5D Mark III sensor cleaning noise (squeaks)

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Mt Spokane Photography said:
People can generally not hear ultrasonic tones, but they can dectect pulse trains at much higher than ultrasonic frequencies. They sound like a chirp.

http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/scc28/sc4/Human%20Perception%20FINAL.pdf
Hey that was an interesting read ;D. Makes a lot of sense and also made me wonder if some resonant effects also occur in the body, it reminded me of this Russian spying device called "The Thing":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_%28listening_device%29
 
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thebowtie said:
I wonder how you folks go when you stand near people operating hair dryers or power tools - the high-frequency harmonics must drive you nuts!

This is the kind of statement that, if made at high school, would lead to a serious beating. At least, at the high school that I attended :(
 
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I've owned three 60D bodies and one of them had the sensor cleaning squeak and the other two didn't. I don't think it's a matter of sensitivity to high frequency noise (the suggestion comes up every time this topic comes up) as my hearing range is tested in the normal range. I think it's manufacturing variances.
 
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I've been able to hear my XSi, 7D and my 5D Mark III. My wife can hear them too but it seems some people can't. It actually caused some concern when I first got the XSi years ago. I thought it was broken and the internet had very different opinions on it. The people that couldn't here it said it was broken, and others said it was fine. It was pretty funny actually.
 
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
People can generally not hear ultrasonic tones, but they can dectect pulse trains at much higher than ultrasonic frequencies. They sound like a chirp.

http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/scc28/sc4/Human%20Perception%20FINAL.pdf

This is a fascinating study, but it is not about detecting ultrasonic tones and doesn't really apply to the subject of ultrasonic hearing. The study is about human sensitivity to and detection of pulsed radio frequency energy, an energy which consists of oscillating electric and magnetic fields that travel in free (empty) space without air. This is the energy that, for example lives in the Amateur radio bands, well above the FM broadcast band for example, and well into the microwave region. This is the type of energy that eminates from Television brodcast antennas, cell phone towers, cordless phones, your laptop's WiFi system, and microwave repeaters. The study is not about ultrasonic "tones" and it is not about acoustic energy.

Acoustic energy (sound) consists of mechanical pressure waves and cannot be transmitted without a medium (such as air or water). This type of mechanical energy requires an energy source of mechanical origin -- something, like a speaker cone, clapping hands, or Placido Domingo's vocal chords, has to move the air. The energy used to clean the sensor is acoustic in nature -- this energy is vibrating the bejeebers out of somethign (the sensor) to shake dust loose. In this sense, we can think of the sensor as a really high frequency tweeter that no one can hear. In any case, if the acoustic energy emitted by the camera is within the set of frequencies to which your ears are sensitive, you will hear something but it won't be the 100Khz cleaning frequency itself. The question is -- how can a sensor cleaning device operating at six times the upper threshhold of human hearing result in an audible sound?

by far the best insight into what actually happens in sensor cleaning has been provided by TAF . Very nice info sir! TAF showed that the fundamental acoustic energy of the cleaning routine sweeps from 100KHz to 125HKz and back. there is no way that any human being of natural orgins and abilities can hear this. The acoustic pressure waves reaching the ear just do not produce any response from the eardrum. no way.

of course, if you blast your head with a tremendous high-energy assult of air pressure waves at 100KHz, something is bound to happen internally (to your body) that can be detected. but this is not what is happening with the tiny little speaker we know as the sensor cleaning routine. its a tiny little tweeter producing a very small amount of acoustic energy at frequencies that no one can hear.

what is far more likely, as TAF has rightly pointed out, is that there is some sympathetic or natural mechanical resonance that occurs within the camera structure itself -- much like the vibrations you hear from your dashboard when driving on certain roads... The structures themselves are responding at some subharmonic (a sub multiple of the 100KHz fundamental) that is within the range of human hearing. Note that if this sub-harmonic were present naturally in the sensor cleaning function itself you would hear a high-pitched tone that would sweep up and then back down, perhaps at the 7th or even 8th subharmonic (something between 12Khz and 18 KHz) The fact that no one has reported hearing a smooth frequency sweep is clear evidence to me that TAF is right -- there are fixed frequency mechanical resonances in the camera that will respond, some more than others, when the cleaning "sweep" reaches the right point in its sweep. Note that if there are two or more natural structural resonances within the camera, then you will hear two or more distinct tones or perhaps they will sound like chirps. in any case, you are not hearing the sensor cleaning function, you are hearing an artifact or side-effect of it.

what is clear to me , based on the above, is that (1) there is a very wide variation from camera to camera structural resonances, and owner to owner hearing abilities, with respect to what is actually heard during the cleaning routine, and (2) human hearing cannot possibly be used to measure the presence of or effectiveness of the cleaning routine because the cleaning routine itself cannot be heard!. If you hear something, then your ears are sensitive to whatever frequencies your camera's internal structures are vibrating at. Thats about it :D . Moreover, when you compare your audible results with someone else, then you are not comparing your respective cleaning systems, you are comparing your own hearing sensitivies and the natural structural resonances present in your respective camera bodies :D
 
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dlleno said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
People can generally not hear ultrasonic tones, but they can dectect pulse trains at much higher than ultrasonic frequencies. They sound like a chirp.

http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/scc28/sc4/Human%20Perception%20FINAL.pdf

This is a fascinating study, but it is not about detecting ultrasonic tones and doesn't really apply to the subject of ultrasonic hearing. The study is about human sensitivity to and detection of pulsed radio frequency energy, an energy which consists of oscillating electric and magnetic fields that travel in free (empty) space without air. This is the energy that, for example lives in the Amateur radio bands, well above the FM broadcast band for example, and well into the microwave region. This is the type of energy that eminates from Television brodcast antennas, cell phone towers, cordless phones, your laptop's WiFi system, and microwave repeaters. The study is not about ultrasonic "tones" and it is not about acoustic energy.


what is clear to me , based on the above, is that (1) there is a very wide variation from camera to camera structural resonances, and owner to owner hearing abilities, with respect to what is actually heard during the cleaning routine, and (2) human hearing cannot possibly be used to measure the presence of or effectiveness of the cleaning routine because the cleaning routine itself cannot be heard!. If you hear something, then your ears are sensitive to whatever frequencies your camera's internal structures are vibrating at. Thats about it :D . Moreover, when you compare your audible results with someone else, then you are not comparing your respective cleaning systems, you are comparing your own hearing sensitivies and the natural structural resonances present in your respective camera bodies :D
No argument here, I was just pointing out that there is still lots of things that we do not understand about hearing. We do not even understand how bone conduction allows some people to hear ultrasonics, just conflicting theories that may or may not be correct. I tend to believe the theory about bypassing the eardrum and directly stimulating the cochlea makes sense, since many animals actively hear and use ultrasonic sounds. Others believe that directly stimulating the brain is making it happen, and of course, it could be harmonics being generated in the bone structure that vary from person to person.
Its almost certainly the pizzoelectric ultrasonic driver that excites the sensor generates many harmonics that some can hear.
 
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definately lots we don't know about the abiity of humans to perceive or detect external stimulii of various sorts (especially at high energy levels) in ways that are perceived to be 'hearing'. thats for sure -- total agreement there. For example, the ability to detect the application of mechanical energy directly to parts of the body (like vibrating the skull at ultrasonic frequencies) is amusing, too. Imagine the variance among individuals, i.e. size of the head, bone density, etc, etc. and maybe those with 5D3s can try pressing their cameras bodies against their heads!

The physiology and mechanics of detecing low levels of true acoustic energy transmitted via air ("hearing") is relatively well understood though, and more closely applies to the phenomena of hearing the sensor being cleaned.


this has been a cool thread, actually, an amusing departure from Dxo scores arguments :D
 
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dlleno said:
definately lots we don't know about the abiity of humans to perceive or detect external stimulii of various sorts (especially at high energy levels) in ways that are perceived to be 'hearing'. thats for sure -- total agreement there. For example, the ability to detect the application of mechanical energy directly to parts of the body (like vibrating the skull at ultrasonic frequencies) is amusing, too. Imagine the variance among individuals, i.e. size of the head, bone density, etc, etc. and maybe those with 5D3s can try pressing their cameras bodies against their heads!

The physiology and mechanics of detecing low levels of true acoustic energy transmitted via air ("hearing") is relatively well understood though, and more closely applies to the phenomena of hearing the sensor being cleaned.


this has been a cool thread, actually, an amusing departure from Dxo scores arguments :D
I'd love to be able to once again to hear even 4K hertz with a hearing aid! My hearing has gone south to the point where a implant is likely to happen. I've tried all of the hearing aids, including one that shifts high frequency sounds into my hearing range. It actually works pretty well at allowing me to hear sounds that I could not otherwise hear, even if the pitch is totally wrong.
Its very frustrating to not be able to understand what people are saying, even with the best hearing aids.
I've looked into the various technologies for implants, bone conduction systems, direct mechanical stimulation of the ear drum, and discussed them with my doctor, who has done a lot of the original research involving many of the alternate methods, they all have drawbacks, and he is happy to discuss pros and cons. So far, only the implants seem to be pretty much the gold standard, but I keep watching for a breakthru.
At this point, I do not want to give up what hearing I have, I only have one ear that has any hearing at all, but the time is coming soon when I will be better off with a implant.
 
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Dude Mt. Spokane thats no good. I've got industrial noise and age related losses that frustrate my wife, but nothing like you or rush limbaugh. these outside-the-box methods are awesome and still emerging, to be sure ,and I certainly hope you are able to find some relief or improvement!

@ Tron/AdamJ lol forgive my reversion back to the technical -- I'd say that if you can't hear it, and you're hearing is ok/normal for your age, , then that is good! Best case is that a teen-aged girl can't hear the sensor cleaning routine :D then you know that no parasitic resonances are happening in the camera!
 
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dlleno said:
TAF said:
I just took some measurements, and my 5D3 sensor cleaning 'sound' is a series of two smooth frequency sweeps from 100 kHz up to about 125 kHz and back down.

So I would conclude you are hearing some structure in the camera vibrating, and not the actual signal.

indeed, given this data, it is probably sympathetic resonance. so the sweeps themselves -- is this a single tone sweep or what is the bandwidth of the signal that sweeps through 100KHz to 125KHz? I take it you were measuring with a wide band audio spectrum analyzer, measuring actual acoustic energy?

Yes, actual acoustic energy.

I am using a device specifically intended for detecting ultrasonic emissions, the Wildlife Acoustics EM-3:

http://www.wildlifeacoustics.com/products/ultrasonic-monitoring/em3

I'm still learning to use the instrument, so I cannot yet ascertain the purity of the sweeping tone. It is fairly narrow on the spectrum display (which is very small), but until I can expand the range (or more correctly reduce the bandwidth so as to enlarge the displayed signal), I can't answer that.

I will post more when I get there.
 
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
People can generally not hear ultrasonic tones, but they can dectect pulse trains at much higher than ultrasonic frequencies. They sound like a chirp.

In the case of the Dukane pinger, you don't even need to hold it against the bone behind your ear to hear the once per second tick; it sound like a fairly loud clock. Nothing special to that, the square wave pulse is obvious, and I suspect it is the end diaphragm of the device popping.

What I find interesting is that once you do put it against the bone behind your ear, and if you listen really carefully in a quiet room, you will start hearing the actual tone that comprises the pulse. Imagine the highest pitch squeak you can, and then picture it getting higher in pitch still. That's what it sound like. It is a very odd experience.

This doesn't really surprise me, though. The human ear is a very efficient acoustic filter, optimized for the frequencies we're supposed to hear. It does a pretty decent job of reducing the 'out of band' signals that we're not really intending to listen for (the text book "Fundamentals of Acoustics" covers the math pretty well; my copy is at the office so I'll post the authors name tomorrow night). But when you bypass the filter and put the input directly into the detector, finding that the little cilia in there vibrate at a much higher frequency than expected isn't shocking to me.

I have a few transducers that will operate out well past 50 kHz. I'll have to try a few sine waves (no impulse to confuse things) and see what I can hear. My cats may not like the experiment (the always sit outside the door to the workshop and meow when I play with ultrasonics), but I think I can confuse them for a few minutes for science.
 
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lol nice work TAF I hope your cats survive the experiment :D indeed, bypassing the natural low pass filter of the ear is comparitively uncharted waters. Here's hoping something useful appears in time for Mt. Spokane! :D
 
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Follow-up:

1. The text book authors are Kinsler and Frey (and two other guys who I have forgotten)

2. My experimental results. Putting the transducer to the bone behind my ear and exciting it with a sine wave, I could hear a tone up to around 50 kHz. I did have to keep increasing the drive level. I won't be repeating that experiment; above 50 kHz or so, all I got was a headache. As for my four cats; the young ones (3 and 4) sat by the door staring curiously, the middle aged one (12) meowed, and the older one (15) slept (I think she's deaf).

3. All this got me to thinking, so I did a literature search. A report from the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America (Corso J. Bone-conduction thresholds for sonic and ultrasonic frequencies. J Acoust Soc Am 35:1738-43, 1963) reports that the traditional human guinea pig (aka college students between 18 and 24 years of age) can hear out to 100 kHz under these conditions.

4. Interestingly enough, the other thing I found was reference to some research where they used an ultrasonic signal which was amplitude modulated, very much like an AM radio (eg: a 100 kHz carrier and a 2 khz voice band signal) and the test subjects heard not the 100 khz signal but the modulation. Very interesting result.

My apologies for the digression. I think you need not concern yourself with a small squeak.

When I learn how best to use the test gear, I'll report back if I find anything interesting about the cleaning sweep.
 
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TAF said:
My cats may not like the experiment (the always sit outside the door to the workshop and meow when I play with ultrasonics), but I think I can confuse them for a few minutes for science.
Nooo poor cats. If there is not such thing as ... cat ear plugs ;D put them in a room far away and close the door.
 
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I have had two 5dIII (returned one) both made 2 high pitch noises when turning it on and off while it said it was cleaning so I would not worry about it. I am also one of those can can tell if a crt is on anywhere in the house. And those damn apple chargers for their laptops drive me crazy with their high pitch noise!
 
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HoneyBadger said:
I have had two 5dIII (returned one) both made 2 high pitch noises when turning it on and off while it said it was cleaning so I would not worry about it. I am also one of those can can tell if a crt is on anywhere in the house. And those damn apple chargers for their laptops drive me crazy with their high pitch noise!

If you are hearing CRTs from NTSC Televisions, you know you can hear 15.7 KHz then :-D Computer monitors generally run well above the threshold of human hearing. For example, a CRT capable of 1024 lines at a 60 Hz refresh rate runs at about 64KHz, which means in order for these devices to be audible you would have to be hearing some subharmonic, which of course is quite possible.

laptop chargers are a different animal. Unlike the CRTs with flyback transformers, these are switching supplies running well above the audio range, However, it is still not uncomon for these to produce some subharmonic mechanical vibration or even a real resonance in the audio range as a side-effect. It wouldn't suprise me if these produce acoustic energy well below the upper threshhold of human hearing.
 
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