What’s next for the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6?

Joules

doom
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2017
1,717
2,130
Hamburg, Germany
I was referring to Canon's pre-release publicity efforts, which were very heavily weighted to the video features. In fact there was much whining on this very forum about how all the talk was about video specs and nothing about stills.
But we knew about the 12 FPS mechanical, 20 FPS electronic, IBIS, Animal eye AF and dual cards slots very early on. I am still not sure what else these people expected to hear about stills, other than those incredible features. The only thing about video that may explain why people remember it more vividly is that the event where it was covered wasn't that long ago.
 
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privatebydesign

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
10,433
5,656
I encode using H265 all the time on my PC and it's no big deal. I don't know why you say it's going to be the death of computers - that doesn't make any sense at all.

It's actually a decent codec if you're looking for decent quality and small file size.
It seems there is a hardware issue with graphics cards and some h265 4.2.2 CODEC implementations. It also seems like you can edit R5 8k on an iPad, so there's that....
 
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davidhfe

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2015
307
459
Meanwhile the conversation in marketing is going like this: "Did it not occur to anyone in engineering that customers might want to actually, you know, use the video features they put in the camera."

Of course, and yeah I'm being quite glib here. Regardless of what design goals were set out 4 years ago (45 mp was most likely chosen because they wanted 8K to be a feature) you need to make a call based on the engineering that's happening on the ground. Either:

- The camera was engineered to handle 8K, went to market with that headline feature assuming it would work, and there's a defect to be addressed.
- The camera couldn't hit the 8K goal, but it was marketed as such anyways.

If it's the latter, it was known the first time engineering samples came off the line a year ago and it was decision time back then. We don't really know what happened inside of canon here—maybe engineering thought they could fix it. Maybe marketing got flustered by a leak. Maybe I'm wrong and tomorrow canon says firmware 1.01 will address these problems and we can all go skipping off into the sunset.
 
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jam05

R5, C70
Mar 12, 2019
506
331
you seems to overlook an elephant in the room: IBIS
sensor assembly has to stay mobile and light. So the heat either to be first absorbed by magnesium alloy body and then extracted either via lens mount throat, peltier element inbuilt into the back of the camera or Dissipate into the bottom plate..
That's what I'm going to do as soon as my unit arrives today. Take my measurements and use the Tilta idea. Most likely will go with ARCTIC .5 removeable thermal pad, a low profile cpu cooling heat sink fan assy (DC), can't seem to find the enclosre similar to the one Tilta has though.
 

davidhfe

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2015
307
459
It seems there is a hardware issue with graphics cards and some h265 4.2.2 CODEC implementations. It also seems like you can edit R5 8k on an iPad, so there's that....

Apple invests heavily in accelerating H265, but it'd still be hilarious if an iPad can handle it but premiere on a threadripper can't
 
Also, wow, that EOS thread about a heat sink. A heat sink is a device that you throw (sink) waste heat into so that it can be dissipated. The R5 has a huge heat sink—the mag alloy body. It doesn't matter how big the spreader is on the back of the PCB as long as it can can transfer that heat from the processor and sensor to the body as fast as it's generated. Given the 20-30 minute recording time, I'd say that's the sink (body) reaching it's capacity. This sounds very different from, say, a PC that's got inadequate cooling. Not sure about the lack of thermal compound—that picture was tiny—I suppose it could be an issue but only if it's heat transfer that's the problem not heat dissipation. But you don't put cooling fins (like you'd see on a CPU) on a thermal setup like this because fins are used to dissipate not transfer heat.

The problem* here seems to be that the sink (mag alloy) can't effectively dissipate the heat generated once it's full. This is why the R6 overheats faster despite processing half the information as the R5. No mag allow to sink heat to! I feel like folks are looking at this and saying "gosh it's not designed like my PC canon is dumb" without a pinch of thought about what's going on:

- Rate the sensor and processor generates heat. Can be mitigated by firmware (more efficient or less use of hardware) to some degree but there are also just the realities of the TDP of these components.
- Is the heat from the sensor and processor being pulled away quickly enough to prevent them from overheating (stability, eventually hardware damage).
- What do you do with that heat—where does it sink to?
- Once it's been sinked, how do you dissapate heat from the sink. PCs have big ass sinks with hundreds of fins because they're paired with big ass fans to remove the heat from the sink.

Where the problem in that stack lies greatly affects what Canon can do. If the entire thing is working as anticipated, I don't see how you fix* it w/o re-engineering the entire body.

In a perfect, perfect world there's a defect in a batch of Digics or sensors that's causing them to create more heat than their spec'd TDP. The delay is to fix that mfg problem but wow that's idle speculation for the ages. This is starting to feel an awful lot like "Canon is re-working the 5D4 to add better 4K codecs!" and folks need to get their own expectations in order.

*I am still not 100% convinced there is a "problem" here except for Canon's marketing group which headlined 8K and then said "uhhh well sorta" in conjunction with not putting the bodies in the hands of anyone except explorer.
It there was a manufacturing issue they wouldn’t need to issue the Overheat timings advisory and have a menu feature which you enable to protect against overheating, no?

second there was a YT video showing the Canon and Sony overheating in Florida - the guy had a temp sensor which could read the heat from the bodies as they started to record. Iirc, around 120 to 130 degrees constant, with the Panasonic being lower by about 10 degrees. It may simply be the Sony sensor can handle the heat and the Canon one can’t for the same period. Whether 12MP has a bearing on that I don’t know. Presume the same with the Panasonic (to the Canon) and hence why they designed a fan in theirs. Maybe Sony needed 5 years to design a solution which could dissipate the heat / take the heat better / didn’t generate as much heat. Even with IBIS which apparently causes challenges.

My best guess is either they’re taking design from a 1Dx / R1 body and modifying it for the R5/R6 along with firmware changes, or they’ve had a lightbulb moment. Combined they think they can mitigate it to a point, but as you suggest, a complete fix? Not in this generation. I think 8K isn’t really the issue for them - as in, maybe a 1.5x the time would be good enough. I think most concern comes from the 4K modes shutting off. If they can prolong that in the HQ and 120fps without lowering quality to over an hour and offer a gizmo which can cool it quicker (maybe the lens mount cooler but designed just to cool it, not always active), then that might be enough.

Alas it does mean that stills shooters have to wait...
 
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TomR

EOS 90D
Jun 9, 2020
135
122
Well in general that is not a problem, because its written in documentation. Its a limitation that people dont like and therefore will not buy product. Its a failed product planning.
But is there a problem? Depends on who you ask. Personally it would fine with me if the majority of the Youtubers just went away. Problem solved.

well, if canon recalls this camera (big if i know) then i think its Canon that thinks its a problem
 

Danglin52

Wildlife Shooter
Aug 8, 2018
316
334
Well to be fair they were pre-announcing features which were ahead of the pack when it came to video. They were aiming high... and they‘ve stumbled. The trouble is, even if they fix it with hardware changes by November, the denizens will pounce and say why didn’t Canon withhold it by a few months.

Does make you think about if there will be further refinements even after november

And one wonders if the R1 already has better cooling or whether it will also require design changes.

Guess the announcement in August will be an interesting one. Shame it’s not just firmware. I’d be happy to get it now and wait for the video firmware fixes later....

First, I am not a videographer and only use video occasionally. Again, I think Canons only sin here was overhyping the 8k aspect of the camera. This is a very capable hybrid camera - all hybrids have some limitations because they are trying to be all things to all people. Sony with the A7S III is focused on video, but you can also use it for stills. BTW - Where is all the rage or "why bother" comments about even considering the A7s III for stills with a paltry 12mp sensor? The R5 had limitations by design that are controlled by the software, but the you tubers needs something for clickbait:)
 
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jam05

R5, C70
Mar 12, 2019
506
331
you seems to overlook an elephant in the room: IBIS
sensor assembly has to stay mobile and light. So the heat either to be first absorbed by magnesium alloy body and then extracted either via lens mount throat, peltier element inbuilt into the back of the camera or Dissipate into the bottom plate..
We'll see. We know already that an external fan will work. Canon ex[
you seems to overlook an elephant in the room: IBIS
sensor assembly has to stay mobile and light. So the heat either to be first absorbed by magnesium alloy body and then extracted either via lens mount throat, peltier element inbuilt into the back of the camera or Dissipate into the bottom plate..
Astrologist have used external DSLR cooling for over a decade.
We already know that an external fan will work. It most often does, Regardless of the interior design of the camera. It's done all the time in the advvent of loss of air conditioning in electronic equipment rooms. The first thing we do is bring in large fans. Most often we can keep entire buildings with racks of equipment cooled for days. Cool that camera body with a fan/blower or the like an one can keep the temps down. I will record my device temps and setting when it arrives today, and proceed with designing my own supplemental cooling until the Tilta, SmallRig, or Canon devices are available. Not are difficult task.
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
737
They will squeeze every single dollar from their customer base who are trapped sitting on thousands of dollars of EF glass. Its all about drip feeding its customers. If they give you a camera that doesnt overheat in 2020, what can we give you in 2021-22!

I have not once, ever, seen you post a constructive or thoughtful comment. Every single post is bashing and complaining. It must be exhausting- I know the rest of us are fatigued by the constant and baseless whining from a very small few.

No one is forced to buy any of these cameras, so where is this dollar squeezing? Trapped with EF glass? A simple adapter can put people on any number of non-canon systems.

What I would really like to hear about from you is what you shoot currently, how amazing it is and why, and see some of the incredible content you produce with those tools; if you are not so busy complaining that you never actually produce anything good. Prove your assertions with logic, or be gone.
 

Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
343
412
So many of you guys were bitching an winning and going down my throat about me and others leaving comments about the heating issues.
You guys kept saying the overheating is not a concern. Kept complaining about YouTuber's complaining about the heat.

Now you guy are all worried about possibly returning your cameras due to a possible recall?? If it was never a concern before, why not just keep it the way it is instead of bitching about not having it when you send it back for a recall? But NOWWWWW it's an issue??

If people like me weren't leaving comments about the heat being a real issue of concern, Canon wouldn't care and wouldn't be trying to fix this issue now. No firmware update and no possible hardware update/recall or whatever, that they might be working on now. Ever think maybe the people complaining about brand X are doing it not because they are brand Y fanboys but instead because they are hoping brand X hears what features/updates they want them to produce?
sooooo.....YOU'RE WELCOME!!
 

davidhfe

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2015
307
459
you seems to overlook an elephant in the room: IBIS
sensor assembly has to stay mobile and light. So the heat either to be first absorbed by magnesium alloy body and then extracted either via lens mount throat, peltier element inbuilt into the back of the camera or Dissipate into the bottom plate..

It's totally possible the thermal couple between the sensor on the IBIS sled and the mag alloy is the problem for exactly that reason. But it doesn't seem to be given that you can run the system at full bore for 20 minutes before issues crop up and then you need a really long cool down. That seems more like hitting the sink capacity.

I probably could have condensed that entire post down to "Those people are idiots. There's a huge heat sink on the R5—it's called the body"
 
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Nelu

1-DX Mark III, EOS R5, EOS R
CR Pro
Sony also has a Auto Pwr OFF Temp (HIGH) which allows the camera to continue to operate while in the overheat state, until it completely fails. Being that this is what many Sony operators immediately claim should be the setting when testing their cameras is proof that most know about and or use it.
Remind me not to buy a second-hand Sony; like NEVER! :)
 
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I encode using H265 all the time on my PC and it's no big deal. I don't know why you say it's going to be the death of computers - that doesn't make any sense at all.

It's actually a decent codec if you're looking for decent quality and small file size.
H265 takes more time to encode than H264. Do a test and see if your PC can encode 4K 60fps at near real-time with good quality to see the challenges faced and hence why you need hardware support. H265 was designed for 4K and 8k which is probably why it’s being used and not h264...
 

davidhfe

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2015
307
459
Threadripper doesn’t have x.265 decode/encode, nor do arm cpu. Both are handled by GPUs. iPad gpu can handle 4:2:2 whereas current pc gpus cannot. Not sure which generation GPU it needs. Apparently 4:2:0 is ok In PCs

Ah yeah should have said 2080Ti (It was Gerald undone talking about his machine chugging). Six of one, half dozen of the other.
 

wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
62
42
The new h265 codec is also part of this problem. That codec creates lots of heat, yes there is overheating in 8k but that h265 shit will be the death of cameras and computers. Give the camera motion jpeg and a mp4 h264 and life will be well. Photo shooters should also be concerned with photo battery’s life. It’s not looking good. I hope they get this all sorted. I want canon to succeed and crush it.
I agree with your comment about battery life. Since I shoot 95% stills and most of that is wildlife the battery life is my only concern at this time. Hopefully mine will be here in a few days and I can find out for myself.