BIF or sports. And perhaps most obviously, you can use all those cameras (except the R) for BIF and sports, and experience both high FPS and no roilling shutter by using Elec. First Curtain or Mechanical shutter. Rolling Shutter is not an issue "we didn't know we had," it is a minor issue for a very small percentage of camera buyers, in all likelihood.

 

[jam05]

The Canon EOS R3 was the first camera produced by Canon to come with a Canon manufactured stacked image sensor. This was a much needed advancement from Canon to keep up with Sony’s industry leading image sensor business. We have been told that Canon will be announcing 3 new camera bodies, all with different resolution

See full article...

Great. I am not purchasing another "high end" camera for just firmware. It absolute must have a stacked sensor

 

[jam05]

Sure, that's the way the world works. I remember when 'regular' cars had no AC, no power steering, and hand-cranked windows. Luxury cars had AC, power steering and power windows. But today, those are typically standard even on base trim levels.

My R3 is a luxury, and as such it has no real problems with rolling shutter. For that matter, neither does my R8 because I don't shoot action with it so I leave it in EFCS so I get no rolling shutter and full bit depth, just like my R3 does at 30 fps (or even 196 fps).

A high end camera over $1800 must have a stacked sensor in 2023 else one is merely purchasing copy and paste firmware coding masquerading as "new technology". AI takes coding to another level.

 

[David - Sydney]

Not by me.

So which bodies do you think will get a new stacked sensor besides the R1?

 

[David - Sydney]

I agree with what you wrote, under the assumption we will indeed get 3 different new sensors.
I still think it's a lot (3 new sensors I mean) so we will see.
I am thinking (just speculating) that Canon may release 1 new FF stacked sensor and use it in the R1 / R5 mkII a la Nikon's Z8/9? I know this would be a different strategy from the past

How do you think that the R1 would then differentiate from the R5ii?
AFAIK the R1 has always been the fastest fps in the fleet so maybe 40fps in FF but the R5 is already 20fps (albeit with 12bit depth).

 

[David - Sydney]

I would normally try to be polite, but when you see someone write something that is total BS, what can you really say?

So you really believe that Canon deliberatly didn't use stacked sensors in all those cameras becuase they knew that in a few years they would put stacked sensors in the mark II or mark II versions? Or could it possibly be that Canon did not want to sell the R for $4,000 or more, and the R5 for $5,000 or more or the R6 for $4000 or more...I think you get the idea. Also you seem to be forgetting that not all photographers care about rolling shutter 'cause they aren't shooting BIF or sports. And perhaps most obviously, you can use all those cameras (except the R) for BIF and sports, and experience both high FPS and no roilling shutter by using Elec. First Curtain or Mechanical shutter. Rolling Shutter is not an issue "we didn't know we had," it is a minor issue for a very small percentage of camera buyers, in all likelihood.

As neuro has mentioned, features evolve over time and in theory trickle down. ABS on cars is a good example of where flagship Mercedes had a SW controlled version in the late 70's before it trickled down to almost all passenger cars now. Airbags as well with makers struggling to sell anything with less than a 5 star car safety rating
Very expensive initially but you could reasonably guess that it would get cheaper and more widely deployed.
Stacked sensors will get cheaper but are still more likely to have a lower yield than other sensor types so I think that any trickle down would be to a mid level body. Canon could put stacked sensors in everything now but the price tags would be significantly higher to get the same profit/unit.
IBIS, 4K and eye-AF are similar.

Does an entry level body need IBIS, eye-AF and a stacked sensor? Probably not but if MILC mankers want to differentiate from phones then that is one way to do it.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

How do you think that the R1 would then differentiate from the R5ii?
AFAIK the R1 has always been the fastest fps in the fleet so maybe 40fps in FF but the R5 is already 20fps (albeit with 12bit depth).

The R6 II and R8 are already 40 FPS.
I expect similar from the R5 II.
12-bit vs 14-bit would still be a differentiator for the R1.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

So which bodies do you think will get a new stacked sensor besides the R1?

R1
R3 II
R1 C