Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras [C

scyrene

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

3kramd5 said:
scyrene said:
Out of interest, why don't you use burst? If nailing fine focus is an issue, it adds a lot of extra shots, of which one might be perfect. I take two or three shots minimum of absolutely any subject (and a lot more of a tricky or special subject), partly to account for slight variation and imperfection in the position of the focal plane.

I can’t think of a time when my shots from the middle or end of a burst were in better focus than the one at the beginning. Composition, sure. Focus? No. Also, many (most) cameras lock focus in burst mode.

Well my experience is that, in each burst, different shots can vary subtly by focus. Whether it's the AF itself, or that as I almost always shoot handheld, my own position is varying slightly, I don't know. But whatever the reason, I find burst shooting helps mitigate this. And I actually rather enjoy going through all the shots :)
 
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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

scyrene said:
3kramd5 said:
scyrene said:
Out of interest, why don't you use burst? If nailing fine focus is an issue, it adds a lot of extra shots, of which one might be perfect. I take two or three shots minimum of absolutely any subject (and a lot more of a tricky or special subject), partly to account for slight variation and imperfection in the position of the focal plane.

I can’t think of a time when my shots from the middle or end of a burst were in better focus than the one at the beginning. Composition, sure. Focus? No. Also, many (most) cameras lock focus in burst mode.

Well my experience is that, in each burst, different shots can vary subtly by focus. Whether it's the AF itself, or that as I almost always shoot handheld, my own position is varying slightly, I don't know. But whatever the reason, I find burst shooting helps mitigate this. And I actually rather enjoy going through all the shots :)

When shooting in burst mode with my 80D + Sigma 135 ART, I find a lot of focus variation.
 

stevelee

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Talys said:
stevelee said:
Don Haines said:
The 6D2 has anti flicker.... every Canon DSLR (except rebels, I am not sure there) since the 7D2 has it. You have to turn it on.

Thanks. Are there common light sources that I'm liable to encounter for which this is a problem other than fluorescents?

They might be fluorescents of some kind, but lots of sports arenas have lights of some sort that are a problem. Some older, non-LED outdoor street lamps, too. Don't know what the technology of lighting is, but it's fixed by turning on anti-flicker.

My annual sports video project is in an arena. The color is always a problem because they don’t turn on the TV lights. There is plenty of light, but the light is not a good approximation of white and not much subject to correction in editing. (Missing frequencies I assume.) I use whatever is my newest camera, in part to learn how to use it and practice with it, especially when I’ve just got it and plan to travel with it soon. So over the years, I’ve shot these summer after-hours pick-up basketball games with S95, T3i, S120, 4K on iPhone 6S, and last year the G7X II. I’ve not recognized any flicker effect with any of them. I’m assuming that I won’t need to use antiflicker when I try this June with the 6D2 and the STM kit lens. I do plan to try shooting a piece of paper or a gray card under the lights to make a custom white balance. I might play around with the autofocus. In the past, I’ve just relied on the hyperfocal distance to cover it.
 

AvTvM

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
Some people don't like sacrificing performance (whereas you'd sacrifice performance along with a dozen baby goats and your grandmother for a miniature Canon FF MILC with a new mount for tiny, slow lenses).

actually yes i would. Just make that 2 dozen baby goats, since both my grandmothers are already "traded-in". ;D

And yes, for a Sony RX1R -II sized MILC + matching lenses I would happily give up a lot of the "performance" so important to some around here. My needs and wants are much more humble. Don't do BIF, dont do sports, dont do astro, rarely do any "long tele stuff". So I'll be perfectly fine with
* 4-6 fps and an AF system to handle that ... "really right"
* 24-30 MP on FF sensor with excellent base IQ / DR and really clean RAWs all the way to ISO 6400
* a few small, decent IQ (!) f/2.8 primes and f/4 zooms are fast enough for me
* video capture capability not needed, much less 4k or 8k or zebras
* manual focusing capability not needed [provided AF system is "really right"]
* monofunctional control points, top-LCD or retro looks also not needed (bye bye Fuji!)
* battery life 500 shots would be nice ... but can get by on 200 + 2 spare batteries when needed as well ... e.g. EOS M Mk. I ;D

However, i'd love to have it totally silent and 100% vibration free. Plus absolutely "best in class" EVF ["Retina" or 4k welcome] and camera to be really responsive/snappy .. always hate lags and waits. :)
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

3kramd5 said:
I can’t think of a time when my shots from the middle or end of a burst were in better focus than the one at the beginning. Composition, sure. Focus? No. Also, many (most) cameras lock focus in burst mode.

I'm not sure your last statement is true. My 1D X refocuses between frames of a burst. So did my 7D. I think that most mirrorless cameras do lock focus at the first frame of a burst.


scyrene said:
Well my experience is that, in each burst, different shots can vary subtly by focus. Whether it's the AF itself, or that as I almost always shoot handheld, my own position is varying slightly, I don't know. But whatever the reason, I find burst shooting helps mitigate this. And I actually rather enjoy going through all the shots :)

+1

I'll add two observations – one is that I have a suspicion (admittedly based on anecdotal observations and not much empirical evidence) that the AF system alternates/switches the sensor line(s) used to determine the phase difference between shots of a burst, when similar phase differences are detected with multiple lines. As I've stated before, the actual phase AF point is larger than the box representation in the viewfinder, and it's not infrequent that an area under the AF point has more than one properly oriented feature. An old example is shown below, two successive shots out of a burst witht he 7D and 135/2L at f/2. I superimposed part of the AF array and a reduced version of the AF sensor's central cluster (it's really several AF points, not one, I just used it to suggest the orientations and larger-than-the-box concept). Out of that burst of ~10 shots, the focus alternated between slightly forward and slightly back, reproducibly F-B-F-B-etc for the whole burst. That seems non-random, but it might just be stochastic.

The other observation has nothing to do with AF, per se. I have had some friends state that they shoot bursts because the first shot or two are usually out of focus, but then the focus system 'settles down'. I ask if they're using IS/VR/VC lenses and the answer in those cases has always been yes, so I explain that it's not the AF system that needs to settle, but rather the IS system that needs up to 1/2 s to become fully effective (and during IS startup, it can actually add more blur than just handholding would produce).
 

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3kramd5

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
3kramd5 said:
I can’t think of a time when my shots from the middle or end of a burst were in better focus than the one at the beginning. Composition, sure. Focus? No. Also, many (most) cameras lock focus in burst mode.

I'm not sure your last statement is true. My 1D X refocuses between frames of a burst. So did my 7D. I think that most mirrorless cameras do lock focus at the first frame of a burst.

It indeed might not be correct.

I guess there is some nuance to “burst.” I was considering max framerate. My 1Dx locks the mirror up in that situation, and I recall issues getting max framerate with my 5Diii with continuous AF.

I strike the (most) from the post.
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

3kramd5 said:
neuroanatomist said:
3kramd5 said:
I can’t think of a time when my shots from the middle or end of a burst were in better focus than the one at the beginning. Composition, sure. Focus? No. Also, many (most) cameras lock focus in burst mode.

I'm not sure your last statement is true. My 1D X refocuses between frames of a burst. So did my 7D. I think that most mirrorless cameras do lock focus at the first frame of a burst.

It indeed might not be correct.

I guess there is some nuance to “burst.” I was considering max framerate. My 1Dx locks the mirror up in that situation, and I recall issues getting max framerate with my 5Diii with continuous AF.

I strike the (most) from the post.

At the super high-speed 14 fps, there is no AF between frames, along with a host of other restrictions (the mirror is locked up, shots are saved in jpg only, caveats around ISO and aperture settings etc.). Personally, I've never bothered with 14 fps. But at the regular max burst of 12 fps, the 1D X focuses between each frame of the burst.

https://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2013/eos1dx_high_speed_shooting.htmlp

Even the Rebel/xxxD cameras focus between frames in AI Servo AF. Nikon dSLRs focus between frames in AF-C. The EOS M mirrorless cameras also focus between frames of a burst (although the earlier ones only did so with EF-M lenses). So I'd say strike both (most) and 'many' from your post, and go with 'some' (at best) or 'a few'. Or just eliminate the phrase, it's not really helping your case. ;)
 

ahsanford

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
3kramd5 said:
I can’t think of a time when my shots from the middle or end of a burst were in better focus than the one at the beginning. Composition, sure. Focus? No. Also, many (most) cameras lock focus in burst mode.

I'm not sure your last statement is true. My 1D X refocuses between frames of a burst. So did my 7D. I think that most mirrorless cameras do lock focus at the first frame of a burst.

This varies depending on the age of the body:

A7 first gen = 100% as you put it.

A7 second gen, they started to get into continuous AF but if memory serves it was laden with all sorts of strings and conditions depending on the lens's max aperture and if you wanted RAW files, etc. Reading the manuals on this felt like reading the instructions to a complicated board game.

3rd gen feels more like proper continuous AF as far as fine print goes (i.e. it's less fine-print-y and continuous AF as we know it will function), but I'm sure as Talys has outlined in other posts that that it's full of odd conditions and terms you need to navigate (CDAF vs. PDAF, various modes, etc.).

So Sony is trending in the right direction on continuous AF. Good thing they asked their users to underwrite three generations of body offerings to work out all the kinks to get there. ;D

- A
 

3kramd5

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
3kramd5 said:
neuroanatomist said:
3kramd5 said:
I can’t think of a time when my shots from the middle or end of a burst were in better focus than the one at the beginning. Composition, sure. Focus? No. Also, many (most) cameras lock focus in burst mode.

I'm not sure your last statement is true. My 1D X refocuses between frames of a burst. So did my 7D. I think that most mirrorless cameras do lock focus at the first frame of a burst.

It indeed might not be correct.

I guess there is some nuance to “burst.” I was considering max framerate. My 1Dx locks the mirror up in that situation, and I recall issues getting max framerate with my 5Diii with continuous AF.

I strike the (most) from the post.

At the super high-speed 14 fps, there is no AF between frames, along with a host of other restrictions (the mirror is locked up, shots are saved in jpg only, caveats around ISO and aperture settings etc.). Personally, I've never bothered with 14 fps. But at the regular max burst of 12 fps, the 1D X focuses between each frame of the burst.

https://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2013/eos1dx_high_speed_shooting.htmlp

Even the Rebel/xxxD cameras focus between frames in AI Servo AF. Nikon dSLRs focus between frames in AF-C. The EOS M mirrorless cameras also focus between frames of a burst (although the earlier ones only did so with EF-M lenses). So I'd say strike both (most) and 'many' from your post, and go with 'some' (at best) or 'a few'. Or just eliminate the phrase, it's not really helping your case. ;)

Except i don’t rally have a case, and there are a whole hell of a lot of cameras out there which aren’t nikon or canon SLRs or MILCs. I just tried it on my iPhone and it didn’t appear to refocus between frames :p
 

Talys

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
The other observation has nothing to do with AF, per se. I have had some friends state that they shoot bursts because the first shot or two are usually out of focus, but then the focus system 'settles down'. I ask if they're using IS/VR/VC lenses and the answer in those cases has always been yes, so I explain that it's not the AF system that needs to settle, but rather the IS system that needs up to 1/2 s to become fully effective (and during IS startup, it can actually add more blur than just handholding would produce).

It could be that when they depress the on-body shutter button, they're torqueing the body a little. If you roll your fingers across the shutter (instead of jab at it), this minimizes the impact, but for sure, it is still there. a couple of frames into it, and that wont' be the case anymore.

Incidentally, this is a design deficiency in the Sony bodies, in my opinion. The shutter button has a ridge around it for the power switch that is raised very sharply, and makes it impossible to gently roll the finger across the button. Nikon has a similar design, but because of the gently sloping ring, it's not a big deal. I think that the clean Canon shutter button design is the best.

On a side note, I have never understood the point of the power switch by the shutter, cluttering the most valuable real estate on the body. When I'm engaged in photography, I turn on the camera, and leave it on for hours.
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Talys said:
On a side note, I have never understood the point of the power switch by the shutter, cluttering the most valuable real estate on the body. When I'm engaged in photography, I turn on the camera, and leave it on for hours.

Don't try that with your mirrorless. Maybe that's why they put the power switch there, to remind you to turn the camera off after every shot, to conserve the limited battery power. :p
 

old-pr-pix

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

ahsanford said:
neuroanatomist said:
3kramd5 said:
I can’t think of a time when my shots from the middle or end of a burst were in better focus than the one at the beginning. Composition, sure. Focus? No. Also, many (most) cameras lock focus in burst mode.

I'm not sure your last statement is true. My 1D X refocuses between frames of a burst. So did my 7D. I think that most mirrorless cameras do lock focus at the first frame of a burst.

This varies depending on the age of the body:

A7 first gen = 100% as you put it.

A7 second gen, they started to get into continuous AF but if memory serves it was laden with all sorts of strings and conditions depending on the lens's max aperture and if you wanted RAW files, etc. Reading the manuals on this felt like reading the instructions to a complicated board game.

3rd gen feels more like proper continuous AF as far as fine print goes (i.e. it's less fine-print-y and continuous AF as we know it will function), but I'm sure as Talys has outlined in other posts that that it's full of odd conditions and terms you need to navigate (CDAF vs. PDAF, various modes, etc.).

So Sony is trending in the right direction on continuous AF. Good thing they asked their users to underwrite three generations of body offerings to work out all the kinks to get there. ;D

- A
Similar evolution for Olympus although Oly clearly states multiple burst rates depending on mechanical vs. electronic shutter, continuous AF vs. first frame locked focus. Example spec. for latest body (all shooting full RAW or RAW+jpg): electronic shutter 60 fps (S-AF) and 18 fps (C-AF), mechanical shutter hits 15 fps (S-AF) - i.e. similar to the 1DX. Panasonic's new G9 is equal or better for electronic shutter, slightly slower for mechanical shutter.

So, current MILC's don't have to lock focus on the first frame of a burst while besting many, if not most, dSLR's. (Is there a dSLR that hits 18 fps with continuous AF?)
 

Talys

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
Talys said:
On a side note, I have never understood the point of the power switch by the shutter, cluttering the most valuable real estate on the body. When I'm engaged in photography, I turn on the camera, and leave it on for hours.

Don't try that with your mirrorless. Maybe that's why they put the power switch there, to remind you to turn the camera off after every shot, to conserve the limited battery power. :p

hahahaha

+1
 

ahsanford

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

old-pr-pix said:
Similar evolution for Olympus although Oly clearly states multiple burst rates depending on mechanical vs. electronic shutter, continuous AF vs. first frame locked focus. Example spec. for latest body (all shooting full RAW or RAW+jpg): electronic shutter 60 fps (S-AF) and 18 fps (C-AF), mechanical shutter hits 15 fps (S-AF) - i.e. similar to the 1DX. Panasonic's new G9 is equal or better for electronic shutter, slightly slower for mechanical shutter.

So, current MILC's don't have to lock focus on the first frame of a burst while besting many, if not most, dSLR's. (Is there a dSLR that hits 18 fps with continuous AF?)

With e-shutter vs. mechanical Sony got a little burned with the A9 (20 fps e-shutter with some interesting stadium lighting problems and yet only a 5 fps max mechanical shutter to fall back on), the so new III models for the A7 have 10 fps mechanical shutters now I believe -- please correct me if I am mistaken. Curious to see how/when they'll go big on a high fps electronic shutter again.

- A
 

Talys

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

ahsanford said:
old-pr-pix said:
Similar evolution for Olympus although Oly clearly states multiple burst rates depending on mechanical vs. electronic shutter, continuous AF vs. first frame locked focus. Example spec. for latest body (all shooting full RAW or RAW+jpg): electronic shutter 60 fps (S-AF) and 18 fps (C-AF), mechanical shutter hits 15 fps (S-AF) - i.e. similar to the 1DX. Panasonic's new G9 is equal or better for electronic shutter, slightly slower for mechanical shutter.

So, current MILC's don't have to lock focus on the first frame of a burst while besting many, if not most, dSLR's. (Is there a dSLR that hits 18 fps with continuous AF?)

With e-shutter vs. mechanical Sony got a little burned with the A9 (20 fps e-shutter with some interesting stadium lighting problems and yet only a 5 fps max mechanical shutter to fall back on), the so new III models for the A7 have 10 fps mechanical shutters now I believe -- please correct me if I am mistaken. Curious to see how/when they'll go big on a high fps electronic shutter again.

- A

The 10 fps mechanical shutter on the III's have limitations. You need to set it to 8 fps for most things because at 10fps, the EVF has delayed updates. I don't know the AF situation at 10fps; didn't test it before I returned the camera, since effectively shooting blind was a deal-killer for me. The use case of 10fps is, for instance, to take a string of photographs of someone jumping off a diving board where you want to grab as many frames as possible, while the camera is in a fixed position.

The electronic (silent) shutter has distortion that's unreal if there is motion.
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Talys said:
The use case of 10fps is, for instance, to take a string of photographs of someone jumping off a diving board where you want to grab as many frames as possible, while the camera is in a fixed position.

The electronic (silent) shutter has distortion that's unreal if there is motion.

Sony will fix it through innovation. The a7RIV will have a button that suspends gravity and stops time, which will eliminate the distortion caused by their silent shutter.
 

ahsanford

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
Sony will fix it through innovation. The a7RIV will have a button that suspends gravity and stops time, which will eliminate the distortion caused by their silent shutter.

And a handle with built-in acupuncture to numb your hand pain. But that'll be a while -- it's a definitively different type of sealing design. :eek:

- A
 

Tugela

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
Talys said:
On a side note, I have never understood the point of the power switch by the shutter, cluttering the most valuable real estate on the body. When I'm engaged in photography, I turn on the camera, and leave it on for hours.

Don't try that with your mirrorless. Maybe that's why they put the power switch there, to remind you to turn the camera off after every shot, to conserve the limited battery power. :p

What the hell are you talking about? I leave my camera on for hours and don't have an issue with battery life. Batteries on my old DSLRs lasted as long as the batteries on my current MILC. In fact, you DON'T want to switch your camera off while using it, otherwise you run into warmup issues on restarting.

What uses battery life for the most part is leaving CAF on since driving the lens motors sucks up a lot of power. That is an issue with DSLRs as well.
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Tugela said:
neuroanatomist said:
Talys said:
On a side note, I have never understood the point of the power switch by the shutter, cluttering the most valuable real estate on the body. When I'm engaged in photography, I turn on the camera, and leave it on for hours.

Don't try that with your mirrorless. Maybe that's why they put the power switch there, to remind you to turn the camera off after every shot, to conserve the limited battery power. :p

What the hell are you talking about? I leave my camera on for hours and don't have an issue with battery life. Batteries on my old DSLRs lasted as long as the batteries on my current MILC. In fact, you DON'T want to switch your camera off while using it, otherwise you run into warmup issues on restarting.

What uses battery life for the most part is leaving CAF on since driving the lens motors sucks up a lot of power. That is an issue with DSLRs as well.

I love the whooshing sound that occurs when humor sails right over someone's head.
 

CanonFanBoy

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Tugela said:
neuroanatomist said:
Talys said:
On a side note, I have never understood the point of the power switch by the shutter, cluttering the most valuable real estate on the body. When I'm engaged in photography, I turn on the camera, and leave it on for hours.

Don't try that with your mirrorless. Maybe that's why they put the power switch there, to remind you to turn the camera off after every shot, to conserve the limited battery power. :p

In fact, you DON'T want to switch your camera off while using it, otherwise you run into warm up issues on restarting.

^Issues^ Hmmm... another chink in Sony's mythical armour. No problem with battery life, but you'd better not turn it off. Warm up issues. :eek:

I turn my DSLR off and on with no issues at all. Don't see how a Sony battery lasts as long if "... you don't want to turn it off. " Sounds like a warning to me.