Speedlites - How many are enough?

[privatebydesign]

We really need to stop calling lights with long durations and tuned to cover the time the shutter blades are exposing the sensor HSS, the two work in a fundamentally different way, long duration is not HSS, and both cost a massive amount of power.

Hah! Interesting point. HSS...strictly technically no but practically yes. What is it that defines "true HSS"?

We may have strayed from the strict HSS definition, but it's a useful terminology that people understand.
Think of it as living language. The acronym HSS communicates a function....High Speed Sync. Simple enough.

So what do we call it? We're achieving flash sync at a high shutter speed. We understand the limitations such as significant power loss, but it's still a very useful, relevant creative tool. Sounds a bit HSS-ish to me!

-pw

That is a grey area but let's call it what it originally was called Hyper sync. That version of sync causes you to lose tremendous power out of the strobe, flash duration and will eat through your VMLs quicker. In a sense, it's a work around but not a solution if you still need maximum power and short durations.

True high sync speed out of a x100/leaf shutter cameras is actual HSS. One pop within the full opening of the sensor and closing at above normal sync speeds.

Only if the flash duration happens in the time that the shutter is fully open, which at close to full power is never the case. Leaf shutter sync above "normal" speeds relies on very short flash duration. It is easy to prove because raising the flash power won't increase exposure (or even worse uneven exposure/heavy vignetting), leaf shutters work like an effective second aperture.

And I'd probably disagree with your definition of HSS, because it isn't "one pop within the full opening of the sensor", HSS is multiple flashes timed such that the exposure is even across the frame. I am not looking for a fight, just laying out the way it works.

I think the key is the difference between relying on very long (hypersync) or short (leaf shutters) duration flash, and pulsed "HSS" flash via modern IGBT circuitry. Hyper sync relies on long flash duration and no flashes give off even light across the duration of the exposure, though it is often even enough to be good. Leaf shutter sync relies on very fast flash duration which doesn't happen with high flash outputs.

This core difference in newer and older flash tech is where so many doors have been opened, but they have been workarounds and kludges. The plethora of new battery powered "studio" strobes like the Profoto B1 and the Phottix Indra 500 TTL, a Yongnuo version etc, all have genuine HSS IGBT pulsed flash capabilities, as could the Einstein if PCB ever decided to write the firmware.

 

[RLPhoto]

We really need to stop calling lights with long durations and tuned to cover the time the shutter blades are exposing the sensor HSS, the two work in a fundamentally different way, long duration is not HSS, and both cost a massive amount of power.

Hah! Interesting point. HSS...strictly technically no but practically yes. What is it that defines "true HSS"?

We may have strayed from the strict HSS definition, but it's a useful terminology that people understand.
Think of it as living language. The acronym HSS communicates a function....High Speed Sync. Simple enough.

So what do we call it? We're achieving flash sync at a high shutter speed. We understand the limitations such as significant power loss, but it's still a very useful, relevant creative tool. Sounds a bit HSS-ish to me!

-pw

That is a grey area but let's call it what it originally was called Hyper sync. That version of sync causes you to lose tremendous power out of the strobe, flash duration and will eat through your VMLs quicker. In a sense, it's a work around but not a solution if you still need maximum power and short durations.

True high sync speed out of a x100/leaf shutter cameras is actual HSS. One pop within the full opening of the sensor and closing at above normal sync speeds.

Only if the flash duration happens in the time that the shutter is fully open, which at close to full power is never the case. Leaf shutter sync above "normal" speeds relies on very short flash duration. It is easy to prove because raising the flash power won't increase exposure (or even worse uneven exposure/heavy vignetting), leaf shutters work like an effective second aperture.

And I'd probably disagree with your definition of HSS, because it isn't "one pop within the full opening of the sensor", HSS is multiple flashes timed such that the exposure is even across the frame. I am not looking for a fight, just laying out the way it works.

I think the key is the difference between relying on very long (hypersync) or short (leaf shutters) duration flash, and pulsed "HSS" flash via modern IGBT circuitry. Hyper sync relies on long flash duration and no flashes give off even light across the duration of the exposure, though it is often even enough to be good. Leaf shutter sync relies on very fast flash duration which doesn't happen with high flash outputs.

This core difference in newer and older flash tech is where so many doors have been opened, but they have been workarounds and kludges. The plethora of new battery powered "studio" strobes like the Profoto B1 and the Phottix Indra 500 TTL, a Yongnuo version etc, all have genuine HSS IGBT pulsed flash capabilities, as could the Einstein if PCB ever decided to write the firmware.

Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement

True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)

HSS - pulsed flash over the duration of the curtain movement.

I think you misread my comment, all of these methods are ways of syncing at High speeds, hence HSS but the most true form is the traditional method and the others are a workaround.

 

[privatebydesign]

Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement

True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)

HSS - pulsed flash over the duration of the curtain movement.

Agree on all counts, I'd just point out the often overlooked problem with flash duration and power output for "True high sync speeds", at this point in time full power flash pulses are not that fast, the Einstein for instance, which is often used as a perfect example of short flash duration, has a full power discharge duration of 1/588 of a second, and when we are opening up our lenses for narrow dof and balancing ambient and flash that full power can easily be used.

 

[AcutancePhotography]

How many speedlites do you need or how many speedlites do you want? The answer may be different.

 

[Quasimodo]

How many speedlites do you need or how many speedlites do you want? The answer may be different.

A valid and uncomfortable question.... I guess I WANT 15x600ex rt`s which a st-e3 allows, but is way over what I will probably ever need. I am thinking that 6 would be good, and if I need more, I have some friends who have a couple each which I can borrow on account of my good looks

 

[RLPhoto]

Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement

True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)

HSS - pulsed flash over the duration of the curtain movement.

Agree on all counts, I'd just point out the often overlooked problem with flash duration and power output for "True high sync speeds", at this point in time full power flash pulses are not that fast, the Einstein for instance, which is often used as a perfect example of short flash duration, has a full power discharge duration of 1/588 of a second, and when we are opening up our lenses for narrow dof and balancing ambient and flash that full power can easily be used.

Which at full power durations are slower, you will lose some power depending on how fast your strobe is (slower the worse), and will eat up your VML battery quicker.

 

[pwp]

Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement
True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)
HSS - pulsed flash over the duration of the curtain movement.

Agree on all counts, I'd just point out the often overlooked problem with flash duration and power output for "True high sync speeds", at this point in time full power flash pulses are not that fast, the Einstein for instance, which is often used as a perfect example of short flash duration, has a full power discharge duration of 1/588 of a second, and when we are opening up our lenses for narrow dof and balancing ambient and flash that full power can easily be used.

Thanks RLPhoto & privatebydesign for posting the definitions and commentary.

I had previously thought that HyperSync was a PocketWizard proprietory process & name. Good article here:
http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/hypersync_fpsync/

Still, language is a wild living creature, and I'd bet that the acronym HSS has gained unstoppable traction describing (correctly or incorrectly) the means of achieving flash sync at shutter speeds above standard maximum x-sync speeds.

-pw

 

[vlad]

A question to all you shooting with multiple speedlites. What is some good gear for getting two (or more?) into a softbox? Any specific softbox/mount/setup recommendations?

 

[privatebydesign]

Westcott Apollo 50"
http://www.fjwestcott.com/light-modifiers/halo-apollo/apollo/50-mega-js-apollo
Very good softbox for three or six flashes.



The Lightware forusquare
http://lightwaredirect.com/foursquare/index.html
Great modifier with much functionality.

Any Parabolic umbrella, The PCB PLM range are great value.
http://www.paulcbuff.com/plm.php

 

[Quasimodo]

Westcott Apollo 50"
http://www.fjwestcott.com/light-modifiers/halo-apollo/apollo/50-mega-js-apollo
Very good softbox for three or six flashes.



The Lightware forusquare
http://lightwaredirect.com/foursquare/index.html
Great modifier with much functionality.

Any Parabolic umbrella, The PCB PLM range are great value.
http://www.paulcbuff.com/plm.php

Thanks for the tip! So fare I have been using a tri-hotshoe and a large umbrella, but I will look into your suggestions
While I cannot contribute to the discussion about the very nature of HSS, to me it is the ability to shoot faster than my 1Dx (and soon 7DII)´s 1/250. Hence my need for more than three 600´s

 

[axtstern]

I'm using a patchwork/bastard family of 2 Canon 430s 2 Yongnuos and 1 Nissin.
They all work in my relative small setup without transmitters and they work well together.

Tranmitters I only use when have to add a studio strobe to power the beauty dish.

The mixed setup came because of organic growth and me being to shallow in the pockets to consolidate my setup.

Meanwhile I'm used to the setup and I like the individual strength of the system:
The rather extreme focus help of 2 Yongnuos firing, the Master abilities of the Nissin and the extra channel/group it offers and of course the solidity of the Canon speedlites.

 

[AcutancePhotography]

Then there is Frank Doorhof, a Dutch fashion photographer, who says

If you think you need two lights, use one
If you think you need three lights, use one
If you are absolutly sure you need four lights, then you should start considering using two.

Not sure that advice applies to every situtation but it is probably a good general rule. ;D

 

[Quasimodo]

Then there is Frank Doorhof, a Dutch fashion photographer, who says

If you think you need two lights, use one
If you think you need three lights, use one
If you are absolutly sure you need four lights, then you should start considering using two.

Not sure that advice applies to every situtation but it is probably a good general rule. ;D

Love his pictures and videos, although he shoots with the wrong system

 

[meson1]

I started with one 600EX-RT, just a couple of months ago. Then, because I've probably got more money than sense, I bought two more and an ST-E3-RT. And now I've just gone and ordered three Godox PB820s. And I have an off-brand octagonal softbox umbrella on the way.

I haven't even bought any light stands yet. Need to find some that are cheap but sturdy. I'm trying to find that sweet spot between cheap & flimsy and strong, but expensive.

 

[jlbeck]

My suggestion is 3 600EX-RT and one ST-E3-RT.

Anytime you are using one 600ex and using more than half power the battery cycle time be the limiting
factor. My advice is to gang 2 600ex in that instance to reduce recycle time. So that's why you need at least 2.

I recommend a third 600ex for those times when you shoot outdoors and use HSS. Gang the 3 together
for power and cycle time.

 

[meson1]

My reasoning for three is that at a minimum, you'd need a key light, a fill light and a light for rim, hair or background. And that most variations over and above that could be achieved with creative positioning of lights and reflectors.

 

[Besisika]

I think, it all depends on what you do and the assignment.
At home, I use only strobes.
On location, one (rarely two) Einstein bounced on the ceiling and one speedlite on a stick for creative lighting is enough. I rarely pull out a second speedlite for rim (and yet I bought 6 of them).
I simply hate changing batteries. I found it time consuming setting them up and too many variables to worry about.
I must read that Frank Doorhof guy to understand his approach. Sounds interesting.

 

[Mitch.Conner]

I have 1 600EX-RT. I'd like to have at least 2 more with the transmitter/controller. Optimally, I see myself with 5-7 plus the controller so that I can double up on sources.

Then again, perhaps I should just get some Profotos like I've wanted for a while to replace my cheap Smith Victor "newbie" lights and leave the Speedlites at 3.

 

[Halfrack]

Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement

True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)

HSS - pulsed flash over the duration of the curtain movement.

I think you misread my comment, all of these methods are ways of syncing at High speeds, hence HSS but the most true form is the traditional method and the others are a workaround.

There is nothing 'true' or 'high sync speed' when sync'ing above 1/250th or 1/180th or even 1/60th. HSS is sync'ing multiple bursts over a curtain movement - where the sync is with the slit being exposed is perfectly timed with the speedlites. Sync'ing with a Leaf shutter doesn't involve multiple bursts.

Sync'ing with a 'slow' strobe or speedlight where your shutter speed is faster than the lights t.1 time is just that, dealing with slow lights. The issue is that you're not going to get even exposure over the frame, let alone between shots.

Now, with all that said, with the faster studio lights, like Einsteins in the fast mode, or the Bron Move2 packs that'll do a 1/10,000 flash duration, you can 'sync' at 1/125th or even slower, and 'freeze' your subject with light. Then, all sync'ing at a faster speed does is allow you to kill the ambient light.

 

[RLPhoto]

Hyper sync - long duration flash over the entire curtain movement

True high sync speeds - standard sync method but @ above 1/250th. (Which is still the best and most efficient but expensive.)

HSS - pulsed flash over the duration of the curtain movement.

I think you misread my comment, all of these methods are ways of syncing at High speeds, hence HSS but the most true form is the traditional method and the others are a workaround.

There is nothing 'true' or 'high sync speed' when sync'ing above 1/250th or 1/180th or even 1/60th. HSS is sync'ing multiple bursts over a curtain movement - where the sync is with the slit being exposed is perfectly timed with the speedlites. Sync'ing with a Leaf shutter doesn't involve multiple bursts.

Sync'ing with a 'slow' strobe or speedlight where your shutter speed is faster than the lights t.1 time is just that, dealing with slow lights. The issue is that you're not going to get even exposure over the frame, let alone between shots.

Now, with all that said, with the faster studio lights, like Einsteins in the fast mode, or the Bron Move2 packs that'll do a 1/10,000 flash duration, you can 'sync' at 1/125th or even slower, and 'freeze' your subject with light. Then, all sync'ing at a faster speed does is allow you to kill the ambient light.

I don't get what your point is with this comment but whatever.