Industry News: Canon Still #2 in Full Frame Mirrorless Market

[Pierre Lagarde]

Considering Nikon was #2 seller for digital cameras all during the time Sony claims they were until they stop saying, let's consider Canon is #1 seller for mirrorless full frame until Sony stops saying they're #2 ...

 

[[email protected]]

Couple notes:
1) I used to use NPD data all the time back in my days working for major ad agencies. They're legit. The figures are for US/Canada. Will update a reference to that.
2) More importantly, I think the significance of the story isn't for chest-beating purposes, but rather to show the general direction of the market, which informs many of our long-term platform decisions. Clearly, Canon and Sony are going to be around for a while in this field. Sony set a target explicitly of being the #1 camera producer (of any and all types), and was well on the way to that. Canon's mirrorless spurt in the past couple of years may make this an impossibility. In the meantime, the other vendors have had to grab a niche or be lost. Sony is interesting in that its camera business is a hair on the tail of the dog, so if it is not making its share targets, that sort of a conglomerate is more apt to pull a Samsung and pull the chute. This story indicates that's not likely to happen anytime soon. The thing I'm quite curious about is whether low-end mirrorless offerings will wind up being the lions share of the units and revenues (probably not earnings), like they were back in the DSLR days. Seems like that low-end market is what got eaten by our iPhones. This marketshare battle will partly reveal how much that has changed.

 

[unfocused]

Couple notes:
1) I used to use NPD data all the time back in my days working for major ad agencies. They're legit. The figures are for US/Canada. Will update a reference to that.

I have no doubt that NPD is legit, but I would like to see the actual report, rather than just Sony's press release. Same if it were Canon or Nikon. I just like to see the original documents, rather than the company's filtered version. There are often nuggets of enlightening info that can be teased out of the original data.

...Clearly, Canon and Sony are going to be around for a while in this field...

As is Nikon. Conventional forum wisdom is always against Nikon, but I would never count them out. The Z9 seems like an incredible camera at an incredible price. If I were not a dedicated Canon user who never switches systems, I would be salivating over the Z9. I think it sends a signal that Nikon intends to do whatever it needs to to recapture its place in the market.

 

[justaCanonuser]

When visiting dpreview, one could be forgiven for thinking that most of the folk in the comments section are more interested in brand-warfare and mockery than in photography.

DPR is a toxic place especially for Canon users since many years, about ten years ago it was a much better place to look for useful information and comments. Some threads are still okay, but I visit DPR only a few times a year anymore

I sometimes wonder how many of them actually take photographs...

Well, it's even worse if you ask WHAT photographs some of those guys take IF they do, I sometimes really wonder what garbage in their wildlife challenges pops up as winners. I am not the arrogant guy who loves to write bad comments about others images, but I would be ashamed to show what sometimes can be seen there, getting good rates. Of course, really great images also can be seen there sometimes, but there are better places if you look for good photography itself - from photographers I can still learn how to do better.

 

[vladk]

I've used professionally Canon since 2003, and for the first time I'm really considering switching to Sony, I really disagree with Canon glass prices and also we don't have third parties glasses options...I still using the, 28 1.8 bought in 2007, 16-35 2.8 LII bought in 2009, 70-200 2.8 L bought in 2011, and 24-70 2.8 LII bought in 2014, now Canon is dropping the EF and soon will not price maintenance for these glasses...and we will be f**
That's a funny history considering someone who started to shoot with the Sony Mavica with floppy disk LOL

Prices for lenses I am/was interested in show not much difference between EF and FE:
RF 600mm 4.0 = FE 600mm 4.0
RF 400mm 2.8 = FE 400mm 2.8 and is $2K below Z 400mm 2.8
RF 70-200 2.8 = FE 70-200 2.8 and is $200 above Z 70-200 2.8
RF 100-500 is $300 above FE 100-400 but offers 400-500mm range.
RF 24-70 is $100 above Z 24-70 and $200 above FE 24-70.
RF 15-35 is $200 above FE 16-35.

And don't forget that FE do not have OIS.

RF lenses might be overpriced compared to EF. but mirrorless FF lenses are expensive from all camera makers.
At the same time, most EF glass is much cheaper, and is mostly as good as RF.
Regarding third party glass - it will take time.

 

[justaCanonuser]

And in the case of S*ny, I've hated every product of theirs I've bought since the 1980s, so that's a compelling reason to NOT switch.

Well, their Walkman was okay, I'd say

 

[neuroanatomist]

Well, their Walkman was okay, I'd say

Spoken like someone who knows what both of these objects are, and the role the first one plays in the proper functioning of the second one.

 

[vladk]

Well, their Walkman was okay, I'd say

They built good and reliable camcorders. I switched between SONY and Canon multiple times since 2000, and my current 4K one is SONY. Touchscreen and menu system are terrible, but not the IQ (for a 1" sensor).

 

[justaCanonuser]

Spoken like someone who knows what both of these objects are, and the role the first one plays in the proper functioning of the second one.

View attachment 202508

+1 I remember well for what one needed this pencil frequently - not necessarily for writing anything on a cassette's label.

Coincidently, some weeks ago popped up in my mind that one observation (more exactly, the lack of this observation) really tells that we have finally arrived the post-cassette era: no bleaching tape ribbons any more around roadside trees.

 

[justaCanonuser]

They built good and reliable camcorders. I switched between SONY and Canon multiple times since 2000, and my current 4K one is SONY. Touchscreen and menu system are terrible, but not the IQ (for a 1" sensor).

To be serious: Sony gear is good, in particular if it gears up Canon and vice versa - to the favor of all users.

 

[asingleredcactus@h]

 

[allanP]

I have been working with Canon for 20 years and I am not surprised about Sony's number 1 - regardless of Canon's late entry into new technology.
What I didn't understand was the abandonment of the unified bayonet (at least in one direction) between FF and APSC.
This was a factor that contributed to staying with Canon for years. You can change as you wanted or needed and (almost) everything was fine. Now they are two separate systems and you don't automatically switch from EF-M to RF. You have to go through a system change, and the new one may also be completely different.
Sony took advantage, Canon gave up. In addition, the opening of the bayonet at Sony for third-party manufacturers.
No wonder Canon is dead in India. For salaries (except for millionaires), nobody buys RF optics for several thousand dollars. This is also the case in other lower income countries. There, potential customers are addicted to cheaper optics.

 

[justaCanonuser]

No wonder Canon is dead in India. For salaries (except for millionaires), nobody buys RF optics for several thousand dollars. This is also the case in other lower income countries. There, potential customers are addicted to cheaper optics.

I am no expert for Sony lens prices, but you can get e.g. an RF 50mm f/1.8 STM e.g. on Amazon for US-$ 199,-. Of course, this is way to expensive for an Indian day-laborer living in the street, but I doubt Sony has something much cheaper to offer him. So there may be other reasons why Canon lost market shares in India, and I can imagine that this is connected with a sort of coolness factor Sony has there, and Canon not.

My impression is that it was a wise decision from Canon to come up with expensive lenses with spectacular specs for their new RF line. I guess this is one reason why Nikon couldn't establish their Z cameras that well, because their first Z lenses weren't that spectacular. Canon's management accepted that the ILC market has shrunken to one for more wealthy enthusiasts and an always small pro section, since the smartphone is the true successor of P&S cameras. It is again a little bit like in the 1950s, where only the more wealthy people could afford a Leica with some lenses. But there is still a lot of good, affordable EF and EF-S glass available, plus Canon introduces now much cheaper RF glass, too.

 

[allanP]

I am no expert for Sony lens prices, but you can get e.g. an RF 50mm f/1.8 STM e.g. on Amazon for US-$ 199,-. Of course, this is way to expensive for an Indian day-laborer living in the street, but I doubt Sony has something much cheaper to offer him. So there may be other reasons why Canon lost market shares in India, and I can imagine that this is connected with a sort of coolness factor Sony has there, and Canon not.

I don't mean a lens you mentioned here, I mean affordable system and wide availability of the alternative products. For example, you start with an APSC or cheaper FF camera and 1-2 lenses and have the option to expand further. With RF, the selection is limited to the manufacturer's own optics (and the cheaper products have only recently become available) and cannot keep up with the offer from Sony + Tamron + Sigma and others. There is a much more extensive range of products available, similar to the situation with Canon in the DSLR days. Even if the cheaper RF lenses are now coming, Canon is too late and has simply gambled away such markets. Whether it's India, Southeast Asia, Africa or South America, it doesn't matter.
The coolness factor is no longer important for DSLRs (i.e. with EF and EF-S), because only mirrorless is seen as cool and canon has to lose out there.
I have spent some years in such countries. You won't get very far with our views. Our purchasing behavior is different, our appreciation is different, our options are different.
For such parts of the world (and they are incredibly large) Canon is too late and too expensive.

But I share this opinion with you:
Canon management has accepted that as the smartphone is the true successor to P&S cameras, the ILC market has shrunk to one for wealthier enthusiasts and an ever smaller professional section.

 

[entoman]

All manufacturers cherry-pick statistics, but it's very clear that Sony has moved quite rapidly from becoming a rebadged Minolta seller to arguably the biggest (depending on chosen statistic) brand in photography.

It makes me retch sometimes when I read comments from trolls and brand-warriors desperately trying to bash "brand X" or desperately trying to defend "brand Y", and I can only attribute this behaviour to severe character defects in those folk.

The number of camera brands and models available to us these days is far lower than was the case a few decades ago when we all shot in film, but nevertheless we have a huge choice. None of the current brands are likely to disappear overnight, and whatever brand we use, lenses will remain available for many years new or used.

The main reason I switched to CR after many years of commenting on dpreview, was to get away from the ridiculous brand-warfare and associated ignorance and rudeness, so I hope articles like this one don't bring out the worst in people here.

 

[illadvisedhammer]

DPR is a toxic place especially for Canon users since many years, about ten years ago it was a much better place to look for useful information and comments. Some threads are still okay, but I visit DPR only a few times a year anymore


Well, it's even worse if you ask WHAT photographs some of those guys take IF they do, I sometimes really wonder what garbage in their wildlife challenges pops up as winners. I am not the arrogant guy who loves to write bad comments about others images, but I would be ashamed to show what sometimes can be seen there, getting good rates. Of course, really great images also can be seen there sometimes, but there are better places if you look for good photography itself - from photographers I can still learn how to do better.

What communities do you recommend for posting images for constructive feedback that helps you improve? How genre specific are these preferences?

 

[entoman]

I don't mean a lens you mentioned here, I mean affordable system and wide availability of the alternative products. For example, you start with an APSC or cheaper FF camera and 1-2 lenses and have the option to expand further. With RF, the selection is limited to the manufacturer's own optics (and the cheaper products have only recently become available) and cannot keep up with the offer from Sony + Tamron + Sigma and others. There is a much more extensive range of products available, similar to the situation with Canon in the DSLR days. Even if the cheaper RF lenses are now coming, Canon is too late and has simply gambled away such markets. Whether it's India, Southeast Asia, Africa or South America, it doesn't matter.
The coolness factor is no longer important for DSLRs (i.e. with EF and EF-S), because only mirrorless is seen as cool and canon has to lose out there.
I have spent some years in such countries. You won't get very far with our views. Our purchasing behavior is different, our appreciation is different, our options are different.
For such parts of the world (and they are incredibly large) Canon is too late and too expensive.

But I share this opinion with you:
Canon management has accepted that as the smartphone is the true successor to P&S cameras, the ILC market has shrunk to one for wealthier enthusiasts and an ever smaller professional section.

Canon's M system was designed primarily to cater for the different requirements of the Asian market, and sells extremely well, particularly in Japan.

Based on my own observations when travelling, and on comments made to me by local people, in India the most popular cameras with "serious" photographers are Nikons, and everyone else uses smartphones. In Africa and South America it's very unusual to see anyone with a DSLR or MILC - other than foreign tourists.

It's a great shame that local populations in Asia, S.America and Africa are generally unable to afford the cameras that we in the developed world take for granted. India IMO currently produces some of the world's best photographers, particularly in the wildlife and social/street categories.

 

[justaCanonuser]

What communities do you recommend for posting images for constructive feedback that helps you improve? How genre specific are these preferences?

I'd look on flickr and instagram, but you have to find which group fits personally to you, also on facebook you can have luck. In fact, currently I am more interested in analogue photography, so my experience may not help you. Plus, I prefer spending the spare time left over in my busy life for doing photography, not much posting and discussing stuff. Regarding wildlife, I prefer to study the images of real pros, award winners etc. to learn something useful.

 

[justaCanonuser]

I don't mean a lens you mentioned here, I mean affordable system and wide availability of the alternative products. For example, you start with an APSC or cheaper FF camera and 1-2 lenses and have the option to expand further. With RF, the selection is limited to the manufacturer's own optics (and the cheaper products have only recently become available) and cannot keep up with the offer from Sony + Tamron + Sigma and others.

I pretty sure that we see Sigma and Tamron lenses for the RF mount during this and the next year. Canon has just started with it, Sony is 10 years ahead. So far, you can work well with DSLR lenses and an RF-EF adapter, if you want. According to what I read that works quite well. So the situation is as disruptive as back in the 80s, when Canon radically changed from the FD to the EF mount to get a new, technically clean solution. Many Canon users were upset, but it was a wise decision. Nikon had a lot of trouble with their noisy, slow in-camera AF drives in the beginning, because they wanted to keep their mount compatible for all lenses since the 1950s. Canon could show off with their new, fast and silent USM drives and attract many pros and enthusiasts back then, who wanted to shoot action.

 

[stevelee]

I read some years back that Cadillac was having trouble gaining much of a foothold in China. For whatever reason, Buicks were considered more prestigious.