A Bit More About the New “Big White” Lenses Coming from Canon [CR3]

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
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Re: A Bit More About the New \

does it have to be a threaded lead SCREW? Would non-threaded simple "lead rods" [2 or better 3 at 120 degree orientation) not be sufficient? "Clamping" AF group/s in any desired position could be achieved with electromagnet/s, no?
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
208
113
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Re: A Bit More About the New \

Kit. said:
nchoh said:
fullstop said:
aha! alright. Canon USM is also piezo electric. Thanks for the information. 8)

That said, I'd still prefer LINEAR, gear-less, helicoid-free AF drives. :)
Good news for you, Canon has 2 versions of the STM motor. One is a gear-less and helicoid-free!
Actually, it is still "rotational" and comes with its own "lead-screw" helicoid.
I know. ;)
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,409
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Re: A Bit More About the New \

fullstop said:
does it have to be a threaded lead SCREW? Would non-threaded simple "lead rods" [2 or better 3 at 120 degree orientation) not be sufficient? "Clamping" AF group/s in any desired position could be achieved with electromagnet/s, no?
I wonder what you request next. A fully plastic lens mount, because having a metal one is obviously not "DPAF-friendly" enough?
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Re: A Bit More About the New \

Kit. said:
fullstop said:
does it have to be a threaded lead SCREW? Would non-threaded simple "lead rods" [2 or better 3 at 120 degree orientation) not be sufficient? "Clamping" AF group/s in any desired position could be achieved with electromagnet/s, no?
I wonder what you request next. A fully plastic lens mount, because having a metal one is obviously not "DPAF-friendly" enough?
i have no issue with hi-grade plastic mounts on inexpensive, light lenses. My few lenses with it are fine.
also, i was not "demanding something". I was simply asking about some aspects of Canon's STM implementations.
 

stevelee

FT-QL
Jul 6, 2017
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Re: A Bit More About the New \

I had a choice last fall of kit lenses when I bought my camera last fall between body only, STM, or L USM.

I decided to get the STM to hold me until I could afford and decide on other lenses. Moving from a T3i I didn’t really have FF range covered very well, so I decided against body only. The tests I saw suggested not a lot of IQ difference, and the L was maybe $500 more. I’m no pro, and if the weather is bad, I won’t be out taking pictures, so weather sealing is not much of a factor. Also, something gave me the impression that the STM might do better focusing on moving subjects when shooting video. Weight was probably more of a factor for me than the f-stop loss on the long end. And then there was the $500 when I was about to do a cruise, 2 1/2 week’s in Hawaii, and a week in the LA area.

I don’t much care for the focus by wire, so I find myself using autofocus more than with other lenses. It works great, except when I was shooting some pick-up basketball, the autofocus seemed to hone in on the writing on the floor instead of the players. On subsequent nights, rather than learning how to set the autofocus to suit, I just went to manual focus, focused on the hoop, and let depth of field cover the whole court. That worked well enough, but defeated my using the project as a learning experience. I also tried a custom white balance, shooting a white piece of paper in the wonky lighting. There was plenty of light, but they don’t turn on the TV lights, and I bet there’re gaps in the spectrum. The flicker warning came on, so I turned on that compensation. The color result wasn’t so great, so subsequent nights I just used auto white balance and tried to fix in post, rather than taking along a proper gray card and running tests. The stabilization did work impressively.

I realize I have strayed from strictly STM issues. But the bottom line is that I have not regretted the STM lens choice, and the limitations have more to do with the laziness of the photographer than with the technology. And the $500 bought me a helicopter ride to the volcano that has since become more active, a submarine ride, and change left over to apply to one of my other tours.
 

sportskjutaren

Pro sports photographer
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Don Haines said:
A bit of history here...

The EF mount (EF stands for Electro Focus) came out in 1987. The primary design feature of the mount was that all communication to and from the lens be done through serial data streams (thus allowing auto-focus) and that there be no mechanical couplings such as levers... It replaced the FD mount, which had levers and a couple of dedicated pins. FD mount was not conducive to automatic focusing. Canon had realized that it was a dead end, and eventually Nikon also realized that mechanical linkages were passe….

Fast forward to today, where the EF mount is still in primary use.... The mount still works well, but as computing power and data communication speeds have increased, the slow communications between lens and body have started to limit system performance. Canon has patented a new version of this mount which will allow for the negotiation between camera and lens of higher data rates. How this works is you turn on the camera, it sends a query (using the slow EF link speed) to the lens asking what the max supported lens link speed is. If there is no answer (legacy EF glass), then it continues at the EF link speed. If it responds by saying it supports a faster speed, then both switch to that faster speed. We expect to see this very soon, be it on new EF bodies, or if it is a new mount... Canon has stated that there will be an "elegant" solution with a new mirrorless mount, and the odds are exceptionally high that this will be part of it....


As far as mount size goes, you can make the flange shorter, but as a result the lens will have to bend light from regular and telephoto lenses more, and the result will be more chromatic aberration and there will be more vignetting as a result of the light hitting the sensor at a greater angle. For wide angle lenses, you are better off as there will be less vignetting and less chromatic aberrations.... a classic example of trade-offs... There is no A is better than B, they both have their strengths and their weaknesses. You can not say that the current EF mount is not optimal without acknowledging that whatever any possible new mirrorless mount is, that it will also not be optimal. You can not cherry pick your conditions.

...
Thanks for sharing Your knowledge on this!

FYI, I have a degree as a "service engineer".
Which means I studied analog and digital electronics for three years about 30 years ago.
Enough for me to get a deeper understanding of that part than most others, at least that's what I like to believe ;)

It´s sad that most people discussing in this thread either didn't take their time to read Your post carefully enough.
Or they don't really understand the technical side of this well enough.

Basically, what You write. Is that Canon has developed a "version 2" of the EF-mount. That is fully backward compatible with the existing EF-mount.

Considering what happened since the EF mount was released. There is a possibility to upgrade the speed which the body and the lens communicates. Big, big, big time.
I do also see a possibility to actually ad new "functions" to the protocol.
And that creates a possibility of great AF improvements.
Without a need for a "new" mount that won't work with existing bodies and lenses.
Also, without a need for "adapters".

To me, it makes a lot of sense. A lot more than a new mount that won't work with older lenses (with or without "adapters").

Another part that's important to understand here. Is that a totally new mount unlikely will improve AF performance.
No matter of which kind of AF-motor that's inside the lens.

There is a lot to say about this.
One thing that's really important to understand here.
Is that a whole lot of AF-performance is built into the lens itself.
As an example. The EF 400/2,8L IS II USM has "sensors" that measures the position of focus, which improves accuracy from previous lenses. That didn't have this built in.
I.E. You can make USM faster with DPAF, without a totally new mount.

Considering the "trade-offs" with a totally new mount.
The only reason for introducing it. Would be the possibility to make the bodies smaller.

My very personal opinion is that I don't really want smaller bodies while working with "FF-lenses" especially lenses from 70-200/2,8 and bigger.
I do actually prefer the size of the 1D-series. Both for the ergonomic part. And how it affects the balance when working with l"big lenses". Also, it allows for bigger batteries, with a longer battery time. And a built-in ethernet port.

RGF said:
Will Canon put a drop in extender into their III super teles? This would allow them to raise their price point and give a real incentive for all current owners to upgrade.
...
Personally, I do definitely hope so.
N***n recently upgraded their V.2 of the 200-400 to a 180-400 with built-in TC, and reduced weight at the same time.
I would totally love a 400/2,8 with built-in 1,4X TC.
It would pretty much be 400/2,8 and a 600/4 (well 560/4) in the same lens.
Would be absolutely great for soccer and some other sports. And make the lens more versatile, without trade-offs for DOF.


Mr Majestyk said:
Clever, you know that has just to do with lack of glass and not the cameras AF,
...
Well, for somebody that actually worked during the recent "WC" in Russia.
I did see three photographers with Sony gear. And mostly Canon lenses on it.

That said. For Sony to actually take over a big part of sports photographers.
The need to improve their "pro support" big, big time.
At the WC, just like other really big sports events. Both Canon and N***n have both loaners and service such as cleaning bodies and lenses available at all games. If they can, they even fix broken gear, on place. (I had a worn out lens mount exchanged during the EURO 2016 in France).
So far Sony doesn´t offer this kind of service. (And their existing "pro service" is, so far, limited to a pretty small amount of countries around the world).
It´s also absolutely crucial that the build in the possibility to transfer images by FTP, to their cameras. Both wireless and thru ethernet. (On the really big events only Ethernet are stable enough, and both UEFA and FIFA offer at least on ethernet cable for each photographer. The only solution stable and fast enough in that kind of games/events).

For what it is worth. The games Sweden played, I did transmit images straight from my camera directly to a major Swedish newspaper. Most of them cropped in camera before transmitting them. (Other than that I also submitted my work to the worlds biggest photo agency.
Something not possible with Sony right now.

Another issue is battery life, and problems when the buffer gets full.

(And if somebody is interested, some of my images, and some tear sheets from the "World cup" can be found here: https://agency.jkpg-sports.photo/index/G0000FrucfpGrwrQ ).

[EDIT]
I do truly like the idea of Sony become a true competitor to both Canon & Nikon when it comes to pro/sports photo.
It would benefit us all.
And i would actually love to try their gear.
That said, I do think that Sony has several things to improve first.
[/EDIT]
 
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neonlight

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Jul 10, 2015
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Re: A Bit More About the New \

...so the EF replacement mount will be ...EF with either chip interfaces that can detect faster comms, or perhaps an extra pin that existing EF lenses won't have and wont comm to the new body?
 

sportskjutaren

Pro sports photographer
Re: A Bit More About the New \

neonlight said:
...so the EF replacement mount will be ...EF with either chip interfaces that can detect faster comms, or perhaps an extra pin that existing EF lenses won't have and wont comm to the new body?
The EF mount uses a serial interface.
To make it a little bit simplified.
It uses one pin for all communication from the body to the lens.
And another pin for all communication from the lens to the body.
(You can find a longer description here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF_lens_mount ).
With an "EF V2" using a higher transfer speed. There is really no need at all for another pin, at all.
Even if You want to add new functions to the existing protocols. IE cameras/lenses.
 
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Michael Clark

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming



Irrelevant. You're 'answering' my question with a discussion about possible improvements and 3rd party compatibility problems. You stated that Canon superteles need to be updated, "...to function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out." So I'll ask again...Why do you think the current versions won't function properly with whatever mirrorless camera is coming out? Especially given that current superteles function just fine with current Canon mirrorless cameras.

It's ok if you can't come up with a cogent answer, you were probably just spreading FUD anyway.


Let's say the new Canon FF mirrorless is capable of 20 fps with AF tracking between each frame.

Let's say the aperture diaphragm servos in many or most older Canon EF lenses, even the L series, aren't fast enough to support 20 fps because they've never had to be that fast before.

Let's say that some of the recent lens updates, including "underwhelming" ones (specifically, the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS III and EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS II) have upgraded aperture diaphragm servos that are fast enough to support 20 fps. Canon would not tell us about this "hidden" feature in lenses introduced for 2-3 years before the new 20 fps body is slated to be rolled out. That's not how Canon announces upcoming products.

This is how Canon has often operated in the past: silently including capability for planned future products (lenses, flashes, etc) in models introduced for 2-4 years before the new product is revealed. Only once the new product is rolled out does Canon assure everyone that the camera models introduced over the past couple of years or more already have the capability built-in to take advantage of the new features of the new product.

One example: The new 470EX-AI whiz-bang motorized self positioning bounce flash. It turns out that every camera body (except the 1x00D bargain basement Rebels) introduced by Canon since 2014 has the ability to use the new self positioning features of the 470EX-AI introduced in early 2018.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming



That doesn't make any sense. If a company makes an improvement to a product why wouldn't they talk about it? A simple statement like, "improvements to internal electronics to improve autofocus accuracy with the next generation of Canon cameras," would be a standard marketing phrase that Canon would have certainly highlighted if it were the case.

Of course, if such improvements aren't necessary because the lenses already will work just fine with future generations of cameras, then any imagined "internal stuff" wouldn't be disclosed because they don't exist.

Because that's not the way that Canon has done such things in the past.

Only when the new product with the new or upgraded features is announced and released does Canon reveal that other products released in the past 2-4 years already have the capability of taking advantage of the new features when working with the new product.

One example: The new 470EX-AI whiz-bang motorized self positioning bounce flash. It turns out that every camera body (except the 1x00D bargain basement Rebels) introduced by Canon since 2014 has the ability to use the new self positioning features of the 470EX-AI introduced in early 2018.

Why would Canon have announced in 2014 when they introduced the 7D Mark II, "Oh, by the way, the 7D Mark II has the built-in capability to drive the motorized self-positioning bounce flash we're going to introduce three and a half years from now?"

All that would have accomplished is

1) Tipping off the competition of a new product they are planning and allowing the competition three years to try and match or beat it

2) Making the product "ho-hum" by the time it is actually released three and a half years after they have told everyone they are creating it

and

3) Three-quarters of the people on CR bitching for three years about "when is Canon going to finally release the new motorized bounce head flash?"
 
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Michael Clark

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Just to share on this thread...

There are 2 technologies that are recently being discussed and they need to be understood to have an intelligent conversation -
1) DPAF
2) STM motors.

DPAF delivers all the additional benefits of focusing that was being sought. Each pixel pair is able to determine if focus is in front or behind and by how much (see Canon's site). Quad or multi pixel does not give any AF advantage more than what DPAF gives.

STM motors have defined steps, each step is a fixed angle from which the focus distance is known ahead of time. With the information that the DPAF can collect, the DIGIC processor can send information to the lens to smoothly and in a straightforward manner focus the lens. Albeit, a STM is slower than the USM motor. So STM works well with DPAF, or conversely, DPAF's additional information can be precisely used by STM lenses.

USM motors need a more complex algorithm to focus and needs to hunt to focus. This need to hunt (backwards /forwards) movement creates challenges for heavy focus lens groups that have inadequate motors.
SInce about 2010 USM lenses (at least the L-series) have included more accurate focus position sensors in the lens that can more accurately report to the camera the position of the focus assemblies and give the camera more accurate control over the positioning of the AF elements in those lenses. Roger Cicala talked about it in his well-known blog entry: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras/
 
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Michael Clark

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Yes because everyone wants to drive a 600mm f/4L IS I,II,III,whatever lens with a small mirrorless camera ;D
What makes you think mirrorless MUST necessarily also be small?
 

Michael Clark

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming



It's the *nearly all* that is the problem. Potentially Canon could get away with it by immediately withdrawing from sale/upgrading all of the older lenses that don't work so well with DPAF - and there's quite a few that would be affected.

Otherwise Canon have the nightmare of trying to sell a new camera which isn't totally compatible with all the lenses for that mount currently on sale.
In the past, Canon has usually silently included capability for use with future planned products with cameras released anywhere from 2-4 years before the new product with the new/increased feature is released.

One example: The new 470EX-AI whiz-bang motorized self positioning bounce flash. It turns out that every camera body (except the 1x00D bargain basement Rebels) introduced by Canon since 2014 has the ability to use the new self positioning features of the 470EX-AI introduced in early 2018.

Another example: When the first IS lens was released in 1995 every EOS body introduced since around 1992 already had the ability to control IS in the new lens.

In both cases above, as well as in other similar cases, Canon did not announce future compatibility with planned products having new/upgraded features and capabilities when they silently included the ability to work with those planned products in models introduced before the planned product. They waited until the new product was announced and then told everyone the previous products already had the capability to work with the new product.

How do we know that recent Canon lens updates don't include compatibility with new features or enhanced capabilities that the upcoming Canon FF mirrorless body will have? We don't.
 

Michael Clark

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I am not buying this rumor, at least the version III part.
Those lenses just haven't been out long enough.

Whatever happened to the 800mm II, I could believe that one it is long overdue.

A new 800mm f/5.6 L IS would be a version II, not a version III.
 

Michael Clark

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Re: A Bit More About the New \

8)
If this rumor is true, then there must be something more to these lenses than we are being told. As has been mentioned, there may be a faster communication protocol being implemented to be compatible with future cameras, or better AF motors to improve on focus speed or accuracy. Maybe somethings else? But optics improvements alone dont’t seem to be worth the effort when consumers are asking for other lenses.

That's typically the way Canon does things. When the first IS lens was announced in 1995, most EOS body introduced since around 1993 had the ability to use the new IS lens silently included when those bodies were released. When the 470EX-AI was introduced in early 2018, Canon also informed us that every body introduced since mid-2014 (other than the lowest entry level 1x00D Rebels) has the ability to control the new whiz-bang self aiming bounce head. There are plenty other such examples since the EF mount was introduced in 1987.
 

Michael Clark

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Clearly the 100-400mm, released two years ago as a complete revision of its predecessor, is not part of the discussion, Don. It's the very minimal, gratuitous "updates" we've seen in the past year which suggest that Canon, feeling some heat about mirrorless, is trying to keep the EF line going until a transition is acheived.
Either that or Canon has been releasing updated lenses with the (thus far silent) ability to work with new features and enhanced capabilities of planned future camera bodies that will use the EF mount.

It will be far from the first time products that were trashed by fanboys when they were introduced as "not enough of an upgrade" were later proved to have silently included the capability needed to take advantage of new products/features/technology revealed later when another new product was introduced that required that capability from the previous product (e.g. When the first IS lens was introduced by Canon in 1995 many of the bodies released over the previous 2-3 years already had the capability to control IS on the new lens.)
 
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Michael Clark

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Sony recently came out with some big glass for sport photography. Together with their A7 gets about 20 fps in focus. Canon's and Nikon's best gig can only deliver 10 fps focused. Even if they don't sell alot of lenses for those purposes, it's still a huge market and the only way to keep Sony off that market is to introduce a FF camera.
With certain lenses, even the A9 only gets 5 fps if you want it to track moving objects between each frame. Yeah, it can do 20 fps with a handful of lenses or if you don't need the focus distance to change from one frame to the next. With the same restriction, the Canon 1D X Mark II can shoot at 16fps. It can track focus between each frame at 14 fps with any EF lens, which the Sony can't do with more than a couple of specific FE G Master lenses.
 
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Michael Clark

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Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming



I guess you mean the a9. 20 fps with some lenses, 15 fps with others. The 1D X II does 14 fps. But hey, they're just numbers, right? Sure, unless your numbers are wrong.
The a9 is as slow as 5 fps with AF tracking between frames when adapting lenses such as the EF 300 f/2.8 l IS II or 500mm or 600mm IS II versions of the big whites (because Sony doesn't have a 300mm f/2.8 or 500mm f/4 or 600mm f/4 or 800mm f/5.6... )