What's Next From Canon, NAB and Beyond
- Thread starter Canon Rumors
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Canon Rumors said:
I'd love to, just as soon as I figure it out. It's almost as if they are deliberately trying to screw it up.
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Marsu42 said:
They were forced by competition over two years ago, but so far have not done anything about it, nor are they showing any signs of doing anything about it. A while back Canon executives were giving interviews claiming that they were going to take DSLR video "seriously", but that didn't happen. We got the 7D2 instead. What a joke - apparently their executives failed to communicate their new direction to their engineers. Last year they claimed that they were going to take mirrorless "seriously", and what did we get? That joke of a camera, the M3. And that is supposed to compete against the A7000 and NX500??? Really??? Do they think we are that stupid? (ok, some Canikons are, and will believe anything)
What they need to stop doing is telling us that they are going to get serious when it is clearly obvious that they either don't want to, or are incapable of doing so, so they tell us all this BS to keep us from leaving them because things are going to all be better "soon".
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How so? Are they losing market share, or merely losing bench-test bragging rights?Tugela said:
Yes, instead of doing what they were told, the engineers made a product that's getting solid reviews, and selling faster than they can make it.
Do you expect Canon to custom-build a mirrorless camera to your specifications? It's more likely they'll build one that they expect to sell broadly.
Says who? Maybe they're going for a different segment of the mirrorless market.
What they really need to do is continue to be a solidly profitable company. Making a "killer" mirrorless that's not profitable is not a strategy for corporate success.
This bears repeating for the thousandth time: Canon is a for-profit business. They do not sell products for bragging rights or artistic reasons; rather, they sell products to make a profit. Buy or don't; forum rants will not convince competent corporate employees to deviate from their best professional judgement.
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I for one would really like to see the updates to the 45 and 90 ts-e to L status. With the arrival of the 5Ds I would imagine that the aged lenses will not be up to par. For my architectural work it is a must. If they show up then I'll spend the 10k for the camera and the lenses ASAP. Take my money Canon.
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I'm still holding my hope up for the EF 1200mm f/4 Pancake lens. The one that comes with fine print saying: "Will work if sufficiently close to a black hole to help you bend the light."
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Orangutan said:
Wrong on so many levels.
1. The competition overtook Canon at least three years ago. They should have reacted then. They did not. What they did was say they were going to react, but then did nothing. Pretty much everything they have released in the last 3 years has been rewrapped old products with a few newer odds and ends added in.
2. You missed the point completely. They claimed that they were going to put greater emphasis on video, since that was were the market was heading. And where are the products to back this up? *Crickets*. The consumer cameras have not evolved at all in this respect. The 7D2 may be well reviewed as a still camera, but as a video camera it is at the back of the pack in the prosumer market space. It did not advance on the 70D, and in many respects it is a regression. Pretty much every other leading manufacturer has much better video functions in their consumer cameras. Even Nikon does. Remember, Canon executives claimed that they were putting increased emphasis on video. Let me repeat that, video. Where the hell is it? This is a function that is important in their consumer camera market but is still stuck in way the past. The 2015 models are largely out and they still have 2012 functionality. What the engineers are producing is not what the executives are claiming is their future focus. Either they are not communicating with each other, or we are being sold a marketing line to get us not to jump ship.
3. I don't expect Canon to custom build mirrorless to my specifications, but I do expect them to do what they say they are going to do. The mirrorless cameras which sell broadly are not Canons - that market is dominated by the likes of Sony and others. The Canon M series was a failure in the market space. The only way they could sell any sort of quantity was by bargain basement pricing it. The M3 is not going to change this because it clearly has the same faults as the M1 - it has outdated technology in a space where market is evolving at an annual pace and it is not keeping up.
4. The A7000 is not out yet, but the A6000 is and is a much better system than the M. The A7000 will improve on that. Given Sony's recent history in cameras, it will take things to a new level. The NX500 will have most of the capability of NX1. The M3 won't stand a chance against those two cameras in head to head comparisons. That is the competitive landscape it will have to sell into. It is the reason why they won't sell the thing in North America, they know they won't stand a chance there because in that particular market those sorts of cameras sell mostly to enthusiasts who are not locked into glass, and consequently will buy on performance, not the brand name on the face plate. The only thing the M3 will replace is the M1 in the bargain bin.
5. Canon might be a profitable company, but their sales are driven by (A) their brand name, and (B) space on shelves. Both of those however are derived from historical factors, not current factors. A company can trade on that for only so long. If they don't keep up with the fore front of technology in time it will be someone else's brand that gets recognized as "good" even though it isn't so much any more, and someone else that will have that shelf space. Ever heard of Xerox, or Kodak, or Nokia, or Research in Motion? All one time leaders in their fields who didn't recognize where technology was going and allowed competition to take the initiative. That is what is going to happen to Canon if they don't start delivering.
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The three higher echelon markets for digital cinematography are movie (ones with budgets of $ 1M), TV Drama and TV commercials. The majority of this business never even considers a DSLR unless its used in a dangerous positions or confined spaces.
The BBC have a minimum data rate of 50 Mb/s and most cameras are 100 Mp/s or higher the Sony FS7 for instance is up to 400 Mb/s read & 350 Mb/s write and can record 4K / 2K in 12bit. Even then this camera is viewed as lower end with the Sony F55 and Sony F65 well ahead up the tree.
The digital video market from a content point of view is vast so obviously tools of different abilities and price points reflect that but first & foremost NAB is a professional broadcast showcase and mirrorless CSCs with 4K are not the stable diet its where people want to see how advanced NHK are with 8K, what cameras now impliment Rec. 2020 color space, improvements in compression, new high performance optics that will resolve 8K.
The fact that Arri have been so successful with the Alexa which is 3.4K in its latest offerings reflects their understanding of colorimagery, workflow and use in the field. The biggest frustration of Sony & Canon is the over-complicated menues most of which are not required on-set, form factor and a 16x9 sensor. (with open gate if shoting 16x9 you have the ability to re-frame to a degree in post). The Amira using essentially the same sensor as the Alexa has been designed more as a hand-held camera for documentory but retains the Alexa simplicity. Another factor has been Arri working with Codex at the design stage of Alexa upgrades and not Codex trying to adopt its product as was the case for Sony & Canon. With the Amira Arri adopted the CF.2 card system on-board (the first to do so) and would have learned from the original 16X9 Alexa adoption of Sony SxS cards.
If Canon do have an "Alexa Killer" at NAB it will not be enough to be just another 4K camera like the C500.
The BBC have a minimum data rate of 50 Mb/s and most cameras are 100 Mp/s or higher the Sony FS7 for instance is up to 400 Mb/s read & 350 Mb/s write and can record 4K / 2K in 12bit. Even then this camera is viewed as lower end with the Sony F55 and Sony F65 well ahead up the tree.
The digital video market from a content point of view is vast so obviously tools of different abilities and price points reflect that but first & foremost NAB is a professional broadcast showcase and mirrorless CSCs with 4K are not the stable diet its where people want to see how advanced NHK are with 8K, what cameras now impliment Rec. 2020 color space, improvements in compression, new high performance optics that will resolve 8K.
The fact that Arri have been so successful with the Alexa which is 3.4K in its latest offerings reflects their understanding of colorimagery, workflow and use in the field. The biggest frustration of Sony & Canon is the over-complicated menues most of which are not required on-set, form factor and a 16x9 sensor. (with open gate if shoting 16x9 you have the ability to re-frame to a degree in post). The Amira using essentially the same sensor as the Alexa has been designed more as a hand-held camera for documentory but retains the Alexa simplicity. Another factor has been Arri working with Codex at the design stage of Alexa upgrades and not Codex trying to adopt its product as was the case for Sony & Canon. With the Amira Arri adopted the CF.2 card system on-board (the first to do so) and would have learned from the original 16X9 Alexa adoption of Sony SxS cards.
If Canon do have an "Alexa Killer" at NAB it will not be enough to be just another 4K camera like the C500.
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We will have to disagree, then.Tugela said:
Since you don't say what you mean by "overtake" I'll have to assume you mean they overtook Canon product capabilities. I'll take your word for it, but it's irrelevant. As I said above, Canon is a for-profit business, and appears to be at/near the top of profitability in DSLRs. This has not changed despite your assertion that their capabilities were overtaken years ago. Canon's line continues to sell well at high prices. Canon will take profitability over capability any day.
Why are you surprised by marketing hype? No sane business will adhere to its previous marketing hype if it determines that the market has changed. Canon will take profit over rigid promises and roadmaps any day.
Which the market continues to devour at profitable prices. What sane business would cook the old hens before they've stopped laying eggs? This is good business.
I didn't miss it, I consider it irrelevant. They judged profit to lie in another direction. Sound business. Again, don't rely on old marketing hype.
To Canon, all that matters is that it's a profitable product. Canon corporate doesn't care whether the video is good or not, they just care if it makes them a profit. On that criterion, it appears to be doing exceptionally well.
How are the profits of those companies? Not as good as Canon's, I think.
Let me repeat that, profit. The profit motive supersedes all prior marketing claims.
It was replaced by "profit" in their strategic plan.
If so, then why do Canon DSLRs continue to sell so well? Obviously, it's not that important, or no one would buy Canon DSLRs.
You can be certain the engineers produce what the execs tell them to produce, and what they've produced is profit.
Now you get it! More specifically, most camera companies feed customers a marketing line. You don't know what you're really going to get until the specs are announced. Why should this be a surprise.
Perhaps you should stop expecting that.
In the US and Europe you are correct. I believe in Asia Canon does well in mirrorless. I believe Neuro posted figures a while back, but I don't recall the specifics.
Except in Asia, where it sold near the top of the lists, and was never subject to price cutting.
And possibly to a new level of unprofitability. Sony puts out great tech, but apparently their cameras (as a total product) aren't that great, since they don't seem to be stealing a lot of profit from Canon...or even Nikon.
Profitability is more important than capability.
Can pretty much stop right here.
3 years, apparently, is not enough time for that to happen.
Could happen, no signs of it yet.
The tl;dr answer is:
- Profitability is more important than capability
- Canon's doing a good job of market anticipation so far, with the notable exception of the M in the US and Europe.
Orangutan
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jeffa4444 said:
I agree that NAB is not traditionally the place for the launch of a DSLR, but there is history to support it and a case for it. First of all, the 5D Mk III was launched in March of 2012 on the 25th anniversary of the first EOS camera release. NAB is the week of April 12, so it's not far off of that. The March date is otherwise unnoteworthy so I doubt they will launch on the 28th anniversary of EOS. The first notable show AFTER the march anniversary is NAB. If the 5D Mk IV does indeed include 4K video, it would give Canon a reason to launch it during NAB. I'm not saying I believe it will happen 100%, I'm just saying there is a chance of it with good reason. Otherwise, they will probably launch in the summer after retailers have had a chance to clear some Mark III inventory.
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Orangutan said:
Yes, but my point was that they didn't launch some crazy new camera called the 3D. Instead, they took what they had and adapted it into a practical 50MP camera and named it as a modified version of a current product. If you go back and read the old info on the 3D, the only thing that was correct was the high MP sensor. It didn't go into a 1D style body, video features are limited and so on.
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"To Canon, all that matters is that it's a profitable product. Canon corporate doesn't care whether the video is good or not, they just care if it makes them a profit. On that criterion, it appears to be doing exceptionally well."
You're getting a little carried away with the "profit and nothing else" idea. I work for a Japanese electronics company and I work with Canon (I will be at NAB with both) and I have worked for several Japanese electronics companies over the last 20 years. Yes, profit is very important to these companies and yes, annoyingly so sometimes. BUT the Japanese are also very proud of what they do and what they make and DO want to make the best products they can, they are just conservative by nature. Companies like Canon (and the one I work for) can be annoyingly slow to change, but due to their enormous resources they continue to move forward their product lines because ultimately you have to have something new to sell to keep your customers coming back. They also occasionally hit one out of the park which blows everyone away. I think these occasional homeruns raise expectations among some consumers just as they do for Apple. When I was a Product Manager at Panasonic I would sit in a monthly forecast meeting with Accounting on one side and Sales on the other - Accounting would say "less inventory and higher margins". Sales would say "higher inventory and lower margins" and I (we in marketing) would have to find the balance AND communicate what the market wants to Japan. It is not easy to influence product change, let me tell you. I invented Apple CarPlay in 2008! I literally sent a picture to Japan with the display of an iPhone pasted over a car stereo. Do you think they listened? Obviously I'm kidding about inventing it (don't want to be sued by Apple) but I really did send that picture 6 years ago.
My point is that yes, profit is very important but the products are important too. The people who work for Canon navigate through a very difficult process to make this stuff. AND in answer to the guy talking about Intel's development plan: Canon has a 5 year plan, they just aren't telling us about it. I have one from Japan for my products and I'm not telling either!
You're getting a little carried away with the "profit and nothing else" idea. I work for a Japanese electronics company and I work with Canon (I will be at NAB with both) and I have worked for several Japanese electronics companies over the last 20 years. Yes, profit is very important to these companies and yes, annoyingly so sometimes. BUT the Japanese are also very proud of what they do and what they make and DO want to make the best products they can, they are just conservative by nature. Companies like Canon (and the one I work for) can be annoyingly slow to change, but due to their enormous resources they continue to move forward their product lines because ultimately you have to have something new to sell to keep your customers coming back. They also occasionally hit one out of the park which blows everyone away. I think these occasional homeruns raise expectations among some consumers just as they do for Apple. When I was a Product Manager at Panasonic I would sit in a monthly forecast meeting with Accounting on one side and Sales on the other - Accounting would say "less inventory and higher margins". Sales would say "higher inventory and lower margins" and I (we in marketing) would have to find the balance AND communicate what the market wants to Japan. It is not easy to influence product change, let me tell you. I invented Apple CarPlay in 2008! I literally sent a picture to Japan with the display of an iPhone pasted over a car stereo. Do you think they listened? Obviously I'm kidding about inventing it (don't want to be sued by Apple) but I really did send that picture 6 years ago.
My point is that yes, profit is very important but the products are important too. The people who work for Canon navigate through a very difficult process to make this stuff. AND in answer to the guy talking about Intel's development plan: Canon has a 5 year plan, they just aren't telling us about it. I have one from Japan for my products and I'm not telling either!
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cosmopotter said:
I'll defer to your greater knowledge on that topic. My over-emphasis on profit was a rhetorical device to help remind people that these are not art works to be juried, but products to create profit. I'm sure everyone in the company wants to make good products, but there are many ways to judge a good DSLR product: reliability, durability, lens and accessory lines, etc. Having the best sensor or the best video may be legitimate criteria, but they are not the only two legitimate criteria.
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Orangutan said:
Absolutely correct. They are by no means easy to work with/for but there is no doubt that making a profit is one of the most important factors.
The 5Ds and 5DsR seem like quite niche products but they wouldn't have created them if they couldn't make a profit on them. The takeaway from the release of these two new cameras is that the 5D Mk IV is going to look just like these - no flip out screen, no pop up flash, etc. The economies of making ONE body and adapting it to 3 cameras are quite obvious.
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Canon Rumors said:
I would love to see Canon fight this:
Alexa 65 - APS-C Medium Format Sensor 65mm with res of 6.5K and output 4:4:4 Pure Digital Goodness for rental ONLY!
Have you forgotten this?Lee Jay said:
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Diko said:Canon Rumors said:
I would love to see Canon fight this:
Alexa 65 - APS-C Medium Format Sensor 65mm with res of 6.5K and output 4:4:4 Pure Digital Goodness for rental ONLY!
Have you forgotten this?Lee Jay said:
The Alexa 65MM camera houses a super-stitched version of the regular Alexa sensor and as with the Alexa XT turns to Codex for recording medium. Both Panavision and Arri are viewing 65/70mm as an alternative to 3D for studios to deploy to keep a better quality out-of-home experience at the theatre.
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kobeson said:
That agrees with the information received by Northlight's Keith Cooper.
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_5d4.html
However, rather than independent confirmation it could just be the same rumour doing the rounds of the Internet.
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