A Bit More About the New “Big White” Lenses Coming from Canon [CR3]

YuengLinger

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 20, 2012
2,627
748
Southeastern USA
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.

Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
But your statement implied that some lenses don't work well specifically with DPAF, or at least that's how I interpreted it (as did jolyonralph).
You're absolutely right; I realized that upon re-reading my original post, hence the clarification. I've not encountered any EF L lens that is amazing with PDAF but terrible with LiveView.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
jolyonralph said:
The EF 70-300 IS, for example, is a lens that when used on the EOS M5 with official adaptor is next to useless. It hunts forwards and backwards constantly when trying to focus.
Which 70-300 IS lens? (There are four: Non-L, non-L MkII, L, DO.)
The current, Non-L MkII works great with DPAF on a 80D or 6D2.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,619
2,101
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

YuengLinger said:
Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.

Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.
So for you, the 'information' in this thread constitutes convincing evidence of incompatibility between current EF lenses and future mirrorless cameras?

Ah ha!!! Confirmation bias. ::)
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

YuengLinger said:
Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.

Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.
Not "adapter trouble". Most likely "Lens limitation trouble" with regards to "Live View / mirrorless / DPAF focusing".

Although Jony has not specified yet, I think he is referring to the Non L EF 70-300 IS USM [1st gen]. And likely liveView / mirrorless AF performance is the main reason why the Mk. II of that lens got a Nano-USM AF drive.
 
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jolyonralph

Kodak Brownie
Aug 25, 2015
1,103
323
50
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

fullstop said:
YuengLinger said:
Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.

Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.
Not "adapter trouble". Most likely "Lens limitation trouble" with regards to "Live View / mirrorless / DPAF focusing".

Although Jony has not specified yet, I think he is referring to the Non L EF 70-300 IS USM [1st gen]. And likely liveView / mirrorless AF performance is the main reason why the Mk. II of that lens got a Nano-USM AF drive.
I should have been more specific, sorry. Yes, it's the EF 70-300 IS USM Mark 1.

It would be interesting to see which if any of the current retail lenses have such issues. Maybe the older primes?
 

takesome1

EOS 6D MK II
Aug 23, 2013
1,490
122
98
Licking, Missouri
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

tron said:
neonlight said:
Then the only lens that needed update - the EF85mm 1.2L II - has kinda of being updated in the form of EF85mm 1.4L IS. All other lenses have satisfactory to superb speed...
How we forget the 180mm L macro.
 

unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,032
1,405
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

neuroanatomist said:
YuengLinger said:
Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.

Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.
So for you, the 'information' in this thread constitutes convincing evidence of incompatibility between current EF lenses and future mirrorless cameras?

Ah ha!!! Confirmation bias. ::)
Clearly you don't understand. Canon is updating many of its "L" lenses because they are secretly planning to abandon the EF mount. Therefore, we should all stop buying EF lenses today. And now we have clear evidence of problems with adapters because one person reports problems with one very old and never great lens.
 
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ERHP

EOS RP
May 9, 2013
368
254
San Diego
erhp.smugmug.com
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

unfocused said:
neuroanatomist said:
YuengLinger said:
Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.

Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.
So for you, the 'information' in this thread constitutes convincing evidence of incompatibility between current EF lenses and future mirrorless cameras?

Ah ha!!! Confirmation bias. ::)
Clearly you don't understand. Canon is updating many of its "L" lenses because they are secretly planning to abandon the EF mount. Therefore, we should all stop buying EF lenses today. And now we have clear evidence of problems with adapters because one person reports problems with one very old and never great lens.
Step 1: Update all "L" EF mount lenses
Step 2: Release camera with new mount that is incompatible w/ EF
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
208
113
Calgary
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

danski0224 said:
Most of this thread is FUD, so a little bit more can't hurt.

:)
Why do you think it is fine to sow Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) on this site? Some of us sincerely want a fun place to discuss Canon Rumors.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,409
788
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

jolyonralph said:
I should have been more specific, sorry. Yes, it's the EF 70-300 IS USM Mark 1.

It would be interesting to see which if any of the current retail lenses have such issues. Maybe the older primes?
75-300 and probably (but unlikely) 50/1.4?

That's the only "micro-USM" lenses currently being sold by B&H as new.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

jolyonralph said:
I should have been more specific, sorry. Yes, it's the EF 70-300 IS USM Mark 1.
maybe if you have a chance to try out the EF 70-300 IS Mk. II on your M5 in the same situation as the Mk. I ... to see whether they both show the same AF issues on DPAF/mirrorless? If you do, I'd be interested to hear about findings, thx!
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
208
113
Calgary
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Just to share on this thread...

There are 2 technologies that are recently being discussed and they need to be understood to have an intelligent conversation -
1) DPAF
2) STM motors.

DPAF delivers all the additional benefits of focusing that was being sought. Each pixel pair is able to determine if focus is in front or behind and by how much (see Canon's site). Quad or multi pixel does not give any AF advantage more than what DPAF gives.

STM motors have defined steps, each step is a fixed angle from which the focus distance is known ahead of time. With the information that the DPAF can collect, the DIGIC processor can send information to the lens to smoothly and in a straightforward manner focus the lens. Albeit, a STM is slower than the USM motor. So STM works well with DPAF, or conversely, DPAF's additional information can be precisely used by STM lenses.

USM motors need a more complex algorithm to focus and needs to hunt to focus. This need to hunt (backwards /forwards) movement creates challenges for heavy focus lens groups that have inadequate motors.
 

fullstop

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

agree with most of your posting.

Except:
nchoh said:
Quad or multi pixel does not give any AF advantage more than what DPAF gives.
yes it does. Quad Pixel will allow [virtual] "cross-sensitive AF fields". Dual-pixel - especially when all pixels have the same orientation for the 2 photo diodes [up/down or left/right] as in current Canon implementations - only allows equivalents of "line AF sensors" - and those only in 1 direction ... discussed this aspect a number of times already.
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
208
113
Calgary
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

fullstop said:
agree with most of your posting.

Except:
nchoh said:
Quad or multi pixel does not give any AF advantage more than what DPAF gives.
yes it does. Quad Pixel will allow [virtual] "cross-sensitive AF fields". Dual-pixel - especially when all pixels have the same orientation for the 2 photo diodes [up/down or left/right] as in current Canon implementations - only allows equivalents of "line AF sensors" - and those only in 1 direction ... discussed this aspect a number of times already.
You are right, I did not think about that.

However... with every dual-pixel giving distance information, the camera has a "3D" map and in most cases would be able to accurately determine the focus distance from adjacent pixels.

By treating every group of distance indeterminate pixels as a surface, the camera can interpolate the distance of each surface from it's edge. It would be, I believe, in practical terms, accurate enough.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,058
329
Vancouver, BC
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

jolyonralph said:
fullstop said:
YuengLinger said:
Ah ha!!! Adapter troubles.

Exactly why I asked about waiting to buy new EF lenses with a new mount expected on the Canon FF mirrorless.
Not "adapter trouble". Most likely "Lens limitation trouble" with regards to "Live View / mirrorless / DPAF focusing".

Although Jony has not specified yet, I think he is referring to the Non L EF 70-300 IS USM [1st gen]. And likely liveView / mirrorless AF performance is the main reason why the Mk. II of that lens got a Nano-USM AF drive.
I should have been more specific, sorry. Yes, it's the EF 70-300 IS USM Mark 1.

It would be interesting to see which if any of the current retail lenses have such issues. Maybe the older primes?
Curious. I have an old 70-300 as well as the current Nano USM version, and both work pretty well in live view on a 6D2. I mean, not like a 100-400LII, but certainly acceptable by my standards. Given sufficient light for f/5.6 (like a sunny day), it doesn't hunt at all.

Perhaps it is just the awesomeness that is the 6D2 8)
 

ethanz

1DX II
Apr 12, 2016
1,066
306
ethanzentz.com
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Talys said:
Curious. I have an old 70-300 as well as the current Nano USM version, and both work pretty well in live view on a 6D2. I mean, not like a 100-400LII, but certainly acceptable by my standards. Given sufficient light for f/5.6 (like a sunny day), it doesn't hunt at all.

Perhaps it is just the awesomeness that is the 6D2 8)
But, 6d2 crappy camera? ??? ::) ;D
 

Quirkz

EOS 80D
Oct 30, 2014
179
104
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

fullstop said:
main reason for STM lenses was silent operation for video use. But those linear stepper motors also seem to be able to handle signals from on-sensor PDAF better than (regular) USM lenses
Of course, yes, it’s obvious. The digital signal generated by the algorithms running on camera cpu to analyze the sensor data and control the movement of the lens motors must be very different between the two AF methods, because it’s impossible to make a sequence of 1s and 0s the same.

You do see how silly that sounds, right? :)
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
208
113
Calgary
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

Quirkz said:
fullstop said:
main reason for STM lenses was silent operation for video use. But those linear stepper motors also seem to be able to handle signals from on-sensor PDAF better than (regular) USM lenses
Of course, yes, it’s obvious. The digital signal generated by the algorithms running on camera cpu to analyze the sensor data and control the movement of the lens motors must be very different between the two AF methods, because it’s impossible to make a sequence of 1s and 0s the same.

You do see how silly that sounds, right? :)
Actually no.

A stepper motor is controlled very differently than other types of motors. A stepper motor has steps, hence the name. Each step is a fixed angle. For example a stepper motor with 365 steps would move precisely 1 degree for each step called and move forward or backward a precise amount based on the screw. So the difference between a stepper motor performance versus other types of motors is because the stepper motor is able to take different instructions.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,409
788
Re: A Bit More About the New Big White Lenses That Are Coming

nchoh said:
A stepper motor is controlled very differently than other types of motors. A stepper motor has steps, hence the name. Each step is a fixed angle. For example a stepper motor with 365 steps would move precisely 1 degree for each step called and move forward or backward a precise amount based on the screw. So the difference between a stepper motor performance versus other types of motors is because the stepper motor is able to take different instructions.
And how is it different from the AF protocol EOS camera uses with any other EF lens?