Canon Q2 2019 financial results released

PGSanta

EOS 80D
Sep 5, 2018
123
80
San Diego, CA
It shows that you are not really interested in the actual numbers.

Let's just follow the postings here, because I have no idea what you're trying to express.

I stated: "Canon is gaining market share by one metric, and one alone: total unit sales." <--- The report showing this is widely available on the net, go get it yourself.

You reply: "So, you didn't notice that Canon's camera unit sales are dropping much faster than Canon's camera revenues?" <--- Has 0 relation to what I stated.

I respond: "How does this relate to what I stated?" <--- Because I'm genuinely curious how you'd like to tie this in.

You come back with: "It shows that you are not really interested in the actual numbers." <--- ???

I... I literally have no idea how you believe logical conversation flows, so.... yeah... I'm not going to try.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,327
1,681
I stated: "Canon is gaining market share by one metric, and one alone: total unit sales."
Your obvious implication is that unit sales are a suboptimal measure of market share based on your ‘one and one alone’ phrasing and the generally trollish nature of your posting history).

Unit sales is the metric in which all major ILC manufacturers except one (Sony) report their market share. So your statement is like stating, "The country’s economy is growing by one metric, and one alone: GDP.”

Sure, it’s one measure...the most important and relevant one. Unless, of course, you’re trying to obfuscate the data to make yourself look better.
 

PGSanta

EOS 80D
Sep 5, 2018
123
80
San Diego, CA
Your obvious implication is that unit sales are a suboptimal measure of market share based on your ‘one and one alone’ phrasing and the generally trollish nature of your posting history).
Trollish because I complain about Canon? We could look at your posting history and point out all the childish insults you throw about, and just as easily make the case you're a troll of a different color. How about we just stick with what's in the thread.

I did express the notion that in a shrinking market unit sales are of secondary importance to revenue... would you like to dispute that? Since, apparently you've got an MBA (from somewhere other than a crackerjack box).

Sure, it’s one measure...the most important and relevant one. Unless, of course, you’re trying to obfuscate the data to make yourself look better.
It's really not, which is how I know you don't have any MBA... unless YOU'RE into crackerjack.
 
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Jul 12, 2013
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A rather brand-neutral view of reality in the camera space:


There are more than a couple of nuggets in the link, nuggets that should give pause to even the trolls of a different color.

But as I tried to explain in my last post in this thread—some of the brightest pre-med students sometimes have extreme difficulty admitting that they are occasionally wrong...to say that they obfuscate and troll...is being kind (to trolls!).
 
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AlanF

Everyone sits in the prison of his own ideas. A E
Aug 16, 2012
5,228
2,234
As the ACS (American Chemical Society) bumper sticker stated (way back in the 1980s)--'It takes alkynes to make a chemist' (spoiler: alkynes= all kinds).

And it takes alkynes to make an interesting forum/bulletin board--I love checking in here daily.

I wonder how one of our most prodigious posters here would have responded while, in all likelihood doing 'A' work on one of my second semester organic chemistry exams, nevertheless did not answer every question on every exam...correctly.

For nearly all students, I don the professor's hat when they bring their queries about missed questions to office hour. These students and I enjoy the interactions that resulted, though...and we all benefit from the discussions that ensue.

For just a very small number, though, three decades of teaching orgo has taught me that some of the brightest students never EVER thought they were wrong. They worked hard and generally received 100% scores on their exams...in math, bio, chem and physics classes.

Except in my second-term organic class.;) Thankfully chairs and deans understand (I think!).

=====

There is no question that Canon is the most successful manufacturer in the 'camera space'.

There is also no question that Canon has fallen behind in certain segments of the marketplace.

And there is also no question that Canon is now trying furiously to do what they do well (be a 'fast follower').

Before turning to the academic world, I was an employee at General Electric's R&D Center (think Thomas Edison).

GE's management at that time talked out loud about being 'fast followers'. They boasted about it--and said (again, out loud) that they did not need to innovate.

Have you seen GE's stock price lately? Hell forget about valuation...today some believe that the future of the company as we know it is in doubt.

I hope Canon succeeds--my family and I have invested thousands in the brand!

And I think they will.

But it is not a certainty.
Unfortunately, there are even some professors of chemistry who will never admit they are wrong - I am not taking a jibe at you, but, quite the opposite, extending your observations. Science has its cheats, now highlighted regularly in Retraction Watch https://retractionwatch.com/
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,327
1,681
But as I tried to explain in my last post in this thread—some of the brightest pre-med students sometimes have extreme difficulty admitting that they are occasionally wrong...to say that they obfuscate and troll...is being kind (to trolls!).
The phenotype seems to become enhanced once they reach medical school. ;) In spite of that, I do miss teaching.
 

Woody

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
1,136
39
In addition, in May, the A7III's marketshare was more than 40%+ which was more than both the R/RP combined by a large margin. Further in July, Sony is now shown to be at 30% overall MILC marketshare in Japan compared to Canon's 31%. The A7III was still in the top 10 BCN list which is more than 3x the cost of its entry level peers.
Curious where you got these numbers from. BCN most recent monthly data is only up to May 2019.

According to BCN's weekly data, A7III is no longer in BCN top 10 list. Nowhere close:
A7III is at 22 and 23 (previously 13 and 19). However, it is true the A7III is the bestselling FF ILC camera in the Japanese market.

It is not difficult to beat the A7III though. Canon just has to release some cheap and lightweight FF MILC lenses... something very lacking in Canon's current RF lens lineup.

Perhaps Canon could have gotten away with it in the past, but as that entry level market shrinks.. , who the heck else would they cater to? I think if Canon eventually wipes the floor with Sony, it will most certainly be on the merits of them upping their game, matching their spec sheets and performance rather than play this endless cycle of disappointment interspersed with "well.. we gained market share!" game.
That is my point. Ultimately, Canon will dominate again 'cos they have demonstrated this ability over and over again through the history of cameras.
 

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
A rather brand-neutral view of reality in the camera space:


There are more than a couple of nuggets in the link, nuggets that should give pause to even the trolls of a different color.

But as I tried to explain in my last post in this thread—some of the brightest pre-med students sometimes have extreme difficulty admitting that they are occasionally wrong...to say that they obfuscate and troll...is being kind (to trolls!).
Interesting. I did not realize that the Fuji Instax was categorized as a digital camera. That makes the collapse of the traditional digital point and shoot market even worse than I thought.

After some really good years, it sounds as though the interchangeable lens camera market is likely to return to what it was like in the pre-digital days, with enthusiasts and professionals dominating the market. Except that the professional market today is only a fraction of what it once was.

As I read the industry news on this site, it appears that most camera manufacturers are still making a profit, just not nearly the profit they once made or even what they projected to make. As long as companies like Canon, Nikon and Sony can continue to earn a profit on photography equipment, I doubt they will abandon the market. But, I expect we may see less money available for research and development and longer refresh cycles. This was probably inevitable anyway, as digital technology matures.

A big unknown is the aging out of the enthusiast market and whether or not older buyers will be replaced by a younger generation. If this site is in any way typical of the enthusiast market, it's pretty clear that it skews much older than the general population. Despite all the debate on this site revolving around full frame cameras, it is likely that the future viability of camera manufacturers is more closely tied to the success of APS-C and higher-end non-interchangeable lens bodies.
 

sfeinsmith

I'm New Here
Aug 23, 2016
20
8
Actually, their unit sales are staying more or less constant, unlike most other camera companies. It is their revenue that is dropping like a rock. Most other companies are losing revenue as well, the only company with a big increase in revenue is Sony (even though they sold fewer units over 2018).

You have not to realizeiI have been a professional photographer sincere 1960. I tend to buy my equipment from neither Adorama or BH. Canon made a huge mistake in the market to abandon 5D series for mirrorless. Since they released R series have many issues. The same incident with Nikon. I fed up and purchased used 5DS R to continue my work. Many people fed up with problems from R cameras and RF lenses stopped working.
 

jayphotoworks

EOS 80D
Aug 11, 2016
182
48
Curious where you got these numbers from. BCN most recent monthly data is only up to May 2019.

According to BCN's weekly data, A7III is no longer in BCN top 10 list. Nowhere close:
A7III is at 22 and 23 (previously 13 and 19). However, it is true the A7III is the bestselling FF ILC camera in the Japanese market.

It is not difficult to beat the A7III though. Canon just has to release some cheap and lightweight FF MILC lenses... something very lacking in Canon's current RF lens lineup.



That is my point. Ultimately, Canon will dominate again 'cos they have demonstrated this ability over and over again through the history of cameras.
This was the report in May 2019 showing the trends of FF MILC between the A7II, A7III, R, RP and Z6:


This BCN report shows the performance for almost the entire month of June 2019, and not just the weekly results as you have referenced:

 
Aug 1, 2017
324
189
This is my own quick guess as to what may happen to the Canon camera timeline over the next year or two

View attachment 185819

I suspect it'll be very different by 2023 when Digic 10 arrives ;-)
I think we'll still see a 5D Mark V at some point. Probably after the next round of R bodies is released and the mirrorless hype dies down a little. The 5D's are profitable, require very little develpment cost and are very popular with wedding and event shooters. Despite all of the mirrorless hysteria the 5D Mark IV sells well and remains one of the world's best general purpose camera's. Canon isn't going to be able to keep marketing the 5D Mark IV indefinitely and I can't see them walking away from a market that's been so profitable. Wedding photographers are among Canon's most loyal and profitable customers and 5 years from now plenty of them will still be using DSLR's.

Given the direction that EOS R lens development is taking, I'd say Canon is targeting wedding pro's with it's new R platform but I think there will still be a substantial market for a high end DSLR for at least the next several years.
 

12Broncos

I'm New Here
Jul 20, 2019
18
27
Interesting. I did not realize that the Fuji Instax was categorized as a digital camera. That makes the collapse of the traditional digital point and shoot market even worse than I thought.

After some really good years, it sounds as though the interchangeable lens camera market is likely to return to what it was like in the pre-digital days, with enthusiasts and professionals dominating the market. Except that the professional market today is only a fraction of what it once was.

As I read the industry news on this site, it appears that most camera manufacturers are still making a profit, just not nearly the profit they once made or even what they projected to make. As long as companies like Canon, Nikon and Sony can continue to earn a profit on photography equipment, I doubt they will abandon the market. But, I expect we may see less money available for research and development and longer refresh cycles. This was probably inevitable anyway, as digital technology matures.

A big unknown is the aging out of the enthusiast market and whether or not older buyers will be replaced by a younger generation. If this site is in any way typical of the enthusiast market, it's pretty clear that it skews much older than the general population. Despite all the debate on this site revolving around full frame cameras, it is likely that the future viability of camera manufacturers is more closely tied to the success of APS-C and higher-end non-interchangeable lens bodies.
This -------> "...we will foster trust in our products." The statement refers to professionals. I am not one of those. However, this is why I like Canon. I trust their products. In my opinion, Canon fosters trust at all levels.

From products that are dependable and reliable, to their service when things go wrong. I trust Canon. Canon gets my $.
I agree and I understand people who have invested money in DSLR's, I had one DSLR Camera and one lens, it was easy for me to jump to Mirrorless, I just sold my camera/ lens. I'm patiently waiting for a Pro/Prosumer Mirrorless offering from Canon. I can hold out as long as it takes, this is why Canon sales have slowed. (people are waiting) Why spend money on an outgoing dinosaur 'DSLR'? Perhaps Canon should come up with a way to honor the DSLR faithful and come up with a plan to get them to switch to mirrorless. It makes sense to have one system and polish that system with quality glass/cameras, so that system flourishes. What's the sense in babying a dying breed? That would take some money and some innovation, but doesn't the saying ring true, "It takes money to make money."
 

unfocused

EOS 5D SR
...Perhaps Canon should come up with a way to honor the DSLR faithful and come up with a plan to get them to switch to mirrorless. It makes sense to have one system and polish that system with quality glass/cameras, so that system flourishes. What's the sense in babying a dying breed? ...
It's premature to say that DSLRs are a dying breed and that mirrorless is the future. That may be the case, but one cannot confidently predict that today. Or, at least, it would be foolish to do so. And, for a company, it would be incredibly risky. It is entirely possible that DSLRs will continue well into the future, with both formats living side by side, just as APS-C and Full Frame currently do. Sony had nothing to lose, so they went all-in on mirrorless. But Nikon and Canon are in a much different situation. Technology may advance to the point where mirrorless can seamlessly replace DSLRs, but we aren't there yet and we probably won't be there for some years, if ever.

In the meantime, neither Canon nor Nikon seem to be having any problem at all maintaining and improving on both formats, Canon, in particular, seems to be doing a fine job today of "polishing" the R system "with quality glass/cameras" -- more lenses are on the way, the entire EF lens system works seamlessly with the R and, if the rumors are to be believed, there are at least a couple of new R bodies in the works.
 

Woody

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
1,136
39
This was the report in May 2019 showing the trends of FF MILC between the A7II, A7III, R, RP and Z6:
This BCN report shows the performance for almost the entire month of June 2019, and not just the weekly results as you have referenced:
You got all the reports mixed up. One reports FF MILC market alone and another MILC market alone. The BCNRetail data that I am interested in covers ALL ILC (both DSLRs and MILCs). Sony is the first to commit to FF MILCs, several years ahead of the rest, so it's not a surprise they have the lion's share of the market now.
 

Woody

EOS 6D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
1,136
39
Canon sold 1.93 million interchangeable lens cameras from Jan-Jun 2019. Now waiting for CIPA numbers to get an estimate of Canon's market share.
According to CIPA, number of cameras shipped for Jan-Jun 2019 period is 3.93 million. So, Canon managed to maintain their market share of ~ 49% (at least).