300mm f/2.8L IS II vs. 400mm f/4 DO IS II ---> price difference

[Jack Douglas]

Collected the 5D IV this morning. It's a pain just having DP 4.5 as the only available software. What I can say at this stage is that the focus with the 400 DO II + 2xTC is very snappy and consistent. There is an increase in resolution on going from 400 -> 560 -> 800mm by about what is expected, whereas the 5DS R maxes out at 560mm. But, the 5DS R at 560mm looks sharper than the 5D IV at 800mm. For static photos, the 5DS R will beat out the 5D IV for "reach". As mooted by Arash in the fredmiranda thread, AF is significantly better with the 5D IV and it is faster, which will be better for birds in flight, and the 1DX II is better still. But, Arash is a BIF specialist and I am more of a sitting duck shooter.

Alan, thanks for this. Is the camera on loan or are you serious about buying it?

From what Ari is saying the trade off is essentially this. The snappiest AF that to him is acceptable with 2X is with the 1DX II and the 1D4 doesn't cut it. For you and I we are not as dedicated to BIF and so that assessment may not be valid.

Since you have the 5D4 in your hands I guess with a little time you can assess that. Is the 30 MPs with poorer AF a good trade off or are we going to also lose relative to the 1DX II larger pixels and better IQ, albeit at 20 MPs?

I know first hand that my 6D competed quite well with my friends 1DX for IQ when cropping, so that's always in the back of my mind when I think of the 1DX II with only 20 MPs.

Jack

 

[AlanF]

Jack
The trade off for me is that the 5D IV is 640g/22.6oz lighter. I couldn't comfortably hike with the 400 DO on the 1DX II or use it arms extended for a length of time, and I'm getting older each year. Still, I suppose I could use my heavy duty Manfrotto monopod as as a walking stick and to help hold the gear for extended periods when stationary. Also, if I need a snappier response, I can use the 5D IV with the 1.4x TC, which has only slightly less reach than the 2xTC on the 1DX II, and also have an extra stop for higher shutter speed or lower ISO.

 

[Jack Douglas]

Jack
The trade off for me is that the 5D IV is 640g/22.6oz lighter. I couldn't comfortably hike with the 400 DO on the 1DX II or use it arms extended for a length of time, and I'm getting older each year. Still, I suppose I could use my heavy duty Manfrotto monopod as as a walking stick and to help hold the gear for extended periods when stationary. Also, if I need a snappier response, I can use the 5D IV with the 1.4x TC, which has only slightly less reach than the 2xTC on the 1DX II, and also have an extra stop for higher shutter speed or lower ISO.

Alan, that's a very valid point. I hiked a lot with 300 X2 with the 1D4 and found it OK but the 1DX II is somewhat heavier, although now the 400 DO II is a bit lighter.

The 400 is lighter but with my first serious 5 minute walk with it, X2 on the 6D, I could tell I hadn't shot much in the last few months. It's easy to say it's hand holdable but as a person ages the inevitable loss of strength is a given.

So for me, the question that I ask that might still shift me to the 1DX II is again how the 30 MPs fairs, all things considered compared to 20 MPs (IQ and reach). If 1 level MPs seriously make up a lot of the difference I'd probably go 1DX II. We both need cropping latitude.

Jack

 

[Jack Douglas]

Alan, so that's a 5D4 purchase? That shop must like you!

Jack

 

[AlanF]

Jack, remember there are two of us who go out regularly bird photographing. Yesterday, my wife used the 5DS R with the 100-400mm II and I used the 5DIV with the 400mm DO II plus extenders. She got some excellent shots as the 5DS/100-400 is a superb combo for static shots. She did much better than she used to with the 7DII.

The 5DIV had what was lacking in the 5DS, really good AF for birds in flight (I use 560mm for the wider field of view). It also handles the 400 at 800mm really well, unlike the 5DS R, which maxes out at 560 with that lens.

 

[Jack Douglas]

Jack, remember there are two of us who go out regularly bird photographing. Yesterday, my wife used the 5DS R with the 100-400mm II and I used the 5DIV with the 400mm DO II plus extenders. She got some excellent shots as the 5DS/100-400 is a superb combo for static shots. She did much better than she used to with the 7DII.

The 5DIV had what was lacking in the 5DS, really good AF for birds in flight (I use 560mm for the wider field of view). It also handles the 400 at 800mm really well, unlike the 5DS R, which maxes out at 560 with that lens.

Well then Alan, you are set (I still somehow think you managed to acquire two toys with some pretty good rationalization!).

I agree that for those of us that may not be up to the level of Ari, 560 is enough for BIF, although distant birds in the sky should be OK with 800 on the 5D4 from what I gather. I'd sure appreciate your feedback on the 400 X2 before I purchase my camera.

I've pretty much made up my mind that my 300 has to be sold now because it simply won't get any use. There is one exception, that is, from a blind with very near proximity it has a better MFD. I'll have to adjust my prop distance since I need infinity as well and don't want to be caught with a tube and place and lose that flexibility.

So, I'm generally very pleased with the lens and the price ($1874 CAD less than my local shop sells it for, and $794 less than a new 300). Without that reality I probably wouldn't have it!

My Jobu foot swapped over to the 400 and is even better now as a handle. All it needs is a little plastic thingambob that would slide on the arca swiss dovetail and it would be superb - guess that'll be my next project.

Jack

 

[AlanF]

Jack
For birds at rest, the 400x2 is excellent, and gives better resolution than 400x1.4 on the 5DIV. There are so few birds flying around at present I haven't been able to test the 400x2. As for mfd, I have the 100-400mm II, which gets down to less than 1 m and is very sharp at 300mm and light compared with the 300/2.8. My wife with the 100-400mm on the 5DS R and I with the 400 + TCs on the 5DIV are pretty well covered for most situations.

Of course, you could sell everything and buy the new Sigma 500/4 - it weighs only 2.2 kg more than the 400 DO - and have money left over for a 1DX II

 

[tron]

Jack
For birds at rest, the 400x2 is excellent, and gives better resolution than 400x1.4 on the 5DIV. There are so few birds flying around at present I haven't been able to test the 400x2. As for mfd, I have the 100-400mm II, which gets down to less than 1 m and is very sharp at 300mm and light compared with the 300/2.8. My wife with the 100-400mm on the 5DS R and I with the 400 + TCs on the 5DIV are pretty well covered for most situations.

Of course, you could sell everything and buy the new Sigma 500/4 - it weighs only 2.2 kg more than the 400 DO - and have money left over for a 1DX II

;D ;D ;D In fact he will possible have to get a new Sigma 500 at the future just like the previous 500 4.5 EX does not work with many cameras. So he will have again money left for the future Canon bodies ;D ;D ;D

 

[AlanF]

oops, I meant 1.2 kg or 2.64lb heavier. To be fair, with the new Sigma dock, the lens should be reprogrammable.

Edit after price announcement: the Sigma 500/4 is hardly cheaper than the 400mm DO II.

 

[Jack Douglas]

I have no plans to buy more lenses other than possibly the 100 macro. Since I've now walked a bit with the 400 it really doesn't feel any lighter than the 300 but I sure prefer the barrel diameter - less stress on my hand holding it.

Jack

 

[tron]

oops, I meant 1.2 kg or 2.64lb heavier. To be fair, with the new Sigma dock, the lens should be reprogrammable.

Edit after price announcement: the Sigma 500/4 is hardly cheaper than the 400mm DO II.

It is about 0.1 Kg heavier than the Canon 500/4 II. I would get Canon over Sigma any day (oh wait I do have it ;D ) Still 400 DO II is fantastic with 7D2

 

[arthurbikemad]

oops, I meant 1.2 kg or 2.64lb heavier. To be fair, with the new Sigma dock, the lens should be reprogrammable.

Edit after price announcement: the Sigma 500/4 is hardly cheaper than the 400mm DO II.

It is about 0.1 Kg heavier than the Canon 500/4 II. I would get Canon over Sigma any day (oh wait I do have it ;D ) Still 400 DO II is fantastic with 7D2

I've just ordered a 7D2 for my walk about bird sessions to go with my 500/4ii. I have a good feeling about the crop body after getting some great results with my girls 1200D. (and cheap compared to a 1DX2/5D4 etc)

 

[Jack Douglas]

oops, I meant 1.2 kg or 2.64lb heavier. To be fair, with the new Sigma dock, the lens should be reprogrammable.

Edit after price announcement: the Sigma 500/4 is hardly cheaper than the 400mm DO II.

It is about 0.1 Kg heavier than the Canon 500/4 II. I would get Canon over Sigma any day (oh wait I do have it ;D ) Still 400 DO II is fantastic with 7D2

I've just ordered a 7D2 for my walk about bird sessions to go with my 500/4ii. I have a good feeling about the crop body after getting some great results with my girls 1200D. (and cheap compared to a 1DX2/5D4 etc)

Used ones also seem to be showing up now at pretty decent prices. Might be worth considering as a back-up for sure. Were the issues that many complained about largely from early adopters?

Jack

 

[arthurbikemad]

oops, I meant 1.2 kg or 2.64lb heavier. To be fair, with the new Sigma dock, the lens should be reprogrammable.

Edit after price announcement: the Sigma 500/4 is hardly cheaper than the 400mm DO II.

It is about 0.1 Kg heavier than the Canon 500/4 II. I would get Canon over Sigma any day (oh wait I do have it ;D ) Still 400 DO II is fantastic with 7D2

I've just ordered a 7D2 for my walk about bird sessions to go with my 500/4ii. I have a good feeling about the crop body after getting some great results with my girls 1200D. (and cheap compared to a 1DX2/5D4 etc)

Used ones also seem to be showing up now at pretty decent prices. Might be worth considering as a back-up for sure. Were the issues that many complained about largely from early adopters?

Jack

I got a brand new 7D2 (3 Yr 3rd party guarantee), Canon grip, second LP-E6N, 64GB SD and a 64GB CF all for £1300.00 UK Pounds, I am looking forward to getting out with it and the 500/4ii as well as my 70-200ii and 100-400ii, I think it will boost my images IQ as I will be able to loose the x1.4iii and x2.0iii more so given the 7D2's native x1.6 crop factor, plus I don't loose stops of light, the 7D2 has built up quite a show of fantastic images all over the net some of are shown right here, (great images by the way people!). When I think about my kit bag having a crop body on the side has a great deal to offer, its like a whole new line up of glass!

I don't know of any current issues now in regard to focus and other niggles reported in the early days of the 7D2, I think more than enough time has passed that now is a great time to buy imo (price, probs, firmware and so on).

 

[Jack Douglas]

oops, I meant 1.2 kg or 2.64lb heavier. To be fair, with the new Sigma dock, the lens should be reprogrammable.

Edit after price announcement: the Sigma 500/4 is hardly cheaper than the 400mm DO II.

It is about 0.1 Kg heavier than the Canon 500/4 II. I would get Canon over Sigma any day (oh wait I do have it ;D ) Still 400 DO II is fantastic with 7D2

I've just ordered a 7D2 for my walk about bird sessions to go with my 500/4ii. I have a good feeling about the crop body after getting some great results with my girls 1200D. (and cheap compared to a 1DX2/5D4 etc)

Used ones also seem to be showing up now at pretty decent prices. Might be worth considering as a back-up for sure. Were the issues that many complained about largely from early adopters?

Jack

I got a brand new 7D2 (3 Yr 3rd party guarantee), Canon grip, second LP-E6N, 64GB SD and a 64GB CF all for £1300.00 UK Pounds, I am looking forward to getting out with it and the 500/4ii as well as my 70-200ii and 100-400ii, I think it will boost my images IQ as I will be able to loose the x1.4iii and x2.0iii more so given the 7D2's native x1.6 crop factor, plus I don't loose stops of light, the 7D2 has built up quite a show of fantastic images all over the net some of are shown right here, (great images by the way people!). When I think about my kit bag having a crop body on the side has a great deal to offer, its like a whole new line up of glass!

I don't know of any current issues now in regard to focus and other niggles reported in the early days of the 7D2, I think more than enough time has passed that now is a great time to buy imo (price, probs, firmware and so on).

Here in Canada Canon has it on sale for $1800 CAD (1368 USD) so it is tempting.

However, there is never unanimity on the 1.6 reach advantage vs 1.4X extender.

Jack

 

[arthurbikemad]

oops, I meant 1.2 kg or 2.64lb heavier. To be fair, with the new Sigma dock, the lens should be reprogrammable.

Edit after price announcement: the Sigma 500/4 is hardly cheaper than the 400mm DO II.

It is about 0.1 Kg heavier than the Canon 500/4 II. I would get Canon over Sigma any day (oh wait I do have it ;D ) Still 400 DO II is fantastic with 7D2

I've just ordered a 7D2 for my walk about bird sessions to go with my 500/4ii. I have a good feeling about the crop body after getting some great results with my girls 1200D. (and cheap compared to a 1DX2/5D4 etc)

Used ones also seem to be showing up now at pretty decent prices. Might be worth considering as a back-up for sure. Were the issues that many complained about largely from early adopters?

Jack

I got a brand new 7D2 (3 Yr 3rd party guarantee), Canon grip, second LP-E6N, 64GB SD and a 64GB CF all for £1300.00 UK Pounds, I am looking forward to getting out with it and the 500/4ii as well as my 70-200ii and 100-400ii, I think it will boost my images IQ as I will be able to loose the x1.4iii and x2.0iii more so given the 7D2's native x1.6 crop factor, plus I don't loose stops of light, the 7D2 has built up quite a show of fantastic images all over the net some of are shown right here, (great images by the way people!). When I think about my kit bag having a crop body on the side has a great deal to offer, its like a whole new line up of glass!

I don't know of any current issues now in regard to focus and other niggles reported in the early days of the 7D2, I think more than enough time has passed that now is a great time to buy imo (price, probs, firmware and so on).

Here in Canada Canon has it on sale for $1800 CAD (1368 USD) so it is tempting.

However, there is never unanimity on the 1.6 reach advantage vs 1.4X extender.

Jack

No I know, it's always a trade off one way or another, I hope to get some good results at 1120mm as well as 800mm, will have some shots end of week, will post a few up in the bird sections.

 

[tron]

oops, I meant 1.2 kg or 2.64lb heavier. To be fair, with the new Sigma dock, the lens should be reprogrammable.

Edit after price announcement: the Sigma 500/4 is hardly cheaper than the 400mm DO II.

It is about 0.1 Kg heavier than the Canon 500/4 II. I would get Canon over Sigma any day (oh wait I do have it ;D ) Still 400 DO II is fantastic with 7D2

I've just ordered a 7D2 for my walk about bird sessions to go with my 500/4ii. I have a good feeling about the crop body after getting some great results with my girls 1200D. (and cheap compared to a 1DX2/5D4 etc)

Used ones also seem to be showing up now at pretty decent prices. Might be worth considering as a back-up for sure. Were the issues that many complained about largely from early adopters?

Jack

I got a brand new 7D2 (3 Yr 3rd party guarantee), Canon grip, second LP-E6N, 64GB SD and a 64GB CF all for £1300.00 UK Pounds, I am looking forward to getting out with it and the 500/4ii as well as my 70-200ii and 100-400ii, I think it will boost my images IQ as I will be able to loose the x1.4iii and x2.0iii more so given the 7D2's native x1.6 crop factor, plus I don't loose stops of light, the 7D2 has built up quite a show of fantastic images all over the net some of are shown right here, (great images by the way people!). When I think about my kit bag having a crop body on the side has a great deal to offer, its like a whole new line up of glass!

I don't know of any current issues now in regard to focus and other niggles reported in the early days of the 7D2, I think more than enough time has passed that now is a great time to buy imo (price, probs, firmware and so on).

Here in Canada Canon has it on sale for $1800 CAD (1368 USD) so it is tempting.

However, there is never unanimity on the 1.6 reach advantage vs 1.4X extender.

Jack

No I know, it's always a trade off one way or another, I hope to get some good results at 1120mm as well as 800mm, will have some shots end of week, will post a few up in the bird sections.

Just make sure you use AFMA. I had to do that with my 7D2 + 500 II and 7D2 + 500 II + 1.4III
I had success with 7D2 + 500 II handheld and less success with 7D2 + 500 II + 1.4III. For the later combination I used tripod and my keepers increased a lot.