6 stop push: 5DsR vs A7R vs A7RII

[gdanmitchell]

The obvious answer is - why do that when you don't have to? It sounds like bracketing, blending and luminosity masks is just just making it harder for yourself if you have a camera that can do it in a single exposure.

Because you lose quality by lifting the shadows by so much. If it's a tiny area it might not matter but it's something that would bug me.

I used to worry about things like what the image looks like at 100% on the screen, being upset, for example, by a bit of noise and so forth.

By I print, on a 24" printer. And if you print your standard is different and far more realistic — namely the quality of the print. Lots of the things that folks see to fret about when they seen them on the screen are completely invisibly even in quite large prints.

A friend was recently in Antarctica for a couple of weeks to teach workshops. He was working with a Nikon D810 and in order to accommodate some rapidly changing light had set the camera to automate the selection of shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. At one point he made a beautiful photograph of towering ice, lovely dusk sky, and a rising moon... only to discover later that the camera had set the ISO to over 12,000!

Yet, he was able to work this image in post and produce a very lovely large print — I know how lovely, since I've seen it in person.

Dan

 

[verysimplejason]

Actually, just closer to what human eyes can perceive. I can still see shadows...

Hi,

It might be that people don´t think to much about how much a stop or two is. So here is an example.

To me this is at the extreme end of what I do. I have done more extremes than this, but I believe it is a good example.

First the straight RAW-file, just levelled, then the finished image, then two crops from each. If this was a more important picture, I would have worked more on the noise reduction, but that is a bit beside the point here.

The finished picture is Exposure: +1.5, Highlights: -100, Shadows: +100, Whites: +55. Colour luminance (blue): -34 and some rudimentary noise reduction. There´s a Looong way to 6 stop.

The problem is the photo become like some CAD generated image...

Have a nice day.

 

[benperrin]

I used to worry about things like what the image looks like at 100% on the screen, being upset, for example, by a bit of noise and so forth.

By I print, on a 24" printer. And if you print your standard is different and far more realistic — namely the quality of the print. Lots of the things that folks see to fret about when they seen them on the screen are completely invisibly even in quite large prints.

A friend was recently in Antarctica for a couple of weeks to teach workshops. He was working with a Nikon D810 and in order to accommodate some rapidly changing light had set the camera to automate the selection of shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. At one point he made a beautiful photograph of towering ice, lovely dusk sky, and a rising moon... only to discover later that the camera had set the ISO to over 12,000!

Yet, he was able to work this image in post and produce a very lovely large print — I know how lovely, since I've seen it in person.

Dan

Dan I hear what you are saying and to a large degree I agree with you. I have also seen noise disappear in prints of 30 inches. Although the noise wasn't that bad to begin with for an iso of about 1000. The problem however is that different people have different levels of tolerance. What is ok for you might be unacceptable for another or vice versa. If I have no other choice it is great to have the option of bringing up the shadows so much. I find satisfaction though at producing an image that can hold up well in a large print or zoomed in on screen. Or at least that's the goal. I still have a long way to go. I suppose it's about chasing perfection. That doesn't have to be anyone else's goal though. Shoot whatever way makes you happy.

 

[StudentOfLight]

Hi Tim,
Something that bothered me was that the A7r-II shot appeared to be taken with a 24/1.4 whereas the Canon 5Ds R shot appeared to be taken with a 35/1.4. Is this just an error in my software or was the same lens used in all the shots? Also, where in the frame was the highlight that you used for assessing the clipping point?

 

[justaCanonuser]

So 5 stops weren't enough, now we have to push 6 stops ? :

Photography is opposite to life: the older you get the more stops of lifting your face may need. But the longer you are into photography, the less you need pushing shadows

 

[timparkin]

Hi Tim,
Something that bothered me was that the A7r-II shot appeared to be taken with a 24/1.4 whereas the Canon 5Ds R shot appeared to be taken with a 35/1.4. Is this just an error in my software or was the same lens used in all the shots? Also, where in the frame was the highlight that you used for assessing the clipping point?

The only thing I can think of is the metabones adapter giving incorrect exif? Highlights taken from non sky area (see shaded areas in raw digger shots)

 

[timparkin]

The obvious answer is - why do that when you don't have to? It sounds like bracketing, blending and luminosity masks is just just making it harder for yourself if you have a camera that can do it in a single exposure.

Because you lose quality by lifting the shadows by so much. If it's a tiny area it might not matter but it's something that would bug me.

True - but if he camera gives acceptable quality. Otherwise I would bracket too..

 

[krisbell]

I agree that Kris's work is impressive, but I'd be interested to know which have been lifted by 6 stops in his portfolio.

I agree too, but everybody here will have to agree that many of these pictures look very "unnatural".

Not quite everybody here will agree!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kristianbell/16946600384
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kristianbell/17184708029

Its one small bugbear I have against some of these "only need to push 6+ stops if you're drunk or useless" comments is that they seem to imply the only use for such a lift is to lighten the entire image - for me it usually means one small patch that for whatever reason I find really distracting.

Yes this is correct. Often a large push is confined to a small area of the image. I do have to ask though; why don't you just bracket exposures and use luminosity masks to lift the shadows in the offending area? I mean I know everyone has their own methodology and your images are certainly better than mine so I'm just asking. I like your post processing you really have some awesome images.

I often do just that, and in principle that is a perfectly good work around. However, it takes up more memory in camera and on my PC, sometimes I forget to bracket or the limited bracketing options of a7r isnt sufficient, or the scene is rapidly changing, plus extra workflow in post etc etc.

 

[benperrin]

I often do just that, and in principle that is a perfectly good work around. However, it takes up more memory in camera and on my PC, sometimes I forget to bracket or the limited bracketing options of a7r isnt sufficient, or the scene is rapidly changing, plus extra workflow in post etc etc.

Fair enough. There are always multiple ways to do things and reasons why a certain method won't work in every situation.

 

[sanj]

I totally agree with the point that option of raising blacks in PART of the image turns out very beneficial.
Also agree with that in some very rare situations it may become necessary to underexpose and hope to fix it in post.

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

 

[benperrin]

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

From my own point of view I certainly don't resist having the option but just because one option is available doesn't mean it is the best one. I still think that bracketing is the best option when available. It is great though for those opportunities when bracketing isn't a viable option.

 

[brad-man]

I totally agree with the point that option of raising blacks in PART of the image turns out very beneficial.
Also agree with that in some very rare situations it may become necessary to underexpose and hope to fix it in post.

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

Well said. Any added flexibility to manipulate an image to better convey the scene is welcome. Whether one chooses to use it is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I find this camera very intriguing.

 

[sanj]

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

From my own point of view I certainly don't resist having the option but just because one option is available doesn't mean it is the best one. I still think that bracketing is the best option when available. It is great though for those opportunities when bracketing isn't a viable option.

Yes of course but is not always possible to bracket shot. Eg. Handheld or moving subject.

 

[Sporgon]

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

From my own point of view I certainly don't resist having the option but just because one option is available doesn't mean it is the best one. I still think that bracketing is the best option when available. It is great though for those opportunities when bracketing isn't a viable option.

Yes of course but is not always possible to bracket shot. Eg. Handheld or moving subject.

Moving subject, true, but nowadays handheld doesn't mean you can't B&B a shot. (Bracket and Blend). With the speed most cameras can shoot at now - 5 fps or faster - and auto align software, it's quite possible. Also HDR software is getting so good at giving 'natural' results......

 

[sanj]

I have never seen how much compensation +100 shadow lift represents. So I played around with a couple of images. It seems to me that it represent around 2.0 to 2.5 stops. Does anyone have more presise info to share?

If what I found is correct, the shadows in the image above is lifted 4-4.5 stops (which was more than I thought).

It is my estimate as well that +100 shadow lift would be more than 4 stops...

 

[Ozarker]

I agree that Kris's work is impressive, but I'd be interested to know which have been lifted by 6 stops in his portfolio.

I agree too, but everybody here will have to agree that many of these pictures look very "unnatural".

Not quite everybody here will agree!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kristianbell/16946600384
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kristianbell/17184708029

Its one small bugbear I have against some of these "only need to push 6+ stops if you're drunk or useless" comments is that they seem to imply the only use for such a lift is to lighten the entire image - for me it usually means one small patch that for whatever reason I find really distracting.

Yes this is correct. Often a large push is confined to a small area of the image. I do have to ask though; why don't you just bracket exposures and use luminosity masks to lift the shadows in the offending area? I mean I know everyone has their own methodology and your images are certainly better than mine so I'm just asking. I like your post processing you really have some awesome images.

I often do just that, and in principle that is a perfectly good work around. However, it takes up more memory in camera and on my PC, sometimes I forget to bracket or the limited bracketing options of a7r isnt sufficient, or the scene is rapidly changing, plus extra workflow in post etc etc.

Beautiful photos at your links sir. Just fantastic!

 

[scyrene]

I totally agree with the point that option of raising blacks in PART of the image turns out very beneficial.
Also agree with that in some very rare situations it may become necessary to underexpose and hope to fix it in post.

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

Well said. Any added flexibility to manipulate an image to better convey the scene is welcome. Whether one chooses to use it is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I find this camera very intriguing.

I don't think people are saying it's not useful to have more options, nor has anyone claimed that Canon images aren't noisier in the shadows when they are brightened. But to trash e.g. the 5Ds because it can't be pushed to extremes while the A7RII can is to take a marginal case and dismiss a generally very good camera based on it. BOTH cameras will do great things in MOST situations. That's the core point I think.

 

[sanj]

I totally agree with the point that option of raising blacks in PART of the image turns out very beneficial.
Also agree with that in some very rare situations it may become necessary to underexpose and hope to fix it in post.

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

Well said. Any added flexibility to manipulate an image to better convey the scene is welcome. Whether one chooses to use it is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I find this camera very intriguing.

I don't think people are saying it's not useful to have more options, nor has anyone claimed that Canon images aren't noisier in the shadows when they are brightened. But to trash e.g. the 5Ds because it can't be pushed to extremes while the A7RII can is to take a marginal case and dismiss a generally very good camera based on it. BOTH cameras will do great things in MOST situations. That's the core point I think.

Agree with you totally on everything except the first part. You may want to re read the thread. I will stay with Canon because I find it a very robust and trustworthy camera.

 

[scyrene]

I totally agree with the point that option of raising blacks in PART of the image turns out very beneficial.
Also agree with that in some very rare situations it may become necessary to underexpose and hope to fix it in post.

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

Well said. Any added flexibility to manipulate an image to better convey the scene is welcome. Whether one chooses to use it is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I find this camera very intriguing.

I don't think people are saying it's not useful to have more options, nor has anyone claimed that Canon images aren't noisier in the shadows when they are brightened. But to trash e.g. the 5Ds because it can't be pushed to extremes while the A7RII can is to take a marginal case and dismiss a generally very good camera based on it. BOTH cameras will do great things in MOST situations. That's the core point I think.

Agree with you totally on everything except the first part. You may want to re read the thread. I will stay with Canon because I find it a very robust and trustworthy camera.

Lol, I guess I could have added more disclaimers

 

[bholliman]

I dont understand why people resist the benefits of having the option of raising blacks without creating too much noise. The only explanation I can come up with is that Canon sensors don't do this best and this is a Canon forum.

I'm certainly in favor of anything that provides more options. But, I can't recall ever having to lift shadows 6 stops in any of my keeper shots over the past 5 years.