A New EOS Pro Body With 46mp Next Month? [CR1]

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Remember the rumored price range is eight to nine THOUSAND. You could pick up a D810 and 14-24mm f/2.8 for six grand, and pocket the extra two grand.

If this rumor is true, then this definitely is not a D800 series competitor. If anything, given the price, this sounds more along the lines of one of those Canon medium format rumors than anything...price wise it sounds like it would compete with the Pentax MFDs.

I was going to say at that price I might as well go for the Pentax 645z and a few lenses. For me high res is always on a tripod with LV focus. A 1D series body would have little benefit to me.

Aye, very true. If I wanted to get the maximum quality at that price range, the 645z would be a far superior option. I mean, that's $8500? Granted, you would have to buy lenses, so it would be more costly, but the IQ for things like landscapes would be far superior. Medium format is often used in studio and architectural photography as well.

Dunno, seems like Canon is really pushing the price envelope these days. They may have had it made in the past at $7999, but there are so many high quality options for far less than nine grand these days. Were assuming such a camera would have competitive DR as well...if it is still just Canon's "same old" sensor tech, the 645z seems like such a much better deal (even if you have to buy lenses), and the D810 offers a vastly cheaper option (or similar price including the cost of a lens or two).

Yeah for 8k-9k it will have to offer a ton. It can't just be a 1Ds3 with 46MP. That would sink like a tank.
It would need like 10fps at 46MP FF mode and better video than the 1DC all around every which way and Exmor-like low ISO DR. If it managed all of that then it certainly could justify 8k-9k. That would be the best DSLR ever made.

If it has like 5fps, 46MP, same old DR, same video as the 7D2 and they want 8k for it.... I guess you can refer to the old "a fool and their money are quickly parted". You could basically do arguably rather better than that (weighing 3 stops of DR a lot more than the 36 to 46MP jump) with a D810 for a fraction of the price.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I'd like to take the time to understand (as best I can) why Canon is "stuck" in it's current position.

It seems that they have calculated that going to a new sensor production facility would cost a ton of money and since their sales are not slagging off badly and the fanboys are lapping up every sensor they release no matter what, why spend the money on the new sensor production? They seem to not fear the loss of any brand prestige or user base angst at all for the long term and just see the sales holding up reasonably well (if maybe not nearly what they could be) while not having to put a truly gigantic expenditure on the books. They figure their lens lineup and UI is enough.

If the 5D4 and next 1 series arrive with the same old sensors and no 4k and so on then it's clear that nothing but having everyone say forget and their sales totally tanking will ever get us to those features.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Yeah diffraction is not a sudden hard stop.

Also, what is wrong with making use of more res at wider than f/8?? I mean a lot of wildlife can be shot, when distant, at f/2.8 even and certainly f/5.6 and even on his sudden hard stop chart, you can see how many more MP can be supported.

If this were true, you'd expect the electronics/camera manufacturers to justify their 20-22mpixel mantra (I like that phrase, thanks to whomever first wrote that in this thread) based on it.

The fact is, optical physics does not work in a 1/r manner as everyone who writes these kinds of articles assumes. It's for this reason that diffraction limits come into play in current sensor sizes after f/11 and not sooner as would be expected from the formula.

Yes, you can clearly see the effects of "something" at f/22 and f/32 in the writer's example. But I can't be certain it's diffraction limiting or if it's really optical design. Why? Because the 5D MkII sensor is good for critical resolution thru f/16 (the sensor is only good for 79lpmm). I wouldn't expect to see diffraction limited images look like that (I say this after looking at resolution results from literally hundreds of lenses of all kinds and makes).

...Read this article (google translated) to understand why it doesn't make sense to go much higher than 30-something megapixels on full frame:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FWie-viele-Megapixel-verkraftet-eine-Kamera&edit-text=&act=url

It's the laws of optics you won't be able to break.

note: full frame translates to small image in the article because the german word for 24x36 is also Kleinbild.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Potential Layered sensor...
1. I assume Canon counts their pixels spatially, i.e. not 46/(3 layers) = 15.3, or 46/(5 layers) = 9.2
2. 46 spatial pixels then no more AA filter. You can just pixel bin for video
3. No more color noise!
4. 5 Layers.. BGYM(IR)?????

High MP...
I hope that the new TS-E lenses 60(45) and 135(90) would be launched in conjunction with a high megapixel body. Shift stitch with the new TS-E lenses gives you an effective medium format digital sized sensor and all the pixels to match. Combined with accurate color that would be ideal for Landscape/Studio work. An EF 11-24mm USM with autofocus would be nice though.

15.3MP foveon-style still needs an AA filter on FF for sure

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

A high MP body is a good idea, but if Canon cannot compete in dynamic range at base ISO I think it's better to wait until they can.

+1

 

[StudentOfLight]

Yeah diffraction is not a sudden hard stop.

Also, what is wrong with making use of more res at wider than f/8?? I mean a lot of wildlife can be shot, when distant, at f/2.8 even and certainly f/5.6 and even on his sudden hard stop chart, you can see how many more MP can be supported.

If this were true, you'd expect the electronics/camera manufacturers to justify their 20-22mpixel mantra (I like that phrase, thanks to whomever first wrote that in this thread) based on it.

The fact is, optical physics does not work in a 1/r manner as everyone who writes these kinds of articles assumes. It's for this reason that diffraction limits come into play in current sensor sizes after f/11 and not sooner as would be expected from the formula.

Yes, you can clearly see the effects of "something" at f/22 and f/32 in the writer's example. But I can't be certain it's diffraction limiting or if it's really optical design. Why? Because the 5D MkII sensor is good for critical resolution thru f/16 (the sensor is only good for 79lpmm). I wouldn't expect to see diffraction limited images look like that (I say this after looking at resolution results from literally hundreds of lenses of all kinds and makes).

...Read this article (google translated) to understand why it doesn't make sense to go much higher than 30-something megapixels on full frame:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.photoscala.de%2FArtikel%2FWie-viele-Megapixel-verkraftet-eine-Kamera&edit-text=&act=url

It's the laws of optics you won't be able to break.

note: full frame translates to small image in the article because the german word for 24x36 is also Kleinbild.

Yes, you could also focus bracket with an optimum aperture for resolving (e.g. f/4). Hopefully the theoretical camera will have in-camera focus-bracketing option, taking into account focal length and focus distance. I'd design it to start from lens position then either rack to infinity or rack to MFD.
(Is that how it works with Magic Lantern??? Downloaded it, but haven't installed yet. )

 

[StudentOfLight]

Potential Layered sensor...
1. I assume Canon counts their pixels spatially, i.e. not 46/(3 layers) = 15.3, or 46/(5 layers) = 9.2
2. 46 spatial pixels then no more AA filter. You can just pixel bin for video
3. No more color noise!
4. 5 Layers.. BGYM(IR)?????

High MP...
I hope that the new TS-E lenses 60(45) and 135(90) would be launched in conjunction with a high megapixel body. Shift stitch with the new TS-E lenses gives you an effective medium format digital sized sensor and all the pixels to match. Combined with accurate color that would be ideal for Landscape/Studio work. An EF 11-24mm USM with autofocus would be nice though.

15.3MP foveon-style still needs an AA filter on FF for sure

Yes 15.3MP could definitely use an AA filter, but I was hoping it would be:

46MP x (5 layers) = 230 (Five-eon-style)
46MP x (3 layers) = 138 (Three-veon-style)

 

[Dantana]

Too much MP for my taste.

Sounds just about right for landscapes. If only it has the DR...

Completely agree, totally.

This would be a Pro Body, main competitors being the Phase One IQ250, Pentax 645z & Haselblad H5D, basically anything with the Sony 50MP CMOS Sensor in it (and you can bet good money that Sony are about to drop that Sensor into their own body, sooner not later), is that worth competing with ?? I think so, I hope Canon does as well.

Price ??, about right, Competes well with the price of the 645z, certainly competes more than well with the Phase One & Haselblad (Sony will do it for 1/3 the price, but that have zero Lenses to match without Zeiss).

Will it happen, no idea, but I certainly hope so.

It would have to have a large sensor to really compete, though. Put a 50mp FF and 50mp 44x33mm MF head to head, and the MF is going to win. The Sony 50mp MF in the backs or MF cameras from any one of those companies would pulverize a Canon 50mp FF in any IQ comparisons. Again, that boils down to equivalence...more total light for a given subject framing, better IQ. Pixel counts really wouldn't matter.

I guess it depends on how you define "win." I won't argue with you that a medium format camera of the same resolution won't turn out better images than a 35mm full frame. But if the image quality was good enough, something better than what is out there in the rest of the 35mm world but not quite up to the level of modern medium format, some would consider that a win. You'd have a much more portable kit with many more lens options the you would have with medium format, especially if you were already invested in high end EF glass.

That being said, it's not something that will end up in my bag, unless it's ten years from now on eBay.

 

[mkabi]

It would need like 10fps at 46MP FF mode and better video than the 1DC all around every which way and Exmor-like low ISO DR. If it managed all of that then it certainly could justify 8k-9k. That would be the best DSLR ever made.

Not going to happen. Keep dreaming... you have totally lost it... 46MP alone is already dreaming... then everything else you ask as well... Might as well throw all the existing 1DX and 1DC in the thrash compacter and sell this camera alone. Do you think Canon plans on throwing its existing cameras (the ones in their inventory) like the 1DX and the 1DC in the thrash? Do you think that they are going to reduce the price of the 1DX or 1DC to the point that its close to or as affordable as the 5DIII? You can find the 1DsIV for $4500-$5000 still... so without dreaming... what do you think will really happen, given the past and present tech.?

Even still, with the specs that you are dreaming about it would be the best DSLR ever made, until someone else comes up with something better. Then you guys will be b!tching about something else.

 

[StudentOfLight]

Yeah for 8k-9k it will have to offer a ton. It can't just be a 1Ds3 with 46MP. That would sink like a tank.
It would need like 10fps at 46MP FF mode and better video than the 1DC all around every which way and Exmor-like low ISO DR. If it managed all of that then it certainly could justify 8k-9k. That would be the best DSLR ever made.

If it has like 5fps, 46MP, same old DR, same video as the 7D2 and they want 8k for it.... I guess you can refer to the old "a fool and their money are quickly parted". You could basically do arguably rather better than that (weighing 3 stops of DR a lot more than the 36 to 46MP jump) with a D810 for a fraction of the price.

I think you've cracked this case wide open. It sounds like you are describing a "1D-C Mark-II"

For a brief time the 1D-C offered the novelty of 4K video in a digital stills camera. If you use a 3:2 aspect ratio then a full frame 46MP (non-foveon) is about 8200x wide... cropped 1.3x for (S35 coverage) gives you 6.3K video. With DPAF and improved DR a 1D-C Mark-II it could again offer something novel to those who can budget for it. To shoot 6K video at 24p I'm guessing it would have the internals to do at least 8fps.

As 4K is becoming more mainstream the 1D-C (at its price-point) is becoming more and more irrelevant. With the price drops on the 1D-C it falls directly into a 9-10K price bracket so a camera like "this" could reasonably replace it and with improved video technology. (7D-II might still have some video tricks which haven't been uncovered yet)

Anyway, this would probably signal a true separation between the 1D-C line and the 1D-X line, which on the other hand would probably prioritize higher-fps and better-low-light-performance over increased-resolution. So the "1Dc Mark-II" might be a spiritual successor to the 1Ds Mark-III (from a stills perspective) and less pricey successor to the 1Dc (from a video perspective).

What do you think?

 

[mkabi]

For a brief time the 1D-C offered the novelty of 4K video in a digital stills camera. If you use a 3:2 aspect ratio then a full frame 46MP (non-foveon) is about 8200x wide... cropped 1.3x for (S35 coverage) gives you 6.3K video. With DPAF and improved DR a 1D-C Mark-II it could again offer something novel to those who can budget for it. To shoot 6K video at 24p I'm guessing it would have the internals to do at least 8fps.

As 4K is becoming more mainstream the 1D-C (at its price-point) is becoming more and more irrelevant. With the price drops on the 1D-C it falls directly into a 9-10K price bracket so a camera like "this" could reasonably replace it and with improved video technology. (7D-II might still have some video tricks which haven't been uncovered yet)

Anyway, this would probably signal a true separation between the 1D-C line and the 1D-X line, which on the other hand would probably prioritize higher-fps and better-low-light-performance over increased-resolution. So the "1Dc Mark-II" might be a spiritual successor to the 1Ds Mark-III (from a stills perspective) and less pricey successor to the 1Dc (from a video perspective).

What do you think?

+1 on the 6K video.
Now that will be something that will compete along side what Kinefinity/RED offers.

 

[jeffa4444]

At this stage take this rumor with a pinch of salt. Canon has senior camera, lens and sensor engineers at Photokina asking pro photographers what they like and dislike about existing cameras and lenses in three different groups. You dont do that with the associated cost if your about to launch a camera in a month. That said a camera with a 45MP sensor was being tested in 2013 but then cameras can be tested that dont make production or get major changes.

 

[waving_odd]

New speculations over there at FM!!!

[quote author=Fred Miranda]
Canon is already using Sony's 1" sensor. Most medium format players are using Sony's 50MP medium format CMOS sensor on their cameras. Nikon has been using Sony's FF CMOS sensor.
There are rumors that Sony has developed a higher MP FF sensor soon to be released. (~46MP)

So, there is a possibility that Canon may include Sony's newest sensor on their flagship body and then trickle it down to consumer models.

If you can't beat them, join them!
[/quote]

[quote author=Fred Miranda]
Read this post: (SR5)
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/?s=No+other+new+camera+from+Sony

It mentions a Sony FF CMOS 46MP sensor in January...
[/quote]

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Potential Layered sensor...
1. I assume Canon counts their pixels spatially, i.e. not 46/(3 layers) = 15.3, or 46/(5 layers) = 9.2
2. 46 spatial pixels then no more AA filter. You can just pixel bin for video
3. No more color noise!
4. 5 Layers.. BGYM(IR)?????

High MP...
I hope that the new TS-E lenses 60(45) and 135(90) would be launched in conjunction with a high megapixel body. Shift stitch with the new TS-E lenses gives you an effective medium format digital sized sensor and all the pixels to match. Combined with accurate color that would be ideal for Landscape/Studio work. An EF 11-24mm USM with autofocus would be nice though.

15.3MP foveon-style still needs an AA filter on FF for sure

Yes 15.3MP could definitely use an AA filter, but I was hoping it would be:


46MP x (3 layers) = 138 (Three-veon-style)

well that would interesting ;D

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

It would need like 10fps at 46MP FF mode and better video than the 1DC all around every which way and Exmor-like low ISO DR. If it managed all of that then it certainly could justify 8k-9k. That would be the best DSLR ever made.

Not going to happen. Keep dreaming... you have totally lost it... 46MP alone is already dreaming... then everything else you ask as well... Might as well throw all the existing 1DX and 1DC in the thrash compacter and sell this camera alone. Do you think Canon plans on throwing its existing cameras (the ones in their inventory) like the 1DX and the 1DC in the thrash? Do you think that they are going to reduce the price of the 1DX or 1DC to the point that its close to or as affordable as the 5DIII? You can find the 1DsIV for $4500-$5000 still... so without dreaming... what do you think will really happen, given the past and present tech.?

Even still, with the specs that you are dreaming about it would be the best DSLR ever made, until someone else comes up with something better. Then you guys will be b!tching about something else.

Maybe so, but who would buy a 36MP, non-Exmor DR, 5fps, worse than 1DC video, bulky 1 series cam for $9000 when you could get the same and better for a fraction of that price from other brands???

Or even say it has exmor DR, why pay $9000 for a bulky 36MP exmor-quality 5fps 1080p camera when you get the same thing for Nikon for like what $2500 or something? You can buy the D810 and three key lenses AND keep your Canon lenses and perhaps current Canon body and still have spent no more than after selling your current Canon body and adding the new $9000 1DsX.

You can get an A7S+Ninja 4k recorder+metabones adapter for Canon lenses+Nikon D810+two Nikon lenses for $9000! So why on Earth would you spend $9000 for a bulky 1DsX that gives 36MP with DR but 5fps and no 4k video?

You can get an A7S+Ninja 4k recorder+A7R+metabones adapter for Canon lenses for like $7000. $2000 less.

This thing either needs to be with the spec I list or forget it.

And at some point the 1DX and 1DC have to go to the trash. I mean do they still sell the D30 and 1D as their top models or are they in the trash? The current stuff makes those look silly. (not that using the term "in the trash" is how I'd have chosen to put it, since they still take pictures and people can get good use out of stuff that is not the latest)

And the 1DC is really about to make zero sense. A7S+Ninja4k costs half the price and gives better quality. The new SOny videocamera blows away the 1DC for video and is the same price.

 

[kaihp]

At this stage take this rumor with a pinch of salt. Canon has senior camera, lens and sensor engineers at Photokina asking pro photographers what they like and dislike about existing cameras and lenses in three different groups. You dont do that with the associated cost if your about to launch a camera in a month.

Surely they can and will do that (talking to customers about what they like/dislike and launch a new body in 1 month).

My point is that Canon is most likely to have multiple generations of camera bodies under development at the same time, considering the product development time vs the launch cadence, so the camera they would be about to launch would not the one they are taking input on.

 

[daniela]

Back from Photokina. The show was interesting, third party manufacturers announced a lot of accessories that will be helpful in future. New lenses (Sigma) e.g. One think to criticice: Each second person who talks about the 7DII praises the IQ of this cam. I asked some of them, how many shots they took with this new Cam. But NO one did. They just looked at a few pictures, release in the www... :
Some rumors from US and asian visitors: In the near and far next month there will be some new bodies announced. A mid priced competitor to the D810 with an much better AF system and a new sensor (no recycled one with a little bit more MP). Low light noise will be improved. And an high end body with superior features and an much higher price than the 1Dx. No details on exact improvements. But it will be an stellar successor to the 1Dx. Two Asians rumored that there will be an separation of the high end line, features like the current 1DX and another body, focussing on IQ.
And that there is an entry FF camera with an extended AF system in development, around 20MP, more AF points... maybe an 6D successor, focused on AF system, as the IQ is very good.
Other brands will release new technology too: Sony will get an big competitor in the next years. They realised that their lens line is a big weakness. New highend Sensors are "in the wild" testing, and will be released soon. Nikon tries to pimp up the D7100.

 

[plam_1980]

I don't know if someone already posted this, but according to this site:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-no-other-new-camera-from-sony-at-photokina-sr5-new-generation-sensor-and-cameras-release-in-january/

"(SR5) Sony is preparing a BIG event in January! They will release a complete new generation of cameras with a new generation sensor. Cameras have those two features:
1) Very high resolution and dynamic range. One of them is a 46 megapixel FF sensor.
2) Very fast AF speed

I know it’s strange they did not announce those at Photokina. But that it is. I Thank All trusted sources for the info they shared the last couple of weeks. I hope you sources can help me to feed SAR readers with some reliable rumor about the next generation cameras coming in January!

-

A couple of notes: January announcement is 100% correct as it really got confirmed by highly trusted sources. So trust me on this"

I really hope Canon will not lag behind and this new EOS body becomes a fact

 

[Mitch.Conner]

I don't know if someone already posted this, but according to this site:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-no-other-new-camera-from-sony-at-photokina-sr5-new-generation-sensor-and-cameras-release-in-january/

"(SR5) Sony is preparing a BIG event in January! They will release a complete new generation of cameras with a new generation sensor. Cameras have those two features:
1) Very high resolution and dynamic range. One of them is a 46 megapixel FF sensor.
2) Very fast AF speed

I know it’s strange they did not announce those at Photokina. But that it is. I Thank All trusted sources for the info they shared the last couple of weeks. I hope you sources can help me to feed SAR readers with some reliable rumor about the next generation cameras coming in January!

-

A couple of notes: January announcement is 100% correct as it really got confirmed by highly trusted sources. So trust me on this"

I really hope Canon will not lag behind and this new EOS body becomes a fact

Does this mean Canon might be using a Sony sensor in this new rumored camera?

 

[tomscott]

I really like the Sony cameras. Not just the IQ but the form and the way they work.

I am going traveling for 5 months through South america and doing a stint in the Amazon. My Canon gear 5DMKIII 24-105mm L and 70-300mm L is perfect for the trip but weighs 3kg when you add the rest of my gear its a lot and its not exactly discrete. So I was looking at buying a smaller system, as I already have the Nex5n and really like it Sony was the obvious choice.

But try swapping out your lenses… The camera bodies are great and weigh nothing but the zeiss lenses don't come close to the canon counterparts. Especially the Zooms not so much the primes, first choice was the A7 because the 24mp is more than enough for me, but the kit lens… soft, the 24-70 F4 Zeiss, from samples I've seen shouldn't be waring that badge for £1000!! The 70-200mm F4 also not a bad lens but not stellar, also over £1000! To replace for a travel system you need £3000 and the lenses are bang middle of the road. Only benefit is the weight the whole kit, weighs in at 1.5kgs the A7 and 24-70mm weighs less than the 5DMKIII body alone then the 24-105mm is another 670g. So half the weight.

Putting a metabones adapter on for me is pointless because they aren't reliable and the AF is so slow its unusable for anything but static subjects.

Instead of focusing on a high MP camera for 9k that is in a difficult competition they should just go all out and add the very best of EOS to a FF mirrorless and steal the whole market. Stick the 6D or 5DMKIII sensor in a small body with a good EVF mid range performance and the ability to use EF lenses and it will sell like hotcakes take the whole market. Thats where the money is for Canon not in a high MP body imo. Sell it for £1500 no brainer for a lot of people.

I love my 5DMKIII for commercial work, because it works and the IQ is great but when I'm shooting for myself the weight really is a pain!!! Canon have nothing that is portable, the 100D, EOS M 700D etc nice little cameras but that sensor is just awful it was poor when it was announced 5 years ago and is currently not competitive the 20.2mp is a little better but not good, pretty much everything on the market has better IQ and noise performance. The 6D, great camera crippled by AF not much smaller than the 5DMKIII and like 150g less weight, IMO pointless swapping out a 5DMKIII for one.

You are all saying Canon aren't in the position with new sensor tech but the 18mp, 20mp and 22mp FF sensors only reside in one camera respectively, which is bad economy surely? They have milked that 18mp sensor and it was poor so why not milk the better sensors? stick them in some other cameras.

I might be in the minority, but at least then there is a little bit of evolution in the canon camp and more options for canon users that want to stay in the camp.