What will Canon bring to the table with the EOS R1?

[Chig]

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All Canon needs to do is put in a BIG high nickel content stainless steel plate on the bottom of the R1 that will act as the out-to-air thermal output of a BIG Internal Heat Sink for the internal high-heat-producing CPUs and RAM memory of the camera to give it a full non-overheating 12-to-16 hour shooting day typical of news reporting and sports/action workloads!

If Canon does that along with 60 fps fps DCI 8K 8192 x 4320 pixel video capture and 30 fps Burst rate Full-Size 3:2 stills, the R1 will be a total PRO-CAMERA category winner!

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Doesn't seem necessary , especially as the R1 is probably stills focused (R5 doesn't overheat with stills) and will have 2 processors and 2 CF express slots like 1DXiii and large body . I think it will have any overheating issues at all.

Also stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor compared with aluminium , copper or even magnesium which would make much effective heatsinks.

Even just leaving the rear of the magnesium body exposed (behind the flippy screen) would help heat dissipation enormously but again unnecessary I think

 

[David - Sydney]

Well I doubt a firmware update would yield the blazing 30 FPS shutter speed. But in some ways the R5 is already superior:

• 8K Raw internal with 4:2:2 color vs No raw
• Downsampled 4K vs Pixel binned
• Higher resolution LCD
• Superior ergonomics
• Better color science, by most accounts
• Records to more affordable, but faster media
• Cost almost half as much

I replaced my R5 with the A7S III... a camera which offers a good balance and reliable operation. But if the choice was between the unreasonably priced, inferior video shooting A1 and the R5? I’m thinking I would still have the R5.

Interesting that the R5 and A1 are being directly compared even though they are in vastly different price points. Maybe similar to R5/A7Siii discussions previously. A couple of other differences if we are going down that path...
No top LCD
30fps is lossy jpg vs 20fps raw (same as R5)
10fps mechanical shutter vs 12fps R5
=> R5 slows down with <50% battery though
Cropped 4k120 (if I understand correctly)
The downsampled 4k is from 5.8k rather than from 8k
Balance with bigger lenses
Higher res EVF but it drops to the same res as the R5 when using 240fps.
No DCI video modes

There will be many direct comparisons in the future especially after Canon's next firmware release. Sony left their marketing announcement very late compared to previous releases. I imagine that they learnt from the R5 not to say anything early that cannot be provided to meet reasonable record times. Sony has done some good thermal work for 8K recording in a small body and battery life.
The fact that there will be now 2 x 8k capable mirrorless bodies in less than 12 months is remarkable.

The ruggednesss/form factor of the 1DXiii and D6 and pro support will keep them going but the A1 in the same price bracket beats them in specs easily now. The reviews of the 1DXiii were fantastic but things have moved quickly since.
Still can't understand why Sony went with 50mp vs 45mp (native 8k width). Seems to have caused them more processing work.

 

[David - Sydney]

Doesn't seem necessary , especially as the R1 is probably stills focused (R5 doesn't overheat with stills) and will have 2 processors and 2 CF express slots like 1DXiii and large body . I think it will have any overheating issues at all.

Also stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor compared with aluminium , copper or even magnesium which would make much effective heatsinks.

Even just leaving the rear of the magnesium body exposed (behind the flippy screen) would help heat dissipation enormously but again unnecessary I think

The R5 hack to add a heat spreader to the rear body behind the LCD showed just how hot it would get. I don't know how badly the life expectancy of the LCD would be if it was turned in but I can't believe it would not have an impact. Speed etc could be throttled unless the rear LCD was turned out but the low temperature burn would still be an issue for touching it. Will be fascinating to see how Sony manages the thermal issues with a smaller body and only a tilt screen

 

[Chig]

It's interesting to see your thoughtful post, Harry. But I don't think that you can rely on any camera to be put on a tripod in order to disapate enough heat to make it a needed element to cool an otherwise too-warm camera. The reason is that it will often not be put on a tripod and then you are back to square 1. Canon could have routed their inner R5 heat sink metal strips to the tripod socket, but to my recollection the lensrentals teardown indicated that they did not bother to do so.

I previously suggested that Canon consider a small portion of one or more camera sides to contain a small hollow channel or channels through a stainless metal heat pipe to allow air to rise from the bottom to the top of the camera, dissipating heat naturally without need of a fan. It would be designed to allow moisture, or rain, to enter into it which would further cool the camera and there would be no way that moisture/water could enter any other region of the camera as is it totally enclosed within the heat pipe(s). The hole(s) on bottom & top could be quite small and almost unnoticeable.

Canon could even take this one step further and design the outer side walls to be a stainless metal design with continuous columns of small hollow channels allowing air to rise from small holes on the bottom to small holes in the top of the metal sides, almost unnoticeable. Of course the metal sides could still have a normal rubberized skin attached for normal ergonomic in-hand feel.

What do you think of this? If it has merit, then I'd be interested in your thoughts of how a possible design could be created and submitted to Canon. I don't have the ability to do this, but you probably do if you're interested.

Well stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor .

I would suggest on a camera like the R5 and R6 just leave the magnesium body uncovered behind the flippy screen and leave the screen folded out to improve airflow when the camera's getting too hot.

With the R1 the main focus will be stills (probably maximum resolution of 30mp too) and it will have a larger body , twin processor chips and twin CF express slots so very unlikely to have any overheating issues.

 

[Chig]

Today, Canon is fitting 32.5 M pixels with 2 photosites each into an APS-C sized area with the 90D and M6 II sensor. That's 2*32.5 = 65 M photosites on an APS-C sized area, and could be scaled up to 1.6^2*65 M = 166.4 M photosites on a FF sensor. With 4 photosites per pixel, that would result in 41.6 MP. So purely in terms of manufacturing the photosites, it seems Canon has the technology to pull off QPAF already.

Also, with regards to 33 MP being enough for 8K, it is worth noting that you need 45 MP if the sensor is also supposed to be able to output 3:2 stills.

A square sensor would be a better option I think

 

[Chig]

A race to see which dog gets the biggest meal in a new mirrorless era. Whether the total market is smaller or not is somewhat irrelevant, you still want to have the most of it. If you don't you might as well bail out.

The pro and high end enthusiast camera market is pretty stable (not many pro sports or wildlife photographers using smartphones) and these cameras are high profit margin so Canon and Sony both want to dominate this market whereas Nikon seems to have given up but may yet surprise us as Canon did last year

 

[Mahk43]

Sony show the A1 but it is clearly not as pro as a 1D serie body.
They are on the "multi-tool still/movie" segment like a R5 rather than 1D serie.

About fps, I think pros are not convinced with electronical shutter and will wait a R1 with a faster mechanical shutter.

About the eyefinder I'm not sure it is important for pros to be at 8 or 9M rather than staying arround 6 but with a solution to avoid any issue and be the closest to the mirror DSLR experience.

Sony has made a mistake giving the name A1 to the last body because it's the last number they could give to a premium body. Except if they name a A0 for another pro body one day but I doubt. That mean for me they will never go on the real pro bodies like the 1D.

It is clear that Sony and Canon will compete on the A7/R5/A1 segment of multi-tool premium body but not on the pro unbreakable and reliable, 1D serie segment.
For this last segment, Canon is unbeatable because it is not just a question of body, but also services, network, support and everything that makes why, at the end ,main medias uses this kind of body for main events in sports, politics etc.

Other mistake from Sony is the price, because with such a high price, it is now very easy for Canon to justify a bigger price than the 1Dxiii for the next R1, like 8 or 9000. It was an issue for them, and Sony help them to take the step

Last mistake is the calendar, as Olympics will certainly be canceled, and main medias count only on sports that continue for now, but not investing that much, I doubt it would be profitable to launch a new pro body now. I think Canon is waiting, they know they can invest this time to make a better product and be ready for full pro support when they will launch it.

Finally all this to say that we can't really compare the A1 and the future R1

 

[landon]

The A1 is now the best selling mirrorless camera on Amazon. Consequently, the R5 is bumped up to #2-#5, with the R6 also getting a bump. They seem like bargains, with a better body.
Sony bought Minolta. They're doing their best to get good products out. They don't have the capacity to make good bodies (yet), but they make up for it in software. It's small, and fits in small bag.
A1 will sell to a few pros and wealthy enthusiasts and utubers. If the R1's body is between R5 and 1D, then I can see not only pros but MANY enthusiasts getting one also.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

The R5 hack to add a heat spreader to the rear body behind the LCD showed just how hot it would get. I don't know how badly the life expectancy of the LCD would be if it was turned in but I can't believe it would not have an impact. Speed etc could be throttled unless the rear LCD was turned out but the low temperature burn would still be an issue for touching it. Will be fascinating to see how Sony manages the thermal issues with a smaller body and only a tilt screen

A1 overheats too.
It just takes longer.
It is the same system as A7S III.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

there is always some delay as "instant" parallel read for each pixel doesn't exist in reality. I would need to check the patents for Canon's global shutter for how it exactly works.
Sony have reduced their read sensor time and are getting closer to an effective global shutter.

I do not think global shutter works quite like that but I can't find detailed information about any implementation except CCD.
As far as I can tell global shutter turns the entire sensor on at once and the captured image gets pushed to local registers to be read later from the image processor.
The exposure is more important than how the sensor is read from.

 

[padam]

Sony bought Minolta. They're doing their best to get good products out. They don't have the capacity to make good bodies (yet), but they make up for it in software. It's small, and fits in small bag.

They fully have the capacity, it is simply about making more money by not changing the body if they already have enough users who kind of accepted the problems with a body like this and adapted to them. And people are simply attracted more to head-grabbing specs than other features.

The R5 also fits in a small bag, the practical size difference is really not that big with these cameras but moving those buttons just by a hair makes all the difference regarding how comfortably you can reach them or avoid accidental presses.

 

[landon]

They fully have the capacity, it is simply about making more money by not changing the body if they already have enough users who kind of accepted the problems with a body like this and adapted to them. And people are simply attracted more to head-grabbing specs than other features.

The R5 also fits in a small bag, the practical size difference is really not that big with these cameras but moving those buttons just by a hair makes all the difference regarding how comfortably you can reach them or avoid accidental presses.

Regarding size. I was referring to the upcoming R1. Sony enthusiasts carry the expensive a9ii/s3/a1 in their small bag. It's hard to that with 1dxiii. So if the R1 is just a bit bigger than the R5, say equal to 5div in size. I can see Canon enthusiasts willing to fork out big bucks for it, not just pros.

 

[mpmark]

The ONLY THING that gets me going for the $6498 USD Sony A1 is the 30 fps Burst Rate at the full 3:2 still photo size image frame and the 120 fps 4K video!

It seems you got fooled as well with their 50MP x 30FPS nonsense, it’s actually not faster then a R5, its marketing garbage.
At 30FPS it can’t shoot uncompressed raw. It can only at 20fps. And mech shutter is only good up to 10fps. You want 30FPS? It has to be compressed raw or heif or jpg.

shooting uncompressed RAW
R5: 12FPS mech, 20FPS elec
A1: 10 FPS mech, 20FPS elec.

this is pretty much a R5 for $2800 more, and crappy ergonomics, no thanks! And canon hasnt even released their flagship.

 

[Proscribo]

About fps, I think pros are not convinced with electronical shutter and will wait a R1 with a faster mechanical shutter.

Pros did fine with 1/60s* scanning shutters a long ago and now the a1 electronic shutter does full sensor scan in 1/200s* while 1DX III does it in 1/300s* with mechanical shutter, so I'd say while faster is better we have already reached the point of diminishing returns for majority of photography. Actually had Sony aimed a1 straight against 1DX and gone with a bit less resolution, the electronic shutter would probably be faster than the mechanical one in 1DX!

*Really each one is a bit faster since that is the flash sync speed i.e. whole sensor is active for a tiny fraction.

It seems you got fooled as well with their 50MP x 30FPS nonsense, it’s actually not faster then a R5, its marketing garbage.
At 30FPS it can’t shoot uncompressed raw. It can only at 20fps. And mech shutter is only good up to 10fps. You want 30FPS? It has to be compressed raw or heif or jpg.

shooting uncompressed RAW
R5: 12FPS mech, 20FPS elec
A1: 10 FPS mech, 20FPS elec.

this is pretty much a R5 for $2800 more, and crappy ergonomics, no thanks! And canon hasnt even released their flagship.

If you are going there, note that the R5 shoots 12-bit in electronic shutter regardless of shooting speed, 13-bit in H+ (12fps) and full 14-bit only at 8fps max, and a1 has over 3x faster electronic shutter (about 1/60s vs 1/200s). While a1 does the 30fps with lossy compression, according to dpreview it (who say Sony has said so but who knows what is the truth) it is still 14-bit, so it looks like the 20fps would be full 14-bit lossless compressed.

PS. R5 can't shoot uncompressed, because Canon, like most sane camera manufacturers, realized ages ago that there's this neat thing called lossless compression.

 

[padam]

Regarding size. I was referring to the upcoming R1. Sony enthusiasts carry the expensive a9ii/s3/a1 in their small bag. It's hard to that with 1dxiii. So if the R1 is just a bit bigger than the R5, say equal to 5div in size. I can see Canon enthusiasts willing to fork out big bucks for it, not just pros.

I think at least similar 20fps mechanical as the 1DX III so that would mean the same LP-E19 battery, so it's going to get bigger than an R5 with a vertical grip, and it wil have the smart-controller for both portrait and landscape orientation. They may decide to remove the two joysticks as it is not really necessary anymore.

They will leave the R5 to enthusiasts - they still have plenty of cash left to burn for the optics

 

[usern4cr]

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NO! It's almost identical to what you described! Cooling tubes through the camera body! Where DID you get that idea from?

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I didn't get that idea from anywhere else but in my noggin'. It's just obvious to me. It's not really rocket science, anyone could have thought of it.
If you're interested, I'll send my background directly to you, if it makes any difference (it doesn't need to be here).

If you really mean what you posted, feel free to contact me directly. In the meantime, keep up your posts - whether intricate fact or fantasy (preferably both as long as they're hilarious ) !

 

[privatebydesign]

Pros did fine with 1/60s* scanning shutters a long ago and now the a1 electronic shutter does full sensor scan in 1/200s* while 1DX III does it in 1/300s* with mechanical shutter, so I'd say while faster is better we have already reached the point of diminishing returns for majority of photography. Actually had Sony aimed a1 straight against 1DX and gone with a bit less resolution, the electronic shutter would probably be faster than the mechanical one in 1DX!

*Really each one is a bit faster since that is the flash sync speed i.e. whole sensor is active for a tiny fraction.

If you are going there, note that the R5 shoots 12-bit in electronic shutter regardless of shooting speed, 13-bit in H+ (12fps) and full 14-bit only at 8fps max, and a1 has over 3x faster electronic shutter (about 1/60s vs 1/200s). While a1 does the 30fps with lossy compression, according to dpreview it (who say Sony has said so but who knows what is the truth) it is still 14-bit, so it looks like the 20fps would be full 14-bit lossless compressed.

PS. R5 can't shoot uncompressed, because Canon, like most sane camera manufacturers, realized ages ago that there's this neat thing called lossless compression.

According to Canon it is 1/250.

 

[usern4cr]

Well stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor .

I would suggest on a camera like the R5 and R6 just leave the magnesium body uncovered behind the flippy screen and leave the screen folded out to improve airflow when the camera's getting too hot.

With the R1 the main focus will be stills (probably maximum resolution of 30mp too) and it will have a larger body , twin processor chips and twin CF express slots so very unlikely to have any overheating issues.

I stand corrected (well, "sit corrected"). I think I said "stainless metal", but I should have said "non-corrosive heat conducting metal". Thanks for letting me know.

 

[usern4cr]

A square sensor would be a better option I think

I wholeheartedly agree! No more rotating for portraits! But, sadly, I don't think it will ever happen. But oh, I can dream, can't I?

 

[StevenA]

While I think the Alpha 1 specs are amazing I think Sony dropped the ball with the form factor. They should have enlarged the body so that it it could house two batteries like Canon and Nikon does. I just think it might be too much to ask someone to mate that small body onto a 600mm f4 lens and hand hold it. The ergonomics would be horrible. Yes you can buy the optional battery grip to complete the system, but I think forcing professionals to do that was a bad move. But we'll see I guess.

Canon WILL develop the R1 with a built in grip as per usual of their professional level bodies and use the extra space for cooling the video.