More Full Frame Mirrorless Talk, Maybe Some Surprises? [CR1]

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
705
166
stevelee said:
BillB said:
Be that as it may, they decided to go with "crippled" 4K and decent 1080.

What do people mean by crippled 4K? Or do they know what they mean, rather than just passing along something they saw on them interwebs?

They don’t like the compression method, or it’s really only 3.7K, or it won’t open in their video editor because of faulty data, or every other byte is 00101101 or something, or what?

I don’t know whether to write them off as ignorant complainers or conspiracy nuts, or if there is some technical matter I might be interested to know, with some kernel of truth in what they say.

---

To me, "Crippled 4K" is ANY 4K camera that does NOT support a full-standard DCI (Digital Cinema Iniiatives) 1.89:1 aspect ratio 4096 by 2160 pixels at 60 fps at 10 bits or above per colour channel RAW format. Right Now Only the Canon C200, C300, C700, Arri, Sony F55/F65/Venice, Panasonic Varicam and Red cameras when the appropriate BIOS/Firmware is installed or when you attach a higher end Codex/Atmos SDI recorder to the backs can capture at that specification.

The Canon M50 is NOT CRIPPLED in terms of general consumer-use 4k imagery! it's actually HOW you shoot on it that will make ALL the difference! I suggest you set the shutter on the Canon M50 to 1/48th of a second. Set your ISO to 1600 and use an 85mm Canon or Art Sigma series prime using looser/wider shots and put your iris at F4 and use the highest 4K bitrate possible and you are Good to Go!

Load that 24 fps 4K Canon M50 footage into BlackMagic Resolve and Boost your shadows by 10% to 15%, increase midtones by 5% to 10%, REDUCE your highlights by 5% to 10% to retrieve details in clouds and sky, increase contrast by between 5% to 15% to your taste and FINALLY boost your saturation by about 10% to your taste....As a last item, depending upon your aesthetics, I would usually add a 1.5 pixel to 2 pixel wide UNSHARP MASK to sharpen the edges of on-screen objects. -- But that is of course YOUR TASTE -- You don't HAVE TO DO IT --- but it WILL make your footage SEEM sharper! NOW you have truly cinematic footage on ANY ONE of your Canon DSLR's!

The Canon M50's 4K imagery is PERFECTLY FINE for vlogs and low-budget filmmaking and documentary production if you can shoot at 1/48th of a shutter speed on a higher end 50mm or 85mm prime lens at around F4!

ONE KEY THING if you are shooting at dusk or at lower light levels....ADD MORE DIFFUSE FILL LIGHT !!!! Tape four or more of the BRIGHT WHITE LED BARS you can buy at any Dollar Plus store to a broomstick and FILL IN your onset lighting! Put diffusion spun and/or colour correction gels on the cheap LED's if you have to! That doesn't cost more than $25 for the dollar-store LED light bars and the extra packs of Double-A batteries!

See our examples below of what we did in JUST cropping and colour correction for a typical 4k production (we centre cropped for storage space and lens usage reasons!)
 

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bergstrom

Photographer
Feb 23, 2015
254
121
I just want a canon mirrorless full frame with ef mount that will compete with the sony a7iii. If they're not making that, then I'm not interested.
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
HarryFilm said:
To me, "Crippled 4K" is ANY 4K camera that does NOT support a full-standard DCI (Digital Cinema Iniiatives) 1.89:1 aspect ratio 4096 by 2160 pixels at 60 fps at 10 bits or above per colour channel RAW format. Right Now Only the Canon C200, C300, C700, Arri, Sony F55/F65/Venice, Panasonic Varicam and Red cameras when the appropriate BIOS/Firmware is installed or when you attach a higher end Codex/Atmos SDI recorder to the backs can capture at that specification.

The Canon M50 is NOT CRIPPLED...
heh
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
705
166
fullstop said:
sorry, but i don't like the look of either image.

---

If you right-click (if using MS Windows) and select "View Image" from the popup menu you will be able to see the ENTIRE full resolution image of both video frames. The differences in sharpness and general detail between the upper and lower photos is quite remarkable. This is due to Canon cameras filming in "Log Mode" (depending upon model since the M50 doesn't have true logarithmic stretching like the Canon 1Dc) which REQUIRES you to do colour grading BEFORE you upload footage to Youtube or Vimeo.

You just can't take un-retouched imagery from the M50 or 1Dc or 1Dx or 5D cameras and upload them right after shooting! The images just look dull and dark grey! YOU MUST colour grade using a program like BM Resolve OR use the simple level boosts I described earlier in your Adobe Premiere or FCP video editors.

Some people have complained my grades are too saturated but in my personal opinion, think the high colour saturation works better for the type of industrial footage we record. The head honchos complained the videos looked DULL when I did the Hollywood-style "Filmic Look" so I gave them what they wanted. Highly sharp, well saturated video! This is to each person's tastes and what works for me will NOT work for YOU! ....BUT....keep saving colour grading templates and COMPARE THEM until you find a look you like!

In the bottom photo, when you do a 100% full resolution view, you can still see the VERY THIN POWERLINES running across ABOVE the two bridges. That shows just how SHARP almost ANY Canon camera is in terms of absolute resolving power!
And these examples are simple VIDEO FRAME GRABS which are nowhere NEAR what a still photo's sharpness and overall image quality from the same camera would have been! In fact, I've been thinking that for fast-action sports and action imagery, my 4k frame grabs running at 24 fps or 60 fps from various Canons are good enough for WEB-oriented prints if properly colour graded! I can CHOOSE the frames I want and just upload my favourites!

A Canon M50 would make a GREAT sports shooter camera that works for web-use-only 24 fps video frame grabs! If you resize your 4k images DOWN to the widely used 1920 by 1080 pixel windows used on most of today's consumer monitors and TV screens, and SHARPEN the image after colour grading, there is a perfect opportunity to get the BEST well-timed frame since your images are from a 24 fps source!

The general point I am trying to make is that the Canon M50 is NOT a truly "Crippled 4K" camera! It is PERFECT for the filmmaker student, vlogger and high school newspaper photographer who needs an ALMOST-professional camera with good-enough 4k Video and decent-quality stills. AND....since the majority of buyers will be Mom/Dad buying it for Junior's Birthday/Christmas present and/or gifted by Grandma/Grandpa for their off-to-college film student grandkids, I think Canon will sell a lot of these! I think it will encroach on the sales of all Rebel series within the next 6 months! 4k for that under-1k U.S. kit-price? What a Deal!

Anyways...Canon has at least FIVE late-stage test camera platforms in-the-wild right now based upon my rumour mill sources...by Photokina time, probably TWO will have been introduced! and ONE will be Fully 4k Mirrorless and LIKELY at a full 10-bits 60 fps video and 10 fps+ full-resolution 24 megapixel+ stills burst rate!
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
705
166
3kramd5 said:
fullstop said:
sorry, but i don't like the look of either image.

The original, however, is better.

---

While I actually do agree with your comment about the top image being "better" in terms of it having a more filmic look, the head honchos wanted it "Bright and Punchy" and on a large 200 inch Sony projector it actually looks pretty good because the project darkens the image a bit "reviving" that filmic look!

After that, one this that REALLY IMPRESSED ME was that on the Canon 1Dc, the 5Dmk4, 1Dxmk2 and the M50 and even the Rebel series, I definitely note how much RESOLVING POWER those cameras have! The fact, that you can even see the VERY THIN power lines, read minute details such as small text, and even basic lighting levels that can be stretched quite nicely in post-production signifies just how far video has come on DSLR-like cameras in the last five years!

If you're on a budget, then the M50 is fine for you! Just remember to light well and use a DECENT PRIME LENS (I personally like the Sigma Art Series for their price and sharpness!). For higher budget video, then the C200/300 and C700 DEFINITELY can compete with anything Sony, Panasonic, Fuji or Arri has. (We have lots of Sony and Arri gear too!)

Of course, out of the Canon and OTHER brand cameras noted above I actually like the Canon C700 best because it's cheaper than the Arri, it has well-priced cinema primes AND I get my 60 fps DCI 4k in GLOBAL SHUTTER MODE which is a very big deal for me! At 60 fps, I shoot at 120th/sec for shutter speed to get SHARP action shots and allows me to get 4K frame grabs for print and web!
 

Uneternal

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 25, 2016
65
38
1. We’re told that a full frame mirrorless will be coming in September.

No big news. Since that is the only big exhibition before Xmas sale, it's the very last option to keep customers from jumping on the Sony wagon.

2. Canon’s new mirrorless will NOT be part of the EOS system, the focus will be on video.

The last thing Canon would do is sacrifice their super expensive cinema EOS range. And also not the marketing name EOS. That would be a really silly move.

3. Think EOS 5D Mark IV, but mirrorless.

Thats also nothing new. Since years Canon is using old tech and puts it in newer, lower tier cameras (e.g. 6D which was essentially a 5D2).

4. 4K @ 30/25/24 FPS

You don't need to be a genius to figure Canon would not put a 4K 60p mode and also not an outdated HD mode again. Especially since they already have one 4K camera out.
 

tarntyke

Triumph of enthusiasm over ability
Apr 15, 2015
42
4
United Kingdom
My usually unreliable source has sent me some images of a prototype of the next FF mirrorless camera. It may be used in BBC's 4K/uhd coverage of the World Cup, so look out for it. The final version will be released on completion of a working codec by HarryFilm. My printout of the email was smudged. The release looks like 31st February, but the year was illegible.
 

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melgross

EOS RP
Nov 2, 2016
704
461
Durf said:
Talys said:
transpo1 said:
What this tells me is, although Canon and Nikon still rule among professional photographers, they are seeing steep competition from Sony, with the A7III being the #1 Top Seller at B&H. The video competition from the GH5/s line must be taking a toll as well.

Could that possibly be attributed to the A73 being the latest release? ::)

By the way Sony A7R3 and A73 were discounted very shortly after release too; it was just a disguised discount. You had to bring something to trade in. My friend took a very old -- and very broken, as in cracked -- EFS kit lens and got $300 off of his A7R3 a couple months after launch; a similar offer was made a month or two after A73 (any ILC body or lens), with increasing rebates for A73, A7R3, A9.

Personally I don't believe that a discount automatically means the camera is not selling well, it could actually be that they want them to sell even better and to get as many in to peoples hands as possible. What better way is there to get more customers using a product and to prepare them for possibly wanting to upgrade to the next "better features and improved version"?

In my opinion the M50 is just a baby and a teaser to what's coming and that most people buying it will happily pay a little more for a better version (M60) or even a way more expensive FF mirror-less down the road.

It’s a good indicator. And the bigger the discount, the worse sales are.
 

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
1,897
685
Davidson, NC
Depends upon many things. Discounts are generally taken into account in choosing list prices.

But, yes, when discounts get into the 50% range, that can mean sales have not been great. Much below that, and you can't tell. Some of that varies by industry. Grocers often have BOGO.
 

CanonFanBoy

Purple
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,349
3,688
Irving, Texas
unfocused said:
Is it too much to hope that the lying b.s. infused Harry has been reborn as someone who actually has something positive to contribute?

"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." Are you really going to allow yourself to get lured in? ;)
 

CanonFanBoy

Purple
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,349
3,688
Irving, Texas
melgross said:
Durf said:
Talys said:
transpo1 said:
What this tells me is, although Canon and Nikon still rule among professional photographers, they are seeing steep competition from Sony, with the A7III being the #1 Top Seller at B&H. The video competition from the GH5/s line must be taking a toll as well.

Could that possibly be attributed to the A73 being the latest release? ::)

By the way Sony A7R3 and A73 were discounted very shortly after release too; it was just a disguised discount. You had to bring something to trade in. My friend took a very old -- and very broken, as in cracked -- EFS kit lens and got $300 off of his A7R3 a couple months after launch; a similar offer was made a month or two after A73 (any ILC body or lens), with increasing rebates for A73, A7R3, A9.

Personally I don't believe that a discount automatically means the camera is not selling well, it could actually be that they want them to sell even better and to get as many in to peoples hands as possible. What better way is there to get more customers using a product and to prepare them for possibly wanting to upgrade to the next "better features and improved version"?

In my opinion the M50 is just a baby and a teaser to what's coming and that most people buying it will happily pay a little more for a better version (M60) or even a way more expensive FF mirror-less down the road.

It’s a good indicator. And the bigger the discount, the worse sales are.

Marketing: "Let's arbitrarily set the MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price) at $3,600. The gearheads will jump all over it for a couple of months. Then as initial excitement calms, we can offer a rebate so the consumer feels like he was smart for waiting. Then after the excitement calms a little more, we can allow the retailers to cut the price a little AND we can offer rebates. By then people will feel real smart about waiting. In this way we can grab a little money beyond our projected profit margin."

"And let's remove the rebates now and then so that the rebate seems like something special."

There never really was a discount. It's marketing to different segments of the market. It's feel good marketing.

Years ago (30+), everytime Sears ran a sale in Jackson, Tennessee the store staff would spend the night changing price tags. They'd mark up the price and then you'd get the "10% discount" off that marked up price when you came in for the "sale" the next day.

There never was a sale.
 
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