"Nikkei reports Canon's profit projections are twice as bad as it anticipated"

JonSnow

EOS 80D
Sep 10, 2018
148
100
great.. now canon manager will probably wake up.

hope it gets even worse until they stop crippling cameras and give us competitiv sensors.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
Mar 25, 2011
15,351
606
I thought that Canon had mentioned planning for a worst case 50% drop. They said it was unlikely, but they had to plan for it. The imaging industry has been hit very hard. If sales are very slow, inventories will be high and we'll see some big sales.
 
Aug 1, 2017
324
189
Who cares about earnings and profit? Quick, somebody show the Nikei a copy of Canon's totaly awesome ILC market share data! ;)

If Canon was an American company the short sellers would be crushing them. Fortunately for Canon the Japanese capital markets discourage that sort of thing.

So far it appears that all of the major players are still making a profit. You do have to wonder if Nikon can get though this patch without partnering up with somebody. It seems like there has to be consolidation. I don't see how the current market can't sustain so many players.
 
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unfocused

EOS 5D SR
More details: here.

Summary:
  • Worsening economic conditions in Europe have caused corporate clients to hold off on investments, softening sales of office equipment and other machinery. The depreciation of the euro against the yen also undercut profitability in exports.
  • A global market downturn for semiconductors used in data centers and smartphones. Semiconductor manufacturers have withheld capital spending on chipmaking equipment, one of Canon's products, and deliveries have been postponed.
  • The shrinking camera market continues to hurt Canon. Deliveries of digital cameras worldwide tumbled 24% on the year during the first five months of 2019, according to the Camera & Imaging Products Association, based in Tokyo. Sales of Canon's single-lens reflex camera, a high-margin product, have declined in China and elsewhere.
  • The company aims to expand revenue by rolling out new offerings such as additional lenses for the popular mirrorless cameras.
  • Medical devices, security cameras and two other new businesses are performing strongly, and are altogether anticipated to account for more than 25% of sales this year, up from 23% last year.
  • Canon has begun streamlining efforts, focused on its overseas camera and office equipment operations. These changes will start translating to improved profitability as early as next year. But the restructuring apparently will cost more than the 20 billion yen originally planned.
  • Canon's woes reflect the difficulties facing Japan's businesses amid the U.S.-China trade war and the slowing global economy.
[sarcasm] Oh wait...they apparently forgot to mention that it's all due to Canon not releasing the full frame camera that some forum experts think they should. [/sarcasm]
 

M_S

EOS 80D
Jul 31, 2013
156
9
It has nothing to do with the quality of their products though. It has to do with the contraction of the ILC market due to the rise of smartphones.
In parts. I guess it will be many factors, quality of the product is one of them.
Lets say it this way: There is a good chance that a product which is not fullfilling the customers needs (competition offers more features for less money, too expensive, not enough to buy the next thing because the current gear is doing well etc.) is not helping in that case. Otherwise it would sell. Either a company finds a way to get people to buy it, then everything is well and shiny, or it doesn't, then there will be losses in sales.
From a personal point of view: I haven't bought the R or RP, because I have a functioning 5dsr in my hands with 24-70 II and 70-200 II, plus some Milvus lenses. The ergonomics of the R and RP don't meet my needs, as I wish them more in the line with the 5dsr. I can't use the lenses for the new mirrorless bodies on my camera either. So, in total, I won't buy a R-camera body from Canon, as well as no R-lenses. For the moment they don't fullfill my needs and I am one factor in the sales loss for Canon. The offerings of the other companies are getting better and better and I still can use my EF-lenses on them, which is very tempting, as this is of greater value. So, for me, it has very much to do with the product and me spending money, which goes in the profit report.
 
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Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
371
364
In parts. I guess it will be many factors, quality of the product is one of them.
Lets say it this way: There is a good chance that a product which is not fullfilling the customers needs (competition offers more features for less money, too expensive, not enough to buy the next thing because the current gear is doing well etc.) is not helping in that case. Otherwise it would sell. Either a company finds a way to get people to buy it, then everything is well and shiny, or it doesn't, then there will be losses in sales.
Their products are selling. They have nearly half the ILC market. Sorry but the downturn of profit is due to the contraction of the market and other economic factors. Companies like sony or Olympus etc might make some inroads into small niches in the market but they have had no overall effect of canons market share. The share has remained the same. The market has contracted. Simple as that.
 

M_S

EOS 80D
Jul 31, 2013
156
9
Their products are selling. They have nearly half the ILC market. Sorry but the downturn of profit is due to the contraction of the market and other economic factors. Companies like sony or Olympus etc might make some inroads into small niches in the market but they have had no overall effect of canons market share. The share has remained the same. The market has contracted. Simple as that.
Question is why. And that's what I tried to explain. If there was a good combination of price+features+demand+unique selling points it would be a winner and the loss would be not that big.
If the main competitor is the smartphone market, as ist often said here and in the media, why not implement features of that device in a new and better product, a product that delivers better image quality by retaining the same functionality and user experience.
Epic fail in that regard: the newly released Alpha RIV, as it lacks touchscreen functionality...in 2019...
Where are the functionalities that incorporate the User experience of a smartphone in a 3500$ camera? Where are the apps, where the possibility of sharing things? Where is the instagram/Facebook/Twitter connection? Where is the computational part of it besides tracking?
 
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Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
371
364
Question is why. And that's what I tried to explain. If there was a good combination of price+features+demand+unique selling points it would be a winner and the loss would be not that big.
If the main competitor is the smartphone market, as ist often said here and in the media, why not implement features of that device in a new and better product, a product that delivers better image quality by retaining the same functionality and user experience.
Epic fail in that regard: the newly released Alpha RIV, as it lacks toughscreen functionaliyt...in 2019...
Because the majority of people that take photos are not into 'photography' as such. They just want to be able to take happy snaps and selfies. And if they can do it on the device that can do everything else in their daily lives then that is what they will choose. Especially when that device is tiny. Canon cannot make a real camera that small. Therefore the market for ILCs is reducing back to those who are interested in serious photography. No amount of gimmickry can change that.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,089
518
Lets say it this way: There is a good chance that a product which is not fullfilling the customers needs (competition offers more features for less money, too expensive, not enough to buy the next thing because the current gear is doing well etc.) is not helping in that case. Otherwise it would sell.
Yeah, but then you will need to sell them a camera in a phone.

Would it be a smart business decision profit-wise? I am not sure. Sony's phone business operates at a loss.

From a personal point of view: I haven't bought the R or RP, because I have a functioning 5dsr in my hands with 24-70 II and 70-200 II, plus some Milvus lenses. The ergonomics of the R and RP don't meet my needs, as I wish them more in the line with the 5dsr.
So, Canon is losing sales because it sold you a camera that still satisfies you?
 

M_S

EOS 80D
Jul 31, 2013
156
9
Yeah, but then you will need to sell them a camera in a phone.

Would it be a smart business decision profit-wise? I am not sure. Sony's phone business operates at a loss.


So, Canon is losing sales because it sold you a camera that still satisfies you?
First point: More the other way around, smartphone features in a camera.
Second point: I don't understand your answer?? The loss has been reported this year and the last year. I bought my stuff a few years back, so its not in this years report. If I would have bought new stuff from canon, I would have been one factor in that report. As it stands, I can't contribute to a profit for Canon at the moment. Anyhow, my argument is centering about why people might not be purchasing the products and what could be done to overcome this. Part of it is, that I, and perhaps othe customers, am not seeing the urge to upgrade, since the product one owns is enough and the new product is not that much better to justify a high investment yet again...as I thought I would have explained in detail.....
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,354
1,692
Question is why. And that's what I tried to explain. If there was a good combination of price+features+demand+unique selling points it would be a winner and the loss would be not that big.
Yes, no doubt that if they’d made buggy whips that were snappier and cart wheels that rolled faster, there would still be a big market for horse-drawn carriages.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,089
518
First point: More the other way around, smartphone features in a camera.
And how would you answer a call?

"My phone is too heavy, so I left it at home. Please leave a message after a beep..."

Second point: I don't understand your answer?? The loss has been reported this year and the last year. I bought my stuff a few years back, so its not in this years report. If I would have bought new stuff from canon, I would have been one factor in that report. As it stands, I can't contribute to a profit for Canon at the moment.
Indeed. Canon sold a mature product to you back then, so you don't feel the need to buy a new one now. Maybe if Canon were actually crippling their products back then, their sales now would have been higher?

Anyhow, my argument is centering about why people might not be purchasing the products and what could be done to overcome this. Part of it is, that I, and perhaps othe customers, am not seeing the urge to upgrade, since the product one owns is enough and the new product is not that much better to justify a high investment yet again...as I thought I would have explained in detail.....
When was the last time you bought a fridge or a dishwasher? Do you feel the urge to upgrade them right now, and if not, what fridge manufacturers need to do to sell you a new fridge every 2 years?
 

M_S

EOS 80D
Jul 31, 2013
156
9
And how would you answer a call?

"My phone is too heavy, so I left it at home. Please leave a message after a beep..."


Indeed. Canon sold a mature product to you back then, so you don't feel the need to buy a new one now. Maybe if Canon were actually crippling their products back then, their sales now would have been higher?


When was the last time you bought a fridge or a dishwasher? Do you feel the urge to upgrade them right now, and if not, what fridge manufacturers need to do to sell you a new fridge every 2 years?
1.) Smartphone features doesn't mean "the whole smartphone". I mean ....really. At least I don't want to take calls with my camera, perhaps your mileage may vary there...but that would be kind of dumb..
2.) Another way could be to improve or change the device in a way to make it stand out. Otherwise lets just go back to the good old Model T, that one is a car, drives and brings you from a to b. Why innovate. Lets just freeze technology and be done with it for the rest of mankind....
3.) A fridge, imo, is not a cosumer product like a smartphone or camera or electric car or ... Taking your analogy: smartphones would be more appropriate, or a computer, which technically a camera is anyhow or the new windows/IOS. If the camera of ones desire could be enhanced with firmware features, preferrably firmware over the air, or added features via shop, then there is no need for a new body every two years. Take for instance cars. Nowadays technology is running fast in drive technology, customer binding via added functionality. If you own a Porsche e.g (congrats then), then you could go into a workshop and buy stuff that can be flashed in the ECUs of the car, backlog and server would track that. Camera analogy: Fuji does it already, Canon only once in a year (C-Log), normally just bug fixes. Its another business model.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,089
518
1.) Smartphone features doesn't mean "the whole smartphone". I mean ....really.
Then "smartphone features" in a camera won't make a sale where "a camera in a phone" would suffice.

What Canon can do - and does - in its current generation of cameras is working seamlessly with your current phone (permanent connection via BLE, bringing up WiFi when a higher throughput is needed). Sony tries to catch up here, but it still does not ship WiFi-controlled cameras yet.

2.) Another way could be to improve or change the device in a way to make it stand out. Otherwise lets just go back to the good old Model T, that one is a car, drives and brings you from a to b. Why innovate. Lets just freeze technology and be done with it for the rest of mankind....
You may innovate as much as you want, but as long as my Subaru Forester that I bought new 8 years ago still serves me well, you are not going to sell your "innovation" to me.

3.) A fridge, imo, is not a cosumer product like a smartphone or camera or electric car or ...
Got it. A fridge is not "a consumer product" like something that is crippled by its battery.

Neither my 5D2 is, then.

Taking your analogy: smartphones would be more appropriate, or a computer, which technically a camera is anyhow or the new windows/IOS. If the camera of ones desire could be enhanced with firmware features, preferrably firmware over the air, or added features via shop, then there is no need for a new body every two years. Take for instance cars. Nowadays technology is running fast in drive technology, customer binding via added functionality. If you own a Porsche e.g (congrats then), then you could go into a workshop and buy stuff that can be flashed in the ECUs of the car, backlog and server would track that. Camera analogy: Fuji does it already, Canon only once in a year (C-Log), normally just bug fixes. Its another business model.
But if you introduce features with firmware updates, you lose sales opportunities. Should Canon not be doing it to increase sales?
 

koenkooi

EOS RP
Feb 25, 2015
346
197
Then "smartphone features" in a camera won't make a sale where "a camera in a phone" would suffice.
What I personally would like is an easier way or a way with less "friction" to go from "taking a picture" to "sharing it". See below.

What Canon can do - and does - in its current generation of cameras is working seamlessly with your current phone (permanent connection via BLE, bringing up WiFi when a higher throughput is needed). Sony tries to catch up here, but it still does not ship WiFi-controlled cameras yet.
It's not seamless. If you want to use your existing wifi, the app and camera don't always 'see' each other. Using the camera as access point works, but that requires switching wifi later on to actually post the images. The in-camera fuctions on my RP break down fast because I shoot raw only, it converts to jpeg automatically for some things, but not all.

The above complaints are software, which can be solved with updates, but there are also hardware issues. The M50 has a "wireless" button, which saves you from going into the menus. Press the button, press 'set' to select the first entry and it will connect to wifi and wait for your phone.

Most of the pictures I want to share go over iMessage, which won't be supported by the camera because of apple reasons, but a "post to instagram" option in playback would probably go a long way for that crowd. The new g7x supports live streaming to youtube, when will that land in the R series?
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,089
518
What I personally would like is an easier way or a way with less "friction" to go from "taking a picture" to "sharing it". See below.
CCAPI was a great move in the right direction, now let's see if Canon can also streamline and open its Bluetooth interface. Then a lot of things are possible to do in software outside the camera.

It's not seamless. If you want to use your existing wifi, the app and camera don't always 'see' each other. Using the camera as access point works, but that requires switching wifi later on to actually post the images.
Canon uses UPnP multicast for camera discovery. If your router filters it out, your app needs to know the camera's IP address in order to make a connection. Anyway, you better have a router under your control if you want to use external access points for a connection between your camera and your phone. Something like GL-MT300N-V2 may work wonders.

The in-camera fuctions on my RP break down fast because I shoot raw only, it converts to jpeg automatically for some things, but not all.
Again, using CCAPI, you should be able to upload the original RAWs to your phone (if it's enough for your purpose).

The above complaints are software, which can be solved with updates, but there are also hardware issues. The M50 has a "wireless" button, which saves you from going into the menus. Press the button, press 'set' to select the first entry and it will connect to wifi and wait for your phone.
I'd like Canon to be able to do it through a BLE service. You press a button in your phone app, your camera wakes up and connects to phone's WiFi. Even if Canon's current camera cannot do it yet (maybe they can), it's highly likely that it can be added with a firmware upgrade.

Most of the pictures I want to share go over iMessage, which won't be supported by the camera because of apple reasons, but a "post to instagram" option in playback would probably go a long way for that crowd. The new g7x supports live streaming to youtube, when will that land in the R series?
EOS RP supports live streaming into your local network. With some extra hardware and software (VLC or ffmpeg, for example), you should be able to forward it to a Youtube live stream. Of course, it is less convenient than having it in-camera, but more flexible.