Two new EOS R bodies coming in the first half of 2020 [CR3]

pj1974

80D, M5, 7D, & lots of glass and accessories!
Oct 18, 2011
623
99
Adelaide, Australia
Some (friendly) comments from across the Tasman.
I suggest you spend some time with an EOS R. In relation to your wishes:
- Currently 30MP, so not far from your range.
- With the firmware update, AF is very good.
- I think framerate can be overhyped by non-sports or wildlife photographers. The EOS R can do 8fps (albeit without AF).
- Image quality is as good (if not slightly better) than 5DIV (see my post on the R upgrade thread).
- If you set the default jpg picture style to "neutral" or similar, you have a less contrasty image in the EVF. The EVF was one thing that delayed me getting the R, but I am now largely used to it.
- IBIS would be nice
- Video is potentially an issue if you need uncropped 4k.

I think that the R is a surprisngly good camera - this realisation comes after a couple of months of ownership. And a reasonable price now. Who knows what the new versions will deliver and what they will cost.
Aussie greetings Frodo in the fair land of NZ... oops I mean MiddleEarth!

Below I'll address your response to my message about why the EOS R isn't the camera for me.

I did not go into depth about ergonomics in my earlier post, but that is part (but definitely not the only reason) why the EOS R isn’t the camera for me. FWIW, from the very beginning I knew that the EOS R would be a much better ‘performing’ camera – in the field, and in use, than many of the ‘spec sheet warriors’. I have known and appreciated this about many Canon cameras for many years. While one does get more accustomed to ergonomics in time, there is also very much a degree where ergonomics don’t work to a degree one is comfortable for. I have owned several cameras over multiple decades (from the 1980’s till today) – including many Canon and other brand DSLRs. Certain cameras I picked up and knew they would work for me (and they have), whereas others I picked up and didn’t feel comfortable from the beginning, and I tried to ‘make the work’ – but each time, after some time, I sold these (after some months of use). So I am very aware of what works and what doesn’t for me. The R’s ergonomics don’t work for me.

I have spent some time with the EOS R, not just once, but multiple times, including some extended periods borrowing a friend's EOS R matched with some of his and my own quality L (& non-L) glass. It feels uncomfortable for me / my hands to hold with glass that is heavier than 300gr. Compared to using 5D series, 80D, 7D, etc – the EOS R gives me hand cramp and the body layout is not intuitive to me.

(As an aside, but related note, the M5’s ergonomics are worse than the R, but that has the constraint of being a much smaller ‘system’ – and I accept the poorer ergonomics of the EOS M system, because it is – for me – the small / much more portable system).

Now, as to the other aspects you list, I’ll go through them one by one. Please read and understand that I am “not hating on the EOS R” – it is a great camera for certain (even many!) purposes, but it does not (yet) all my needs/wants in a photography tool.

  • 36 MP is really the minimum I want, 50MP would be ideal. There’s a real, notable difference between 30MP and 50MP (my ideal) especially when it comes to cropping, e.g. for wildlife, or certain takes on landscape photography. I do take your point though, it’s not like ’30 MP’ is ‘low’ – I have used digital cameras of under 1 MP back many years ago! The earliest DSLRs I toyed with were around 6MP.
  • AF is good (accurate and great at tracking), but it is not yet ideal for fast moving subjects (think birds in flight, which rapidly change in direction). My DSLRs do a better job in terms of usability here (not necessarily accuracy)
  • There is a minimum frame rate that realistically works for certain sports and wildlife. (I do a fair bit of both these types of photography). The EOS R just doesn’t cut it in this regard because as I wrote in my earlier post, FPS must match continual AF to be meaningful for me. The M6 mkII definitely hints of better potential for the future EOS R models
  • I have no complaints about the EOS R’s image quality… but banding is a concern I mentioned, in the that that it won’t appear with a new sensor – as some sensor changes have introduced in the past (not just Canon)
  • Thanks for the reminder about setting JPG style to neutral (and I manually turned down the contrast and saturation) on my M5. I had known about that before, so I changed that last night, and the view through the VF definitely improved, cheers! I shoot images exclusively in RAW file format, so that’s fine – as it doesn’t impact the actual image outcome
  • Glad that we agree, IBIS would be nice.
  • Video is not a big consideration for me… though I will write here, that a high FPS, to allow slow-motion is one feature I use occasionally (e.g. for my remote control cars driving around, doing stunts, etc). I don’t need 4k (but I do understand for some more serious videographers, how important this can be).
I am looking forward to new EOS R models Canon will purportedly release over the first half of 2020!

Kind regards,

PJ
 

slclick

135L
Dec 17, 2013
3,886
1,692
In photography, you are absolutely correct. However, in video IBIS is very useful and welcome.
Today, on mirrorless bodies the usage is a lot for photo AND video. Not only photo.
Occasionally, some folks here chime in about wanting a stills only body. I agree that it is a bit ridiculous when in this day and age the costs associated with adding software are negligible to none for video yet now it can be argued that hardware is becoming more and more specific for video use. Therefore there are costs associated with the hybrid cameras (which 99% of bodies fall under) One thing I am getting at is all the talk about BSI sensors. I understand the low light shooting benefits but are there video implications as well? Also, what about BSI for monochrome?
 

scyrene

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 4, 2013
2,640
599
UK
www.flickr.com
IBIS is not a gimmick. Neither is AF for that matter, which is almost a necessity for photography today. I am sure that there were individuals screaming "what is that AF atrocity that you speak of?" back in the day when all anyone knew was manual focus.
If I may, there is a slight difference between the introduction of IBIS and AF - and I speak as someone who'd welcome it. IBIS would help lenses without IS quite a lot, maybe giving you 4-5 stops of stabilisation on shorter focal lengths (it's said to be less effective on longer lenses). But it might only add 1-2 stops extra onto already-stabilised lenses. That's great - every little helps - but it isn't as big a change as going from maual focus to autofocus. It's a difference of degree. Before AF, there was no option but to focus manually. As things stand now, there are plenty of stabilised lenses even before IBIS is introduced by Canon. So it's not as big a change. But I'd certainly enjoy making use of it.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
853
689
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
People have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 130 years. I have been making great photos without IBIS for more than 50 years. I take that to be proof that it is not necessary, though I recognize that it could be useful for some people—and gratifying for those who fall for every new gimmick that comes along.
First photograph was taken on a layer of bitumen with 8hrs exposure. The rest of advancements in photography wasn't really necessary, although useful, was it?
 
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slclick

135L
Dec 17, 2013
3,886
1,692
First photograph was taken on a layer of bitumen with 8hrs exposure. The rest of advancements in photography wasn't really necessary, although useful, was it?
Ooh 8 hours! I relish the anticipation! I've done a handful of sun exposed alternative process prints, most around 30 minutes but 8 hours? Everything these days is so immediate and sterile.
 

DarkPhalanx

Canon EOS R5
May 31, 2019
28
18
Montreal
www.instagram.com
If I may, there is a slight difference between the introduction of IBIS and AF - and I speak as someone who'd welcome it. IBIS would help lenses without IS quite a lot, maybe giving you 4-5 stops of stabilisation on shorter focal lengths (it's said to be less effective on longer lenses). But it might only add 1-2 stops extra onto already-stabilised lenses. That's great - every little helps - but it isn't as big a change as going from maual focus to autofocus. It's a difference of degree. Before AF, there was no option but to focus manually. As things stand now, there are plenty of stabilised lenses even before IBIS is introduced by Canon. So it's not as big a change. But I'd certainly enjoy making use of it.
While I understand your reply completely, I wasn't comparing the importance of the move from Manual to AF, but merely that it was an improvement in photography as we know it. For someone that uses a tripod in the majority of his photos to say that IBIS isn't important, he's correct....but it isn't important to HIM. You and I are in agreement though, in that we'll both enjoy making use of Canon's IBIS when it finally gets here. :)
 
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Graphic.Artifacts

EOS 7D MK II
Aug 1, 2017
536
379
Seems more like everyone has a different idea of what they want, and no matter what Canon produces, people will complain.
IMO there is plenty to complain about. It’s 2020, it’s been obvious for a decade that mirrorless cameras were where the future is headed and we still don’t have a mirrorless body that even comes close to the quality of an EOS 1,5 or even 7 series bodies. I’m sure some people are very happy with the R but I think it’s time we see a true measure of what Canon can do. If the best they can do is the existing R then what have they been doing for the last decade?
 

Kjsheldo

EOS M50
Dec 9, 2019
27
23
IMO there is plenty to complain about. It’s 2020, it’s been obvious for a decade that mirrorless cameras were where the future is headed and we still don’t have a mirrorless body that even comes close to the quality of an EOS 1,5 or even 7 series bodies. I’m sure some people are very happy with the R but I think it’s time we see a true measure of what Canon can do. If the best they can do is the existing R then what have they been doing for the last decade?
Totally agree. I don't mind the EOS R and use it regularly. But picking up a 5D, 7D, or 1DX feels like a different manufacturer entirely. The EOS R has some of the same issues that bother me so much about the Sony mirrorless cameras. Sony (and Canon) seem to think that because it's mirrorless, it should be more electronic than tactile. The Panasonic S1 series is heavy, but those feel like real PRO cameras. They are tactile, enjoyable to use, and just feel so good to hold and to change settings and everything else. Fuji is the same way. The EOS R takes some great images, but it's a pain to use. I want their new mirrorless cameras to feel more like their DSLRs, which you can do in a smaller package of course, or like their Cinema EOS cameras (again, just in terms of the feeling of using it).

Like all of Sonys cameras, the EOS R feels like a glorified toy. The Panasonic S1 and Fuji cameras feel like an artistic tool - like the difference of painting with a digital pen on your iPad vs actually painting with brushes and canvas.
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,444
703
Totally agree. I don't mind the EOS R and use it regularly. But picking up a 5D, 7D, or 1DX feels like a different manufacturer entirely. The EOS R has some of the same issues that bother me so much about the Sony mirrorless cameras. Sony (and Canon) seem to think that because it's mirrorless, it should be more electronic than tactile. The Panasonic S1 series is heavy, but those feel like real PRO cameras. They are tactile, enjoyable to use, and just feel so good to hold and to change settings and everything else. Fuji is the same way. The EOS R takes some great images, but it's a pain to use. I want their new mirrorless cameras to feel more like their DSLRs, which you can do in a smaller package of course, or like their Cinema EOS cameras (again, just in terms of the feeling of using it).

Like all of Sonys cameras, the EOS R feels like a glorified toy. The Panasonic S1 and Fuji cameras feel like an artistic tool - like the difference of painting with a digital pen on your iPad vs actually painting with brushes and canvas.
It kind of is! I will not get rid of my 5DIV and 5DsR cameras which I like and need. But at the same time it is a glorified toy behind 15-35 2.8L IS 24-70 2.8L IS 70-200 2.8L IS 50 1.2L 85 1.2L etc!
 

Kjsheldo

EOS M50
Dec 9, 2019
27
23
It kind of is! I will not get rid of my 5DIV and 5DsR cameras which I like and need. But at the same time it is a glorified toy behind 15-35 2.8L IS 24-70 2.8L IS 70-200 2.8L IS 50 1.2L 85 1.2L etc!
haha exactly. the lenses are amazing so once they make a professional tool and a cinema EOS camera with the RF Mount, I'll go all in. (The Red Komodo will get there first, it seems).
 

canonnews

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 27, 2017
543
786
Canada
www.canonnews.com
As far as I know, Canon has never referred to an upcoming R Mark II. The next medium res camera may be more of a 5D mirrorless than a R Mark II (with a price to match). They do seem to have the technology to make that kind of jump, but I don't think it will happen at the R price point.
I suspect this is more the case.

I think it's just being called a R Mark II right now because Canon hasn't settled on designations/naming yet.

I think we'll see two camera bodies that are the same from the outside and basically differ on sensor.
 

Joules

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 16, 2017
619
577
Hamburg, Germany
I suspect this is more the case.

I think it's just being called a R Mark II right now because Canon hasn't settled on designations/naming yet.
From a CR rumor:

"The source claims that the Canon EOS R Mark II is slated to be announced ahead of Photokina in May and will closely mimic the ergonomics of the Canon EOS Rs, which is slated to be the next EOS R body announced in the first quarter of 2020."

I guess you anticipating the same thing means this is a pretty good rumor, apart from the body names. But could you clarify if you mean that the lower resolution RF camera coming is a replacement for the R that has a different name and price point, or if you are suggesting this camera is its own model and a R replacement is coming at a different time?
 

canonnews

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 27, 2017
543
786
Canada
www.canonnews.com
From a CR rumor:

"The source claims that the Canon EOS R Mark II is slated to be announced ahead of Photokina in May and will closely mimic the ergonomics of the Canon EOS Rs, which is slated to be the next EOS R body announced in the first quarter of 2020."

I guess you anticipating the same thing means this is a pretty good rumor, apart from the body names. But could you clarify if you mean that the lower resolution RF camera coming is a replacement for the R that has a different name and price point, or if you are suggesting this camera is its own model and a R replacement is coming at a different time?
Long winded answer...

I personally see Canon doing something similar to the 5D and 5Ds. it's a hugely successful line - so why wouldn't Canon do it?

the theory behind my supposition

1) the 1 series RF camera will most likely have 1 series ergonomics. Canon wants pros to seamless migrate from the 1 series EF to the 1 series RF... anything else but the 1 series ergos would be insane.

2) the R does not have anything close to that bridge between prosumer and professional ergonomics. ie: the 7D or the 5D level of ergonomics. buttons, tactile controls, joystick,etc - and is missing core specs - higher end weather sealing, performance, and dual card slots,etc. aka the R is not the 5D for the RF mount.

So there's a gap between the R and a 1 series RF camera. that's where IMO, canon is going to shove this camera that we're calling the R Mark II, and the Rs camera (low and high res). Lower end professional / high end prosumer. aka what the 7D and 5D lines were for the EF mount.

Of course, that's just all a theory and I may be totally wrong, but to be honest with you - I'd be surprised if that's not these two cameras coming up.

neither will be cheap though.

I think we're going to end up by 2022 with something like this:

1 series RF (the 1 series EF)
R5 series (think the 7D and 5D bodies)
R series (think 90D/6D)
RP series (think super rebels T7s, 77D,etc)
R Kiss series (cheaper rebel bodies)

canon has never been a conformist when it comes to its camera segments. They aren't going to match Sony, but slip in between them sideways. where sony will happily sell you an outdated A7 body and call it a cheaper camera, Canon will make a distinct line instead.
 

amorse

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 26, 2017
600
652
www.instagram.com
I think we're going to end up by 2022 with something like this:

1 series RF (the 1 series EF)
R5 series (think the 7D and 5D bodies)
R series (think 90D/6D)
RP series (think super rebels T7s, 77D,etc)
R Kiss series (cheaper rebel bodies)

canon has never been a conformist when it comes to its camera segments. They aren't going to match Sony, but slip in between them sideways. where sony will happily sell you an outdated A7 body and call it a cheaper camera, Canon will make a distinct line instead.
I think you're on the right track - that is very much in line with their past direction, but part of me wonders if they'll make any changes in their approach as they transition to the R series. I can't help but wonder if they'll try to reduce the number of lines they're maintaining in order to increase the frequency of releases or updates, but that could mean somewhat different market positioning for some bodies. For instance, I wonder if you'd see them move the 5D equivalent bodies up market a bit now that there's two full frame bodies below it in the R and RP.

I think you're right on the R kiss too - it seems like an even lower price R series body could be necessary to get more entry level users to enter the R ecosystem and then gradually move their way up the line. The RP is very price conscious as it is, but no doubt there are a lot of potential buyers where the RP and a lens would be at or beyond the ceiling of what they're willing to pay for a good camera.
 

Krob78

When in Doubt, Press the Shutter...
Aug 8, 2012
1,456
10
The Florida Peninsula
Aussie greetings Frodo in the fair land of NZ... oops I mean MiddleEarth!

Below I'll address your response to my message about why the EOS R isn't the camera for me.

I did not go into depth about ergonomics in my earlier post, but that is part (but definitely not the only reason) why the EOS R isn’t the camera for me. FWIW, from the very beginning I knew that the EOS R would be a much better ‘performing’ camera – in the field, and in use, than many of the ‘spec sheet warriors’. I have known and appreciated this about many Canon cameras for many years. While one does get more accustomed to ergonomics in time, there is also very much a degree where ergonomics don’t work to a degree one is comfortable for. I have owned several cameras over multiple decades (from the 1980’s till today) – including many Canon and other brand DSLRs. Certain cameras I picked up and knew they would work for me (and they have), whereas others I picked up and didn’t feel comfortable from the beginning, and I tried to ‘make the work’ – but each time, after some time, I sold these (after some months of use). So I am very aware of what works and what doesn’t for me. The R’s ergonomics don’t work for me.

I have spent some time with the EOS R, not just once, but multiple times, including some extended periods borrowing a friend's EOS R matched with some of his and my own quality L (& non-L) glass. It feels uncomfortable for me / my hands to hold with glass that is heavier than 300gr. Compared to using 5D series, 80D, 7D, etc – the EOS R gives me hand cramp and the body layout is not intuitive to me.

(As an aside, but related note, the M5’s ergonomics are worse than the R, but that has the constraint of being a much smaller ‘system’ – and I accept the poorer ergonomics of the EOS M system, because it is – for me – the small / much more portable system).

Now, as to the other aspects you list, I’ll go through them one by one. Please read and understand that I am “not hating on the EOS R” – it is a great camera for certain (even many!) purposes, but it does not (yet) all my needs/wants in a photography tool.

  • 36 MP is really the minimum I want, 50MP would be ideal. There’s a real, notable difference between 30MP and 50MP (my ideal) especially when it comes to cropping, e.g. for wildlife, or certain takes on landscape photography. I do take your point though, it’s not like ’30 MP’ is ‘low’ – I have used digital cameras of under 1 MP back many years ago! The earliest DSLRs I toyed with were around 6MP.
  • AF is good (accurate and great at tracking), but it is not yet ideal for fast moving subjects (think birds in flight, which rapidly change in direction). My DSLRs do a better job in terms of usability here (not necessarily accuracy)
  • There is a minimum frame rate that realistically works for certain sports and wildlife. (I do a fair bit of both these types of photography). The EOS R just doesn’t cut it in this regard because as I wrote in my earlier post, FPS must match continual AF to be meaningful for me. The M6 mkII definitely hints of better potential for the future EOS R models
  • I have no complaints about the EOS R’s image quality… but banding is a concern I mentioned, in the that that it won’t appear with a new sensor – as some sensor changes have introduced in the past (not just Canon)
  • Thanks for the reminder about setting JPG style to neutral (and I manually turned down the contrast and saturation) on my M5. I had known about that before, so I changed that last night, and the view through the VF definitely improved, cheers! I shoot images exclusively in RAW file format, so that’s fine – as it doesn’t impact the actual image outcome
  • Glad that we agree, IBIS would be nice.
  • Video is not a big consideration for me… though I will write here, that a high FPS, to allow slow-motion is one feature I use occasionally (e.g. for my remote control cars driving around, doing stunts, etc). I don’t need 4k (but I do understand for some more serious videographers, how important this can be).
I am looking forward to new EOS R models Canon will purportedly release over the first half of 2020!

Kind regards,

PJ
Well said my friend! I have the 7d2, 5d4 and the R. All capable pieces of equipment, but each with their particular nuances. I do find switching between the 5d4 and the 7d2, to be quite instinctive or easier, yet switching to the R after either of the others is still a challenge for me. My 5D4 I can shoot without hesitation, without having to think about where my fingers are going or what changes they are about to make, yet with the R, it's still not intuitive, often wrong buttons are hit and the screen sometimes changes and I find difficulty getting it back to where I needed it. Those are all in part ergonomic issues for me, but also the layout as well. I've captured some great images with my R, and I will say I like it, but it's more of a chore to work with than either of the others... I'll keep all 3 for now..

Cheers!

Ken
 
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CanonFanBoy

Really O.K. Boomer
Jan 28, 2015
4,703
2,624
Irving, Texas
I think we're going to end up by 2022 with something like this:

1 series RF (the 1 series EF)
R5 series (think the 7D and 5D bodies)
R series (think 90D/6D)
RP series (think super rebels T7s, 77D,etc)
R Kiss series (cheaper rebel bodies)
1 series R
5 series R (5D replacement eventually)
RP (6D Replacement)
Rebels are dead (Replaced by M)
No KISS