*UPDATE* Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8 [CR3]

[paul13walnut5]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

A) Faster lenses focus quicker, and f2.8 or faster bring things like the dual cross point sensors into play. If you aren't getting the AF you want then, yeah, maybe the f5.6 lens has to go.

B) FTM's great, do you really need to focus from 1.5m rather than say 3m? If not, flick the switch and watch your hit rate rise through the roof.

I play to some degree devils advocate. My over-riding point remains, there is a type of user who buys a better camera and thinks thats all they have to do. Their photos aren't any better, or are in some cases worse. So it must be the camera? Right?

It can't be the shitty slow lenses they use, or the fact they are shooting in auto-af point select mode can it?

I would suggest they concentrate on getting their camera working well at 200 or 300 with a decent lens and some time spent on set up, and then crop if they need to.

A sharp image taken with a 200 and cropped is better than a soft image taken at 600, or 400. No?

 

[Chewngum]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

@Chewngum

the current 18MP sensor is terrible. Not event my best resolving lens produces sharp photos on my 7d, whether it is the AA filter or the sensor itself,

Either your best resolving lenses aren't as sharp as you think, or you haven't set the camera up properly, or you can't use DPP or photoshop. 99% of 7D IQ moans are from people who would have been better sticking to rebels. The 7D is a camera that needs set up. Full stop. Set it up. Learn it. Tweak it. Much like the 1D users have been doing for years, and you'll get further. Expect it to behave like a rebel or x0D and you really have wasted your cash.

Nikon users have enjoyed, and enjoy to this day, better JPEGS out the body, price for price point.

Canon users have benefitted more from proper RAW processing, particularly sharpening and luma channel NR.

The 7D gets a poor rep on some forums. I think users who buy a camera designed to give you choices and to be set up and who fail excercise those choices or to spend time setting it up are the real problem.

My sharpness testing was done using macro lenses, far outresolving the sensor, MF, tripod mounted etc... I have tweaked every single setting of the camera to my specifications. Took 2 years to get the settings right. Don't get me wrong its a great camera for everything other than sharpness and contrast. Just imagine the 7d with the 16MP Sony sensor thats in the d7000, that'd be a killer camera. I defended the 7d for a while because i owned one but now i accept that if I'm going to need 100% crops then I won't use it, my 50d and 40d produce more detail than it despite the MP drop. Its just a half done camera, even if they put the 40d sensor in it I'd of been happy, but the 7d sensor does not wow in any way...its adequate but could have easily been so much better. Sharpness is achievable with the 7d, but only when you downsize.

I think its funny that you 100% assume user error, God forbid a person doesn't have the same standards as you and actually isn't happy with what you're happy with. I sold my 7d because i gave it enough time but i can repeatedly get better results with much cheaper options.

 

[Daniel Flather]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

...the EF 40mm f/2.8 pancake.

I'm interested if this has anything to do with mirror-less.

 

[preppyak]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

Some would argue that the flip out screen is not a gimmick and is actually practical in some applications.

As someone who does video, I'd agree with you. I don't need it, as I could get every shot I now get with my 60D on my 50D, but it makes some things more convenient.

But, I say it as a bad thing on the T3i because they put it on a T2i and changed nothing else for 95% of end users (the other 5% being those that use slave flash on a T3i, and that is probably an overestimation). If it was such a necessary item, why wasn't it on the camera's earlier; they've had the tech for long time. They just suddenly needed something to differentiate it and charge a premium...

The touch-screen might actually be useful since the button arrangement has always been awful on the Ti cameras, they're desire to include very few buttons might work. We'll see.

I'm interested if this has anything to do with mirror-less.

The general consensus is that any Canon mirror-less won't be EF mount...since the point of mirror-less is to be smaller, and the EF mount makes the camera about twice as large as it'd need to be. More likely its just another light, portable lens like the 50mm f/1.8.

 

[Marsu42]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

Some would argue that the flip out screen is not a gimmick and is actually practical in some applications.

That depends on the definition. The standard 7d's and enthusiasts' definition would be "only the rebels have it, it can't be good, pro or l33t" (this seems strange to me because the flipout screen has no drawbacks whatsoever, only potential advantages). Like a lightweight body is a gimmick, because a real man's camera couldn't be carried by a woman

 

[Loswr]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

The touch-screen might actually be useful since the button arrangement has always been awful on the Ti cameras, they're desire to include very few buttons might work. We'll see.

I just hope it's a decent touchscreen. My Canon Vixia HF M41 has a touchscreen, and while I love the camcorder for the most part, the touchscreen is a real pain - insensitive and mushy.

 

[Marsu42]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

I just hope it's a decent touchscreen.

What's "decent" and for what users - you won't get a 650d anyway ? Since it's aimed at amateurs that don't need quick changes (or they'd get a body with buttons) and given the expected price tag ~550d ~600d and <60d it's doubtful if a top-grade touchscreen is either economical or really appreciated.

 

[paul13walnut5]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

@chewngum

I think its funny that you 100% assume user error

I didn't. If you care to re-read my post you shall confirm that I actually assumed 99% user error. Perhaps you are amongst the remaining 1% who can actually work and learn a complex camera, understands post-processing and just happened to get a dud.

Otherwise I really don't see whats funny. A lot of inept and impatient photographers with slow lenses let marketing fool them into thinking that a more sophisticated and accurate body properly set up shall yield them better pictures?

Boom boom! I'm hear all week ladies and gentlemen!

 

[paul13walnut5]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

My sharpness testing was done using macro lenses, far outresolving the sensor

Which macro lenses, and how do you know they far 'outresolve' the sensor? I can't think of a camera with a higher pixel density than the 18MP APS-C other than the Nikon D3200. Maybe the D800E, I would need to check. So I can only take it as fact that you've also tested your lens on a Nikon D3200 or a Nikon D800E and it's done much much better.

I'm sorry you didn't get on with the 7D. I use mine with a Sigma 70mm macro (I don't know how the 100mm f2.8 IS performs, but prior to this lens a good copy of the sigma resolved above the canon macros in every test I checked)

Perhaps you are using too small an aperture and don't fully appreciate aperture limited diffraction which is more pronounced on smaller sensors and on cameras with higher resolutions. Blame physics.

Or perhaps you were one of the 5% of folk who bothered setting the camera up properly, but were one of the 5% of that 5% who got a dud.

No, it must be the camera. Has to be the camera. Couldn't possibly be technique or settings.

Joker: I find my 7D works a treat with one of the sharpest macro lenses out there.
Fall-Guy: Do you use AF?
Joker: No, I use a manfrotto micro adjust rail, tripod and the lens scale! Boom Boom!
Fall-Guy: Are you here all week?
Joker: Yup!

 

[Chewngum]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

My sharpness testing was done using macro lenses, far outresolving the sensor

Which macro lenses, and how do you know they far 'outresolve' the sensor? I can't think of a camera with a higher pixel density than the 18MP APS-C other than the Nikon D3200.

Also you said "Either your best resolving lenses aren't as sharp as you think, or you haven't set the camera up properly, or you can't use DPP or photoshop."

Hmmm, if you give 3 options, all of which are user error, then that means you think its user error...no room for movement in your statement sorry. If you ever try a reasonable copy of the sigma 150 macro you will know what i am talking about when it comes to sharpness. The 7d did not render as much detail as the 50D despite having the same crop factor and more MPs. To explain it further, ever gotten a misaligned lens such that every shot taken with it appears slightly soft...I get that with every lens at every aperture on the 7d, and I have bought three 7d's over the course of 2 years and they all produced the same shots. So that begs the question, why did i buy more if i wasn't happy with the first...I was shooting sports where i was outputting at 10mp, downsizing makes the 7d appear a much better camera than it is.

 

[Silverstream]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

To Chewngum:

I have been very pleased with the sharpness I have gotten with certain lenses on my t2i. Here is a link to a 100% clip from an above head to breast height image. F18 Iso100 1/160 with an EFS 17-55 F2.8 IS. See attachment.

I am very pleased with the sharpness I get. I just want a better low light sensitivity/less noise and better low light autofocus.

 

[Chewngum]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

To Chewngum:

I have been very pleased with the sharpness I have gotten with certain lenses on my t2i. Here is a link to a 100% clip from an above head to breast height image. F18 Iso100 1/160 with an EFS 17-55 F2.8 IS. See attachment.

I am very pleased with the sharpness I get. I just want a better low light sensitivity/less noise and better low light autofocus.

The 7d has features which allow me to get a shot i may not have gotten otherwise, but ultimately i just dont think it had a sensor performing the way it should. Sharpness would only affect about 5% of the images i output, often reliability is more important. Anyway I am done on the 7d topic, I would apreciate Canon improving the APS-C sensor they are using...they have ergonomics, build and features where it counts but better image quality would make the the 7d the APS-C camera unbeatable in all aspects. I look forward to seeing what canon produces...I'm ready for similar IQ to the pentax and Fuji sensors.

 

[Silverstream]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

The 7d has features which allow me to get a shot i may not have gotten otherwise, but ultimately i just dont think it had a sensor performing the way it should. Sharpness would only affect about 5% of the images i output, often reliability is more important. Anyway I am done on the 7d topic, I would apreciate Canon improving the APS-C sensor they are using...they have ergonomics, build and features where it counts but better image quality would make the the 7d the APS-C camera unbeatable in all aspects. I look forward to seeing what canon produces...I'm ready for similar IQ to the pentax and Fuji sensors.

If Canon released the t4i without a new sensor, I would have serious doubts about Canon's short term outlook in the low end DLSR market. It doesn't make sense that they would put out the same sensor when Sony and Nikon have the level of offerings they have. Canon has been at the forefront of development in this area for quite some time now. I doubt they want to relinquish the lead.
On the 7D note, there were rumors posted about merging the 7D and 60D bodies to make way for a low end full frame in their price lineup. I personally would buy a 70D in a heartbeat over the T4i if both were available simultaneously soon (For hopefully even better autofocus and microlensadjustment if the new 70d had it).

 

[AvTvM]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

The 7d has features which allow me to get a shot i may not have gotten otherwise, but ultimately i just dont think it had a sensor performing the way it should. Sharpness would only affect about 5% of the images i output, often reliability is more important. Anyway I am done on the 7d topic, I would apreciate Canon improving the APS-C sensor they are using...they have ergonomics, build and features where it counts but better image quality would make the the 7d the APS-C camera unbeatable in all aspects. I look forward to seeing what canon produces...I'm ready for similar IQ to the pentax and Fuji sensors.

As a 7D user I agree with you that the 7D with the Nikon D7000 sensor (+electronics) would by far be the best APS-C camera around.

At the same time I do not find the sensor in my to be "terrible" at all. I am quite pleased with sharpness as well as overall image quality I get, although the 7D sensor is technically outclassed by the best newer cameras by now - but more so in DR and low-ISO noise than in sharpness.

Maybe you really got a sub-standard camera.

 

[Hesbehindyou]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

ultimately i just dont think it had a sensor performing the way it should.

At the same time I do not find the sensor in my to be "terrible" at all. I am quite pleased with sharpness as well as overall image quality I get ..
Maybe you really got a sub-standard camera.

He said he'd tried three. The usual error is comparing 100% crops.

 

[Chewngum]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

If Canon released the t4i without a new sensor, I would have serious doubts about Canon's short term outlook in the low end DLSR market.

7d...550d...60d..600d? I had serious doubts when the 60d had the sensor. Canon have too much big brand name'ness' about themselves and i see too many people buying Canon thinking they're getting the best without even researching what suits them. I rarely see someone buy nikon unless they've done a little research. I worked camera retail for 2 years and it was often a mission to convince yuppi's to buy anything other than canon.

 

[Marsu42]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

If Canon released the t4i without a new sensor, I would have serious doubts about Canon's short term outlook in the low end DLSR market.

7d...550d...60d..600d? I had serious doubts when the 60d had the sensor.

At least telling from the dslr stuff tourists (there are a lot in Berlin) carry around, it's 2/3 Canon and many many nowadays rather cheap 600d. So releasing the same sensor over and over again really doesn't seem to matter to the xxxd crowd, and rightly so, they'll hardly ever reach the sensor's limits and/or wouldn't notice a slight improvement. But they would notice if the body price went up $100 because Canon wouldn't put it the standard sensor in it anymore.

 

[eyeland]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

I have been saving for a new DSLR for a while now and as the money intended for a FF had to go to a new laptop I have been searching for a decent budget DSRL to keep me going until I can afford FF . I think the only thing that kept me from getting the 550D/600D is that upon testing them, I found the AF system not just surprisingly inferior but almost useless (given that one shoots under sub-optimal conditions and like to change AF points). I grew up with Film, and the Rebel AF system would have been a minor gripe for me if it hadn't been for the VF making precise MF very difficult especially in the situations where the AF fails. (Granted, LV zoom and Magic Lantern aids the use of MF greatly but it can be quite hard to use without something to stabilize the cam.)
Of course the sensor is important, but I would take improved VF and/or AF any day over improved sensor in this price-range.

 

[paul13walnut5]

Re: Canon Rebel T4i/650D on June 8, 2012? [CR2.5]

@chewngum

Also you said "Either your best resolving lenses aren't as sharp as you think, or you haven't set the camera up properly, or you can't use DPP or photoshop."

Hmmm, if you give 3 options, all of which are user error, then that means you think its user error...no room for movement in your statement sorry.

Once again you misquote, or deliberately misinterpret me. I really tried to give you that 1% out that it may be a faulty camera rather than the more likely fact that you can't work it properly. Especially given that you've went through three.

Interesting that you mention you get on fine with the more basic 40D and 50D which have AF that doesn't require setting up. I thinks me sees the problem maybes. The 7D is really for advance users who are willing to read the manual and spend some time setting the camera up.

Maybe a camera that works reasonably right out the box is your best bet.

I gave three scenarios: crap or faulty lenses, poor camera operation, or poor post-processing. In 99% of cases it will be one of, two of or a combination of all three. See there's still that 1% to let 'those with a dud camera' off the hook.

You also allude to pixel peeping. I'm sure I made it a resolution of mine a few years back to stop debating with pixel peepers.. How did you get on when you shot film? Did you complain to kodak that the silver hallide grains were the wrong shape or not sharp enough, or did you not look at your negaitives through a microscope?

Please don't misquote me again. Go and buy something simple that you can work. The 7D is obviously a rung above your aspirations / ability.

 

[Chewngum]

Paul I know the AF back to front of all my cameras and many i dont own. I spend many hours getting to know a camera before i try and use it for paid work. I have never had a real problem with AF, especially on the 7d. The reason i preferred the 50d and 40d was their sensors. There is a distinct difference between OOF and not sharp that you dont realise obviously. Also I am 21 and only used film for kicks for 5 years before switching to all digital 5 years ago. I never complained about film because i was born into an age where I can pick apart equipment and where small tolerances do affect me, especially if I am putting 10k+ investment into it. If you love film so much then shoot exclusively on film, it wont affect me. Sharpness doesn't always matter but start printing 1mx2m prints and you might realise thats where a good combination of sensor and lens will shine!