DPReview: Canon EOS R vs Nikon Z 6 vs Sony a7 III, which is best?

neuroanatomist

Spends Too Much Time on This Forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,509
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I already addressed those concerns by listening to the opinions of members here. I thanked them for helping me understand and accept the transition from EF to mirrorless. As you say, that was back in the summer, yet you cling to it?

I think we are looking at a dozen posts I made as opposed to 300 or 400 of yours pounding the same theme over and over, "Canon is the leader. That is the fact. Your opinions don't count and aren't interesting." To the point of making thread after thread tiresome.

Oh, for the days when you gave such enlightened, concise technical support in a friendly way.

Enjoy your grape juice!
Yes, and it only took starting 7-8 new threads (or was it as few as 6?) for you to reach that state of enlightened nirvana and gratitude. That suggests a deeply rooted insecurity, or possibly some other neurosis. Or that the opinions you claim were helpful were actually not so much.

Canon is the ILC market leader, and that is a fact. It is also a logical and relevant response to claims that Canon must do X or Y or add feature Z to be competitive, and statements of similar ilk. It's interesting that repeated claims and opinions based on misinformation or outright falsehoods don't seem to bother you, but you find a logical, factual response to those claims tiresome. On the other hand, I'm glad that you seem to accept reality for what it is...otherwise, you'd be crossing from neurosis into psychosis, which would be quite unfortunate.

I do certainly continue to happily offer technical help when it's requested. But in fact, those requests have become few and far between. Perhaps the new account signup process is onerous enough to be a barrier to people with questions signing up to ask them (and I recall for a while that new members could not immediately start a topic, which was a further barrier; not sure if that's still the case). Or perhaps google and youtube are doing better at providing quick solutions.

Regardless, I do plan to enjoy my grape juice (in fact, I'm enjoying some of the non-bubbly variety now) – as long as the grapes are of good quality and the juice is appropriately fermented and aged, it's a wonderful beverage.
 
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YuengLinger

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 20, 2012
2,185
176
Southeastern USA
Yes, and it only took starting 7-8 new threads (or was it as few as 6?) for you to reach that state of enlightened nirvana and gratitude. That suggests a deeply rooted insecurity, or possibly some other neurosis. Or that the opinions you claim were helpful were actually not so much.

Canon is the ILC market leader, and that is a fact. It is also a logical and relevant response to claims that Canon must do X or Y or add feature Z to be competitive, and statements of similar ilk. It's interesting that repeated claims and opinions based on misinformation or outright falsehoods don't seem to bother you, but you find a logical, factual response to those claims tiresome. On the other hand, I'm glad that you seem to accept reality for what it is...otherwise, you'd be crossing from neurosis into psychosis, which would be quite unfortunate.

I do certainly continue to happily offer technical help when it's requested. But in fact, those requests have become few and far between. Perhaps the new account signup process is onerous enough to be a barrier to people with questions signing up to ask them (and I recall for a while that new members could not immediately start a topic, which was a further barrier; not sure if that's still the case). Or perhaps google and youtube are doing better at providing quick solutions.

Regardless, I do plan to enjoy my grape juice (in fact, I'm enjoying some of the non-bubbly variety now) – as long as the grapes are of good quality and the juice is appropriately fermented and aged, it's a wonderful beverage.
What I find tiresome is having threads dominated by cynical, repetitive attempts to stifle discussion, whether it is the future of legacy EF, wished-for features, or gripes. No brainstorming allowed. In what appears to be a crusade of 50-60 similar posts or more a month, you just keep repeating that Canon is the ILC market leader. Apparently any post that doesn't acknowledge this must be dealt with. Over and over and over.

You see a post that deviates from your standards, STOMP. Squash it! Eliminate!

Reminds me of Nomad in the original series of Star Trek (Episode: "The Changeling.") "Eradicate biological infestations! Illogical! Non sequitir! Error! Error! Errrooorrrr!"

No wonder fewer people come here for help, according to you. Why would they? They are afraid if they step out of line, stick their necks out with an opinion, here comes the Canon crusaders to belittle them or tell them to buy another brand.

Thanks for your armchair diagnosis of my mental issues. Now, physician, heal thyself.
 
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Oct 26, 2013
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What I find tiresome is having threads dominated by cynical, repetitive attempts to stifle discussion, whether it is the future of legacy EF, wished-for features, or gripes. No brainstorming allowed. In what appears to be a crusade of 50-60 similar posts or more a month, you just keep repeating that Canon is the ILC market leader. Apparently any post that doesn't acknowledge this must be dealt with. Over and over and over.

You see a post that deviates from your standards, STOMP. Squash it! Eliminate!

Reminds me of Nomad in the original series of STAR TREK. "Eradicate biological infestations! Illogical! Non sequitir! Error! Error! Errrooorrrr!"

No wonder fewer people come here for help, according to you. Why would they? They are afraid if they step out of line, stick their necks out with an opinion, here comes the Canon crusaders to belittle them or tell them to buy another brand.

Thanks for your armchair diagnosis of my mental issues. Now, physician, heal thyself.

Some of us are quite glad that Neuro is around to try and combat the trolls and the ignorant and the members who constantly ignore any sort of factual information in order to endlessly promote their particular agenda. If you consider endless bitching and moaning to be "brainstorming," well, that is unfortunate. If people don't stand up to the trolls and try and spread some actual, factual information, well, then the forum disintegrates into nothing but endless bullsh!t and people just making up stuff in support of their arguments. I would say in the number of years that I have been on the forum, it has already reached that point. Again, if that's the forum you like, I guess that is your prerogative. The admins clearly like it this way, as the clicks get generated every time sometime makes some absurd claim or outright lie.

"But this is a rumor forum!" some will argue. Yes, but the rumors are still intended to predict the truth of what might happen. So, honesty and integrity should still be expected. Or has the world gotten to the point where those things just don't matter anymore?
 

neuroanatomist

Spends Too Much Time on This Forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,509
543
What I find tiresome is having threads dominated by cynical, repetitive attempts to stifle discussion, whether it is the future of legacy EF, wished-for features, or gripes. No brainstorming allowed. In what appears to be a crusade of 50-60 similar posts or more a month, you just keep repeating that Canon is the ILC market leader. Apparently any post that doesn't acknowledge this must be dealt with. Over and over and over.

You see a post that deviates from your standards, STOMP. Squash it! Eliminate!

Reminds me of Nomad in the original series of STAR TREK. "Eradicate biological infestations! Illogical! Non sequitir! Error! Error! Errrooorrrr!"

No wonder fewer people come here for help, according to you. Why would they? They are afraid if they step out of line, stick their necks out with an opinion, here comes the Canon crusaders to belittle them or tell them to buy another brand.

Thanks for your armchair diagnosis of my mental issues. Now, physician, heal thyself.
Lol. Stifle discussion? Not that that has ever been even remotely my intent, but if it was, obviously I've utterly failed.

Brainstorming and discussion are good. Opinions and claims based on lies are not good. I'm sorry you feel that a factual response to those claims is tiresome and overbearing, but really, that's your issue to deal with...or not. You could have chosen to ignore it and move on, but instead you did choose to insult me. Sad.
 

YuengLinger

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 20, 2012
2,185
176
Southeastern USA
Some of us are quite glad that Neuro is around to try and combat the trolls and the ignorant and the members who constantly ignore any sort of factual information in order to endlessly promote their particular agenda. If you consider endless bitching and moaning to be "brainstorming," well, that is unfortunate. If people don't stand up to the trolls and try and spread some actual, factual information, well, then the forum disintegrates into nothing but endless bullsh!t and people just making up stuff in support of their arguments. I would say in the number of years that I have been on the forum, it has already reached that point. Again, if that's the forum you like, I guess that is your prerogative. The admins clearly like it this way, as the clicks get generated every time sometime makes some absurd claim or outright lie.

"But this is a rumor forum!" some will argue. Yes, but the rumors are still intended to predict the truth of what might happen. So, honesty and integrity should still be expected. Or has the world gotten to the point where those things just don't matter anymore?
So is DPR part of a disinformation campaign against Canon?

Is anybody allowed to question Canon's products without being accused of ignorance and trolling? Lately it doesn't seem so here. The "cop on the beat" overreacts, the peaceful citizens shy away, and then we are surprised when few remain but hooligans?

Keeping it real needs to be balanced with keeping it open to legitimate debate.
 
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So is DPR part of a disinformation campaign against Canon?

Is anybody allowed to question Canon's products without being accused of ignorance and trolling? Lately it doesn't seem so here. The "cop on the beat" overreacts, the peaceful citizens shy away, and then we are surprised when few remain but hooligans?

Keeping it real needs to be balanced with keeping it open to legitimate debate.
I go away for a few days and I come back and it looks like the scolding has continued!

I enjoy reading DPR and I don't feel they are waging a disinformation campaign against Canon. Recently, they've highlighted certain shortcomings of Canon products and they seem to be increasingly critical of their products and decisions based on the benchmarks they use. They also command a large readership or market share so to speak. So when someone comes in and writes off DPR as a legitimate site, they can have their opinions, but don't expect many to be convinced.
 
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Aug 16, 2012
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I go away for a few days and I come back and it looks like the scolding has continued!

I enjoy reading DPR and I don't feel they are waging a disinformation campaign against Canon. Recently, they've highlighted certain shortcomings of Canon products and they seem to be increasingly critical of their products and decisions based on the benchmarks they use. They also command a large readership or market share so to speak. So when someone comes in and writes off DPR as a legitimate site, they can have their opinions, but don't expect many to be convinced.
DPR is the home of the trolls. The Comments at the end of articles have a very high proportion by particularly nasty individuals attacking and defending all brands. They make our one or two awkward individuals look benign.
 

YuengLinger

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 20, 2012
2,185
176
Southeastern USA
DPR is the home of the trolls. The Comments at the end of articles have a very high proportion by particularly nasty individuals attacking and defending all brands. They make our one or two awkward individuals look benign.
I don't remember having read the comments after reviews much on DPR. I either read the reviews themselves, or occasionally land on the comments section after a Google search for a technical point. The tech advice is hit or miss there, but that's true on any forum as wide open as DPR, I think.

I've been sticking with CR for so long that I forgot why. It has been more civil here, and informative. I know that is in part because members act that way, and also because moderators enforce standards.

Neuro is a big part of CR. It is no fun clashing horns with him, and it does little to advance any thread. Reminding people to be honest and use facts when discussing technical points and sales statistics can help make the forum more informative, surely, but when opinions about features, decisions, or future moves are effectively prohibited by self-appointed forum police (unless the opinions are praising Canon, the largest seller of ILC cameras year after year), people who might contribute insights worth discussing stay away. And then we get a higher concentration of posters who do enjoy the sport of annoying others.

Brainstorming and discussion are good. Opinions and claims based on lies are not good. I'm sorry you feel that a factual response to those claims is tiresome and overbearing, but really, that's your issue to deal with...or not. You could have chosen to ignore it and move on, but instead you did choose to insult me. Sad.
Neuro, you have a point. You have called me "chicken little," "hysterical," and "neurotic." I've said that your scolding posts remind me of Nomad from ST:OS. Clearly, I should tone it down. :D

While dak723 makes the point that we do need members who step in to ask others to be truthful and logical, I'd suggest that constantly engaging with those who use over the top language and make wild claims in order to get a reaction causes more of the same teasing behavior--and an escalation of the taunting. Sometimes we can just take silly assertions with a grain of salt or ignore them.

For better or worse, DPR and others are widely read and viewed. Many reviewers have panned Canon features over the years, and the EOS R is getting hammered by some pretty fair criticisms for user-interface and the same 4k crop factor that was criticized in the 5D IV three years ago. So when somebody lands on CR after reading negative stuff, and then sees CR members blasting the messengers (think DPR and many others in disfavor here), they wonder what kind of parallel universe they've entered.

My point is not to defend DPR or Jared Polin or Tony Northrup or Arthur Morris or DxO or whoever else is criticizing Canon. I'm asking posters who reflexively declare that review sites are anti-Canon to think about how close-minded they sound, almost paranoid sometimes. As if there is this vast conspiracy of anti-Canon media out there threatening our honor.

Debating the criticisms is more interesting and effective than simply bashing the messengers.

And also think about how new members react to being told they are ignorant, they should buy another brand, they don't need a feature, they must be weak photographers if they need more DR, etc.

That's it!
 
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I go away for a few days and I come back and it looks like the scolding has continued!

I enjoy reading DPR and I don't feel they are waging a disinformation campaign against Canon. Recently, they've highlighted certain shortcomings of Canon products and they seem to be increasingly critical of their products and decisions based on the benchmarks they use. They also command a large readership or market share so to speak. So when someone comes in and writes off DPR as a legitimate site, they can have their opinions, but don't expect many to be convinced.
I think the big problem with DPR reviews is that they discard as unimportant the things that canon win at or if they can't discard them completely the twist them in such a way as to come up with a biased answer. Saying sony wins out on lenses because of its native mirrorless selection completely ignores the fact that canons ef lenses work 'as native' and even have more functionality in some ways than 'native lenses'. That automatically puts into question their conclusions . Overall the sony is probably the more 'complete' body but certainly not by much
 
Aug 16, 2012
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Silly comments that misinform have to be contested and corrected. There is a wide diversity logging in, some of whom are beginners and wish to learn. There is no such thing as a dumb question but there are dumb answers and statements, and those who know the comments are dumb have an obligation to point them out to stop the spread of misinformation. People are entitled to opinions but not necessarily to spout them unchallenged if those opinions run contrary to evidence and the laws of science (or are illegal).
 

scyrene

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 4, 2013
2,318
158
UK
www.flickr.com
So is DPR part of a disinformation campaign against Canon?

Is anybody allowed to question Canon's products without being accused of ignorance and trolling? Lately it doesn't seem so here. The "cop on the beat" overreacts, the peaceful citizens shy away, and then we are surprised when few remain but hooligans?

Keeping it real needs to be balanced with keeping it open to legitimate debate.
I think your intentions are good, but it baffles me this is the take you have on the nature of discussion on the CR forums. I've been here a while, and observe a usual pattern: one or two notable contrarians post hyperbolic criticism of Canon, with a lot of newly-created accounts agreeing with them (their motives varying from stirring the pot, to being peeved at not getting what they want, and in some cases blatant sockpuppets of the aforementioned), then a handful of stalwarts here counter that by pointing out a few truths. You consider that the squashing of discussion? It hasn't stopped the silliness of AvTvM and his aliases, for instance. Yes Neuro is repetitive - because the vast majority of what he is rebutting is repetitive. "Canon MUST do X" where X is whatever the poster wants - that is satisfactorily countered by "no they don't, they're doing fine without offering this feature". You may not like it but that doesn't falsify it. Some of this stuff gets unnecessarily personal on both sides - but calling a troll a troll is not an insult, nor is pointing out ignorance.

As I say, I don't think you are one of those, you mean well, but your take on this is pretty distorted. I hardly ever see people being told their wants are wrong - I see them being told the lack of their wants is manifestly immaterial to Canon's current strategy (and indeed to their financial success).

As for DPR, their biases are well understood, whatever the motivations may be. I've stated here before I don't think they are necessarily anti-Canon, they just have certain editorial agendas that set them against Canon's approach and offerings. A lot of this is merely differing opinions, so one ought not get too upset by it, either way.
 

YuengLinger

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 20, 2012
2,185
176
Southeastern USA
As I say, I don't think you are one of those, you mean well, but your take on this is pretty distorted. I hardly ever see people being told their wants are wrong - I see them being told the lack of their wants is manifestly immaterial to Canon's current strategy (and indeed to their financial success).
Perhaps I've been filtering differently, but the past year I've read here much more of, "If you want that feature, go buy brand X." Or, "You mean you can't take good pictures with a 5D III or 5D IV?" And so forth. Maybe it's troll-fighting fatigue?
 
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Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,521
633
Canada
I find that threads with titles like “which one is better” are doomed to rancour. No way are we going to get agreement because we have different needs. What is indispensable for one person may be an annoyance to the next. I think that we should all dial it down a bit and avoid using inflammatory language or phrases.

Most of us have a balanced view, including those accused of being fanboys and of being trolls. Yes, Canon is a conservative company and moves slow, but from that we get stability..... that is the trade off. Yes, they have come out wth some brilliant innovations, but they have also made some stupid moves.... you can’t have one without the other! Everything is balance and trade-offs.

Most of us shoot Canon because the overall mix of camera/lens/accessories does what we want at the price we can afford. We will never see the perfect camera from any manufacturer because it does not, and will not, ever exist.... That is why many of us have multiple cameras from multiple manufacturers. So, in the meantime, we shoot with what we have, wish for more, and create great images and have fun on the way.
 
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neuroanatomist

Spends Too Much Time on This Forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,509
543
So is DPR part of a disinformation campaign against Canon?

Is anybody allowed to question Canon's products without being accused of ignorance and trolling? Lately it doesn't seem so here. The "cop on the beat" overreacts, the peaceful citizens shy away, and then we are surprised when few remain but hooligans?

Keeping it real needs to be balanced with keeping it open to legitimate debate.
DPR has been biased against Canon. Their criticism of AF performance when they failed to follow manufacturer's recommendations is one example, the 5DSR comparison where the Canon images were shot at least 30 minutes later into twilight then bashed for noise is another. They may still be biased, but I generally don't read their reviews anymore.

Your position is becoming clear. You believe it's ok to question Canon (and I agree). You believe open debate is good (and I also agree). You believe that responding to criticism of Canon with facts and logic based on those facts is an overreaction intended to quash discussion. That makes your desire for balance seem disingenuous at best.

Do you believe that lies and deliberate misinformation are appropriate contributions to 'legitimate debate'? Or that facts and truth are an inappropriate response to such posts? I would hope not, but your attitude suggests otherwise.
 

YuengLinger

EOS 6D MK II
Dec 20, 2012
2,185
176
Southeastern USA
DPR has been biased against Canon. Their criticism of AF performance when they failed to follow manufacturer's recommendations is one example, the 5DSR comparison where the Canon images were shot at least 30 minutes later into twilight then bashed for noise is another. They may still be biased, but I generally don't read their reviews anymore.

Your position is becoming clear. You believe it's ok to question Canon (and I agree). You believe open debate is good (and I also agree). You believe that responding to criticism of Canon with facts and logic based on those facts is an overreaction intended to quash discussion. That makes your desire for balance seem disingenuous at best.

Do you believe that lies and deliberate misinformation are appropriate contributions to 'legitimate debate'? Or that facts and truth are an inappropriate response to such posts? I would hope not, but your attitude suggests otherwise.
We have found common ground.
 

neuroanatomist

Spends Too Much Time on This Forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,509
543
Reminding people to be honest and use facts when discussing technical points and sales statistics can help make the forum more informative, surely, but when opinions about features, decisions, or future moves are effectively prohibited by self-appointed forum police (unless the opinions are praising Canon, the largest seller of ILC cameras year after year), people who might contribute insights worth discussing stay away.
Effectively prohibited? First off, only the mods can effectively prohibit someone from posting (and even that's not very effective, as the many incarnations of AvTvM, Mikael, etc.).

Opinions about features, decisions, or future moves are perfectly fine. Saying, for example, "I wish Canon offered feature X," can lead to a productive and interesting discussion. But saying, "Canon needs to offer feature Y to be competitive," is an assertion that is contradicted by established fact...and I'll continue to point that out, unapologetically.


My point is not to defend DPR or Jared Polin or Tony Northrup or Arthur Morris or DxO or whoever else is criticizing Canon. I'm asking posters who reflexively declare that review sites are anti-Canon to think about how close-minded they sound, almost paranoid sometimes. As if there is this vast conspiracy of anti-Canon media out there threatening our honor.
I have claimed that DPR is biased against Canon, and given examples to support that claim. I have also claimed Northrup is biased, not against Canon but rather toward whatever is new – and that makes sense because new models sell, and his income is click-driven (I've also claimed he lacks technical competence, again with supporting examples). I've not said anything about Polin at all. I've said Morris is also click revenue-motivated, which again is perfectly reasonable.

I have claimed DxO is biased, not against Canon per se, but rather that their Scores are biased in a way that negatively impacts Canon. They have an internal logic for their scores (e.g., base ISO is important, high ISO performance is not). They believe that dynamic range is a factor in lens scores, which makes no sense but pulls down Canon lens scores. I have also bashed them for claiming to perform 'image science' but not revealing their scoring algorithms, which is directly contrary to established scientific practice.

If that sounds to you like a reflexive declaration that review sites are anti-Canon, perhaps it's you that is close-minded or almost paranoid.

Debating the criticisms is more interesting and effective than simply bashing the messengers.
I still fail to see how a factual, logical reply comprises 'bashing the messenger'.


Neuro, you have a point. You have called me "chicken little," "hysterical," and "neurotic." I've said that your scolding posts remind me of Nomad from ST:OS. Clearly, I should tone it down.
Perhaps instead, you should consider trying to not be the one to cast the first stone. I'm not opposed to answering personal insults with the same, but if you look back you'll be hard-pressed to find threads where I instigated the insults.
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,521
633
Canada
My problem with DXO is about how insane it is to try to reduce a lens rating down to a single number, particulatly when it is done according to some "magic" algorithm. None of us knows exactly how they create that magic number, but it does involve three baffling components.

The first component is the number of megapixels that the camera it was tested on has. Does this mean that if I swap out a 5D2 for a 5Ds r that all of a sudden my lenses will magically become better? Of course not!

Second, what happens when I move that lens from a FF camera to a crop camera? Does it suddenly become a terrible lens? of course not!

The third thing that really bugs me is that the aperture of the lens figures VERY prominently is the lens rating. This leads us to the unlikely situation where the "nifty fifty", Canon's lowest cost lens, has a higher score than the 600F4, Canon's most expensive lens. In a world where we have fixed lenses from 10 to 800mm, multiple zooms covering small parts of the range and others covering large parts of the range, fisheyes, macros, T/S, and who knows what else, how could anyone be so delusional as to think that ONE number could compare them all?

This is not just about Canon, it affects every manufacturer. If they had any sense, they would leave the magic rating number out.
 
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My problem with DXO is about how insane it is to try to reduce a lens rating down to a single number, particulatly when it is done according to some "magic" algorithm. None of us knows exactly how they create that magic number, but it does involve two baffling components.
It goes even deeper that that, too. Don’t forget the Curious Case of the 500 Teles, wherein the canon lens ties or bests the nikkor lens in all five “lens metric scores,” yet ties in the composite.

This level pegging was explained, as Dr. Brain notes above, by camera body dynamic range improving the composite score, despite dynamic range not being enumerated anywhere in the lens metrics. It was also noted that the same canon lens on the same canon body would have outscored the same nikkor lens on the same nikon body in lower light. Because DXO.
 

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Probably not, but when did you use a body in isolation? I always needed to use a lens with one and if you look at the body and lens system for a keen photographer the R wipes the floor with the other two. Who else makes a 50 f1.2, or a workhorse mid zoom at f2? Nobody. As a photographer I am far more interested in lenses than if ia body has ‘eye’ focus or ‘face’ focus.
IMHO, its wrong to judge a system by expensive lenses only a tiny fraction of photographers would buy.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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Second, what happens when I move that lens from a FF camera to a crop camera? Does it suddenly become a terrible lens? of course not!
It can in fact become a worse lens on crop! The smaller sensor has more lines pairs per mm and so you have to look at the higher level MTF values of the lens with the crop to get the equivalent for the FF. For example, the 30 lp/mm MTF for the crop is equivalent to the 20 lp/mm of the FF, and the 48 lp/mm MTF for the crop is the equivalent of the 30 lp/mm of the FF for the overall resolution of the sensor. So, a lens that has a very good value of the 10 lp/mm and OK 30 lp/mm but deteriorates rapidly with increasing lp/mm will be OK for FF but weak on crop. The high quality lenses like the 300mm f/2.8, 100-400mm II perform well on crop. My old 100-400mm Mk 1, a poor copy, was quite good on FF but rubbish on crop.