Where are you EOS 70D?

[EchoLocation]

Wow... Sad news for Canon fans. If the 70D has the same sensor as the 60D and similar AF, then it will truly be a waste of an upgrade.
As has been said beforee, the 7D is ancient by now(2009!) and badly needs an upgrade.
If Canon releases any other cameras over 800 dollars with that same 18MP sensor it will be ridonculous.
This is why I switched, I got tired of the same glacial change and ultra high introductory pricing of Canon products.

 

[Marsu42]

Wow... Sad news for Canon fans. If the 70D has the same sensor as the 60D and similar AF, then it will truly be a waste of an upgrade.

Next to the gimmicks I'd at least expect the 70d to have 11 af points like the 6d, maybe even the 7d-type af - so depending on the price of course it'd be an excellent and capable camera, though considering the competition a little underwhelming and lacking the "wow!" factor.

 

[honsten]

I honestly think we'll see new sensors this time around. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the 7DII to be shown off at Cp+, maybe given a rough release date, like spring... It just won't be released immediately.

Canon know full well how old that 18MP sensor is and they haven't been sitting idle for the last three years. It would be immensely stupid to warm-over the 60D like people are saying will happen...

 

[MintMark]

I dont care about how many pixels it has. Just improve high iso performance and dynamic range and I will buy it

You could get a full frame camera and crop the pictures to achieve that...

 

[unfocused]

So much hand-wringing and over-the-top comments over basically a "filler" post that doesn't even carry a CR rating.

This is pure speculation folks. Nothing more.

However, I do particularly enjoy all the people who swear the won't buy a 70D unless it has the same sensor as a 7DII. I'm sure Canon would be quaking in their boots for fear that all those people who want to buy a 70D would have to buy a 7DII instead.

 

[TheBadger]

It is ridiculous if they put the same old 18 mpix sensor in the 70D!
I will definitely NOT buy 70D if it uses the same sensor.

Make at least a new sensor with better iso performance and better dynamic range!!!

I dont care about how many pixels it has. Just improve high iso performance and dynamic range and I will buy it

I agree. It's not the mega pixels, 18MP is actually very good number of pixels for an APS-C sensor. Sigh... :-\ and all I wanted was a swivel screen, a shoulder display and above all a compelling sensor in a relatively small body. As other members have pointed out, the now dreaded 18MP sensor was actually good... 3 years ago!

 

[wayno]

I would rather be run over by a bus then believe that Canon would not improve on the 60D, especially after the 60Da.

Methinks you're taking your 60Ds too seriously then

 

[jrista]

maybe it´s just impossible to improve the sensor with canons current 500nm manufacturing process?

they have kept improving it for what 8-10 years?

so until canon has a new manufacturing process online they would have no other choice then using the same sensor.

I'm ready to accept that QE can be improved with getting rid of the current 500nm manufacturing process (http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/24/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/), however Canon sensors have huge reading noise at low ISO (which limits the dynamic range).
http://www.sensorgen.info/

Can that also be improved just by changing the process?

I fear that Canon sensor tech cannot keep up with e.g. Sony not just because of a single reason but a multitude of reasons so probably the cure is also not that simple...but let's hope that they can fix it and don't introduce any new APS-C body with the old (by now basically obsolete) tech 18MP Canon sensor.

It's not the process per-se...its the technology. Sony switched away from using analog noise reduction to using digital noise reduction. Canon currently uses an analog CDS per pixel. Sony uses a variety of noise reduction techniques, including digital CDS, in their approach to CP-ADC. When an Exmor sensor is refreshed, a refresh read is done to determine the intrinsic electronic (dark current) signal. When counting that signal in CP-ADC, the count is negative, and that count for each pixel is stored in a cache per column. When the image signal is read out, the cached reset signal is intrinsically applied during image signal counting, effectively eliminating dark current noise. The fact that each column has it's own ADC operating in parallel, the ADC's can run at a lower clock, reducing downstream noise (one of the primary sources of Canon high ISO read noise, or at least it was until the current generation of Canon sensors). Additionally, since each column has its own ACD, vertical banding can be greatly reduced or eliminated as the differential between columns can be detected and compensated for.

I believe Canon has similar technology. The only way they could have achieved a 9.5fps readout of a 120mp sensor is with parallel ADC. Their press releases regarding that sensor clearly state that on-die parallel processing of some kind was used. Whether it is a form of CP-ADC with digital NR or something else that is still analog, I don't know...I've never found any explicit specs. Regardless...if Canon does move to a 180nm process, that die shrink would give them a hell of a lot of additional room on sensor die to include column-parallel electronics and basic image processing (i.e. noise reduction).

 

[TheBadger]

However, I do particularly enjoy all the people who swear the won't buy a 70D unless it has the same sensor as a 7DII. I'm sure Canon would be quaking in their boots for fear that all those people who want to buy a 70D would have to buy a 7DII instead.

Some part of me actually wonders if some rumors are actually deliberately leaked by Canon as part of a stealth market research plan.

Why release the 70D then? Just merge the 2 lines with a 7DmkII.

 

[Marsu42]

I honestly think we'll see new sensors this time around. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the 7DII to be shown

Famous last words :-> ? ... you should do a search for the exact sentence, I remember it being written like this before the 600d & 650d.

 

[taz]

I dont care about how many pixels it has. Just improve high iso performance and dynamic range and I will buy it

You could get a full frame camera and crop the pictures to achieve that...

Very good comment... does any full frame camera have a swirvel screen?

 

[jrista]

I believe Canon has similar technology.

well of course canon knows how to do it... it´s not some alien technology.

they just have to do it.

but seeing all the fanboys being happy with mediocre sensors "it´s the photographer not the camera" .. why should canon hurry?
their "old stuff" is selling well.

no, it makes more sense for the management to maximize todays profit.
and if that backfires in a few years, they will work at other companys.
that is how these things usually work.. make the shareholder happy.. then walk to greener pastures before the cardhouse collapses.

but i think canon has a huge userbase and can afford it to be mediocre... for some time.

when i say "mediocre" is speak about sensors.. not cameras.
i still like the handling of canon cameras more.

it´s just that nikon user saw a image quality improvement in 2012... canon user not so much.

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

I believe Canon's blunder is not that they are trying to suck their customers dry on crappy technology...Canon's blunder was not remaining innovative throughout the last five years or so, creating patents in lock-step with Sony. To play catch-up, Canon also has to play dodge-ball...they have to dodge Sony patents while concurrently trying to come up with their own, and with Sony owning so many balls to throw, Canon has a really difficult task on their hands.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

70D goes back to the 6.3fps of 50D (now it is able to be a new feature again), gets the MFA of the 50D back again (to be trumpeted as a new feature improved over the 60D), keeps same or similar sensor as latest Rebel, adds some GPS/WiFi stuff, keeps flip screen of 60D.

7D2 - 7D+5D3 AF,new sensor (one could hope it offers proof they can do exmor-like but who knows),gps/wifi stuff

 

[Brock]

I believe Canon has similar technology.

well of course canon knows how to do it... it´s not some alien technology.

they just have to do it.

but seeing all the fanboys being happy with mediocre sensors "it´s the photographer not the camera" .. why should canon hurry?
their "old stuff" is selling well.

no, it makes more sense for the management to maximize todays profit.
and if that backfires in a few years, they will work at other companys.
that is how these things usually work.. make the shareholder happy.. then walk to greener pastures before the cardhouse collapses.

but i think canon has a huge userbase and can afford it to be mediocre... for some time.

when i say "mediocre" is speak about sensors.. not cameras.
i still like the handling of canon cameras more.

it´s just that nikon user saw a image quality improvement in 2012... canon user not so much.

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

I believe Canon's blunder is not that they are trying to suck their customers dry on crappy technology...Canon's blunder was not remaining innovative throughout the last five years or so, creating patents in lock-step with Sony. To play catch-up, Canon also has to play dodge-ball...they have to dodge Sony patents while concurrently trying to come up with their own, and with Sony owning so many balls to throw, Canon has a really difficult task on their hands.

Canon has the most patents of any camera company, & is #3 in the world when it comes to patents.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/11/ibm-maintains-top-spot-in-global-patent-rankings-canon-overtake/


Canon invests 10% of their revenue into R&D.

http://www.photographyblog.com/news/canon_registers_record_number_of_patents/


Sony has more invested in fabrication, but that doesn't mean they're doing more R&D or are ahead in patents.

 

[Sphyn0x]

70D goes back to the 6.3fps of 50D (now it is able to be a new feature again), gets the MFA of the 50D back again (to be trumpeted as a new feature improved over the 60D), keeps same or similar sensor as latest Rebel, adds some GPS/WiFi stuff, keeps flip screen of 60D.

7D2 - 7D+5D3 AF,new sensor (one could hope it offers proof they can do exmor-like but who knows),gps/wifi stuff

If it will be, as you're saying, I'll be happy with 70D. Maybe new sensor..

 

[tim1970]

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20130124_584693.html


Can any provide a 'better-than-machine-translation' translation of this interview? I'm struggling to make any sense of the automatic one but unfortunately do not speak japanese! I'd be really interested to see what was ACTUALLY said.


Cheers!

Here is a better translation I found on another website...


DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…
MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

DKW: For example, your rival, Sony exceeded some of the limits that had been holding them back last year by asking themselves, “How far can we go?” They pursued the RX Series which is now in the market and delivered the goods, literaly, to their customers. And while Canon cameras will always be known for things like their high image quality, functionality, and great performance, somewhere along the line I get the impression that Canon began behaving as if it were the be-all and end-all in the camera world. The 7D seemed, in a sense, to be Canon’s attempt at showing its sensitivity and desire to go beyond its limits but, Mr. Maeda, do you personally have an interest in pursuing such “extreme” products like your competitors?

MM: Naturally, I want a camera to be something you put in your hand, peer out in the world with, and become happy with. And I absolutely want them to get smaller. I will refrain from commenting on other companies’ products, but speaking of our own, while cameras like the PowerShot S Series are considered small, they are still massive in my mind. We want to change that. And we will continue to pursue improvement in areas like production quality and the overall quality of our products in addition to high image quality.

 

[kubelik]

thanks for that version of the translation, tim. also, good on the interviewer for being blunt and to the point. I'm a supporter of canon products but I do think they still need to look at themselves with a critical eye and work on continually improving, just like every company should.

 

[jrista]

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

you realize that canon is in the top 5 for filing patents for years?

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e02480508dde

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/01/20/most-innovative-companies-24-7/1823001/

and if if canon would desperately need a patent.. they could license it or exchange patents with sony.

my company does it all the time, sony does it, canon does it.

patents are not the real problem i think.
but to have more circuits, more logic, on a sensor you need a smaller litho process.
and that is canons problem right now.

i predict that in a few years we will see a jump in canons image quality and todays cameras will have the stigma of "that last 500nm generation".

unfortunately that does not help me right now.
i don´t need better high iso performance, i need better DR and better detail rendering.
i do most stuff on a tripod at ISO 100 or with strobes.

for my sports photography (motorbikes) i could need the better AF of the 5D MK3 but it´s not really worth the money for me. i would not use it often enough so i could justify spending the money.
so i keep my 5D MK2 until canon produces a camera that offers a noticeable better image quality.

I did not say patents overall...just image sensor patents. I know Canon is a top patent producer in general, however Canon has a very broad and diverse imaging presence, which involves patents for optics, fabrication, manufacture, and other things in addition to sensor patents. Sony's IC division, particularly their imaging sensor division, has been pounding out R&D and patents in that one area for the last few years. They have spent tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents, which is why they are so deeply in debt right now.

To my knowledge, Canon has not patented as much image sensor technology as Sony has in the last several years.

 

[jrista]

Poked around patentfish for a while. As far as I could tell, counting patents for CMOS image sensors, solid-state imagers, color filter arrays, etc. I counted about 27 patents for Canon, and over 60 for Sony before finally stopping. I'd say Sony has about three times the image sensor related patents as Canon does since 2009.

 

[Brock]

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

you realize that canon is in the top 5 for filing patents for years?

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e02480508dde

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/01/20/most-innovative-companies-24-7/1823001/

and if if canon would desperately need a patent.. they could license it or exchange patents with sony.

my company does it all the time, sony does it, canon does it.

patents are not the real problem i think.
but to have more circuits, more logic, on a sensor you need a smaller litho process.
and that is canons problem right now.

i predict that in a few years we will see a jump in canons image quality and todays cameras will have the stigma of "that last 500nm generation".

unfortunately that does not help me right now.
i don´t need better high iso performance, i need better DR and better detail rendering.
i do most stuff on a tripod at ISO 100 or with strobes.

for my sports photography (motorbikes) i could need the better AF of the 5D MK3 but it´s not really worth the money for me. i would not use it often enough so i could justify spending the money.
so i keep my 5D MK2 until canon produces a camera that offers a noticeable better image quality.

I did not say patents overall...just image sensor patents. I know Canon is a top patent producer in general, however Canon has a very broad and diverse imaging presence, which involves patents for optics, fabrication, manufacture, and other things in addition to sensor patents. Sony's IC division, particularly their imaging sensor division, has been pounding out R&D and patents in that one area for the last few years. They have spent tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents, which is why they are so deeply in debt right now.

To my knowledge, Canon has not patented as much image sensor technology as Sony has in the last several years.

Where did you get that figure that Sony has spent " tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents"?

You say that Canon's ranking in patents doesn't matter because they make lenses, scanners & printers as well?

Sony makes TVs, computers, mp3 players, headphones, amplifiers, speakers, projectors, movies, TV shows, video game consoles, video games, financial services companies, a record label, & I think they even have a piece of MGM Resorts/Gaming. All that combined is was $78.9 billion last year.

Canon just makes cameras, scanners, printers & medical equipment (which is all based on imaging tech). It's revenue was $45 billion last year. 10% of which went to R&D.ar. 10% of which went to R&D.

Poked around patentfish for a while. As far as I could tell, counting patents for CMOS image sensors, solid-state imagers, color filter arrays, etc. I counted about 27 patents for Canon, and over 60 for Sony before finally stopping. I'd say Sony has about three times the image sensor related patents as Canon does since 2009.

Canon has about 2,500 patents a year. If you found 27 relating to their primary part for their main division, I'm inclined to believe that's not an accurate assessment. 27 out of some 10,000 doesn't seem very realistic.