Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Cameras [C

reef58

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Gear is fun, but Arnold Newman's photographs remain unmatched for the most part with the tech being large format film.
 

Talys

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

CanonFanBoy said:
Talys said:
CanonFanBoy said:
TRUTH: It Isn't The Gear!
...
Most of us have far better gear than our capabilities deserve. I know I do.

If a person looks at his own work and says, "This isn't a me problem, it's a tech problem..." Then that person just ain't no got dang good! Try cooking and quit lying to yourself.

I couldn't agree more.

All I was driving at is that there's a market for people who aren't really interested in the work required to improve their capabilities, who want the best possible better-than-smartphone picture, or, worse, the best possible theoretical picture that they'll never take. :)

It all reminds me of a Gizmodo article on the A7RII when it first came out. I remember the reviewer crowing about it, saying that the camera was like cheating, because every photo that came out of it was gorgeous no matter what he did. Then, looking at the sample gallery, I recall thinking, "Yes, every photo you've taken is a perfect example of how no amount of technology can fix a lame photograph."

I think we are on the same wavelength. I hope you didn't think I was directing anything at all towards you. I didn't mean to give that impression if I did.

I believe that we have very similar philosophies where it comes to photography and I didn't read anything as being directed at me. :)
 

Woody

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Talys said:
... It's the same reason (some) people love TTL flashes, versus bouncing off some surface or reflector and manually adjusting exposure. It's easier.

... For example, I've noticed that many professionals or serious enthusiasts who have tried Sony A7R3 say that one the features that they love most is focus magnification with manual focus, and I agree.

Why bother with manual focus when there's autofocus which makes the job easier? Yes, there are situations when manual focusing is needed, but that is not something the majority needs, unlike nailing the right exposure.

Also, all DSLRs can do live view these days... So nailing scenes with tricky exposure or making the manual focus job easier can both be accomplished by DSLRs too. At least, that's why I got myself the 77D. It offers an optical viewfinder which doesn't draw precious battery power... and I can activate live view when there's a need. The way I see it, we get the best of both worlds.
 

ahsanford

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Woody said:
Why bother with manual focus when there's autofocus which makes the job easier? Yes, there are situations when manual focusing is needed, but that is not something the majority needs, unlike nailing the right exposure.

Also, all DSLRs can do live view these days... So nailing scenes with tricky exposure or making the manual focus job easier can both be accomplished by DSLRs too. At least, that's why I got myself the 77D. It offers an optical viewfinder which doesn't draw precious battery power... and I can activate live view when there's a need. The way I see it, we get the best of both worlds.

Why mirrorless intrigues me (though I still shoot everything on my 5D3):

Unless you own a 1-seres camera (or a 7D2, I think?), no latest model of Canon SLR offers manual focusing screens any more. So if I want to try some exciting Zeiss / Samyang / rando kickstarter company manual lens while shooting handheld, I'm SOL. An EVF and decently implemented peaking setup solves that for me. LiveView is a simple fail here as I'm referring to 50 primes, 85 primes, 135 primes, etc. shot at large apertures with little latitude for focusing error. I'm not going to try that with LiveView handheld -- no way.

So I've heard this 'best of both worlds' argument with SLRs before, and I think it's highly conditional. LiveView + handheld + 5x/10x focusing + large aperture shooting = a hot mess, IMHO. I overwhelmingly prefer to do all that through the viewfinder, but as Canon doesn't want to allow us to do that anymore in the 5D line, I will have to wait for FF mirrorless before I give those lenses a go.

- A
 

Talys

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Woody said:
Talys said:
... It's the same reason (some) people love TTL flashes, versus bouncing off some surface or reflector and manually adjusting exposure. It's easier.

... For example, I've noticed that many professionals or serious enthusiasts who have tried Sony A7R3 say that one the features that they love most is focus magnification with manual focus, and I agree.

Why bother with manual focus when there's autofocus which makes the job easier? Yes, there are situations when manual focusing is needed, but that is not something the majority needs, unlike nailing the right exposure.

Also, all DSLRs can do live view these days... So nailing scenes with tricky exposure or making the manual focus job easier can both be accomplished by DSLRs too. At least, that's why I got myself the 77D. It offers an optical viewfinder which doesn't draw precious battery power... and I can activate live view when there's a need. The way I see it, we get the best of both worlds.

Don't knock magnified manual focus until you've tried it. When I was using the A7R3, I programmed the button on the lens barrel to manual focus while pressed, and the body to automatically go into 6.3x zoom during MF. I would use back button (only) continuous autofocus.

So what I'd do is autofocus on my subject, then immediately press the lens barrel button. The focus point then goes into 6.3x maginfication, and I could use the manual focus ring to slightly adjust it. As soon as I released, it would bounce back into 1x magnification.

The issue isn't really, "Is autofocus accurate", but more so, often, the camera is autofocusing on slightly the wrong feature, especially on wide open, large aperture lenses like 70-200/2.8, but even sometimes on apertures up to 5.6. To take the simplest example, if I'm photographing a duck that's facing me, there could be a huge difference between focusing on the head of the duck and the duck's body.

To flip it around, though, on a Canon, using Spot AF, I can actually get the duck's head at least 3/4 of the time. Using an A7R3, God only knows what I'll get, because the smallest spot focus is quite large; and the super fine tune autofocus only uses Contrast Detect AF and is so slow that the duck is long gone. So, it's a more valuable tool on the Sony because the spot AF has less precision. But still, it is a great feature.

When I'm taking bird portraits on a tripod with a Canon, I will almost always flip it to live view, magnify, and make sure that I'm focusing on the right part of the bird (or just to take AF out of the equation). There's no point in getting all setup just to have soft eyes. But realistically, live view mangify handheld with even the 100-400LII is pretty hard to do. In both cases, it's a lost cause on moving objects.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm a huge fan of the optical viewfinder, and I wouldn't trade my pentaprism for an EVF, even with focus magnification. The (HUGE) battery power draw that you cite is one factor, the quality of the viewfinder in dim light is another. A third is the "blackout" -- it isn't powered when it's not against your eye, which means that as you draw your camera close, the viewfinder isn't showing anything until you're pressed right up to it.

Related, the PDAF autofocus from the Canon or Nikon is also much quicker to acquire focus than Sony's Hybrid AF. I don't know exactly why that is, since Sony uses PDAF too, so it may not have anything to do with EVF/OVF.


ahsanford said:
Why mirrorless intrigues me (though I still shoot everything on my 5D3):

Unless you own a 1-seres camera (or a 7D2, I think?), no latest model of Canon SLR offers manual focusing screens any more. So if I want to try some exciting Zeiss / Samyang / rando kickstarter company manual lens while shooting handheld, I'm SOL. An EVF and decently implemented peaking setup solves that for me. LiveView is a simple fail here as I'm referring to 50 primes, 85 primes, 135 primes, etc. shot at large apertures with little latitude for focusing error. I'm not going to try that with LiveView handheld -- no way.

Exactly that. Shallow depth of field makes focus very important, and now that we don't have MF screens, getting MF right can be hard. It can look perfect in the VF at 1x; it might even look good in preview on the LCD. Then, in post, you find out, it's slightly soft because the AF point was just off.

It's very nice in macro, too.
 

crashpc

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Jan 19, 2014
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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Wow, Neuro knows how to be bitter from time to time....

Anyway, to lighten up, I bring you some fun.
This is what happens when Canon enters the MILC market with their FF:
 

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

There is a lot of discussion about which lenses will be used for this camera, but every photograph I've seen shows it with an EF L series lens. Isn't this a clue?
 

crashpc

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

I didn´t see any photograph of the new M MILC prototype. Am I missing something?
 

canonnews

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Chilts said:
There is a lot of discussion about which lenses will be used for this camera, but every photograph I've seen shows it with an EF L series lens. Isn't this a clue?

it's a photoshop mockup from years past, we use it because it's well, tradition ;)
 

alienman

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Thank you Canon! This is what I've been wanting to see!
 

bwud

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Talys said:
Don't knock magnified manual focus until you've tried it. When I was using the A7R3, I programmed the button on the lens barrel to manual focus while pressed, and the body to automatically go into 6.3x zoom during MF. I would use back button (only) continuous autofocus.

So what I'd do is autofocus on my subject, then immediately press the lens barrel button. The focus point then goes into 6.3x maginfication, and I could use the manual focus ring to slightly adjust it. As soon as I released, it would bounce back into 1x magnification.

Did you find this worked better than DMF mode (which I think willl do the same without the button press)? Maybe it doesn’t operate with AF removed from the shutter release (that isn’t clear from the help guide).

Personally I use the AEL button for Eye-AF, I center press the joystick for AF ON (nice because I don’t have to move my thumb to another location), and I just have C2 mapped to toggle MF, and C1 mapped to focus magnify. I didn’t like the automatic focus magnify. The lens button is an interesting idea for MF toggle. I have been mostly avoiding that button for muscle memory purposes since not all the lenses I use have it, but the ones which do not (e.g. canon 16-35 f/4) are mechanical so don’t need to be toggled, so there’s little harm.

Talys said:
To flip it around, though, on a Canon, using Spot AF, I can actually get the duck's head at least 3/4 of the time. Using an A7R3, God only knows what I'll get, because the smallest spot focus is quite large

Is there something which describes the size of the AF spots on the a7? Maybe a description of the CFA from which to glean info? I don’t think they’re using half-masked pixels anymore, but there should be some way to know.

I’ve seen photos of the PDAF unit for my 5Diii, and those sensors are quite large (especially relative to the boxes used to select them), but I have no idea how big the pixel groups used for AF are in my a7riii.
 

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ethanz

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

crashpc said:
Wow, Neuro knows how to be bitter from time to time....

Anyway, to lighten up, I bring you some fun.
This is what happens when Canon enters the MILC market with their FF:

Nice picture.
 

Talys

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

bwud said:
Did you find this worked better than DMF mode (which I think willl do the same without the button press)? Maybe it doesn’t operate with AF removed from the shutter release (that isn’t clear from the help guide).

I find that DMF is a cruel joke, like many features that Sony builds. "Direct Manual Focus" sounds fantastic.

It sounds like the only downside is that it's one-shot mode (AF-S), but the problem is.... AF-S is Contrast Detect Autofocus, at least on the native 70-200/2.8, 85/1.4 and 85/1.8. Every single time you focus, it will do a back-and-forth hunt wobble (just google it... I did, because I was going out of my mind thinking I had gone crazy). The native 100-400 doesn't seem to suffer from the wobble; I don't know if it's actually running in CDAF or PDAF in AF-S.

It isn't too bad with the lens barrel button to engage manual focus while depressed, because on the lenses I wanted to use it for, the button was situated just behind the focus ring (and on some models, you get 3 identical buttons).


bwud said:
Personally I use the AEL button for Eye-AF, I center press the joystick for AF ON (nice because I don’t have to move my thumb to another location), and I just have C2 mapped to toggle MF, and C1 mapped to focus magnify. I didn’t like the automatic focus magnify. The lens button is an interesting idea for MF toggle. I have been mostly avoiding that button for muscle memory purposes since not all the lenses I use have it, but the ones which do not (e.g. canon 16-35 f/4) are mechanical so don’t need to be toggled, so there’s little harm.

I experimented with this a whole bunch, and I originally didn't like automatic focus magnify, too. For some time, I programmed it to the AEL button (since Eye AF doesn't work on birds anyways :)). I kind of changed my mind after using it some, although partly, it was because I found that the MF ring takes too large a rotation on the 100-400 focus by wire lens to be very useful except to fine-tune anyhow.

A nice feature of the Sony is that the auto focus magnify is saved with each custom mode, so you can have C1 auto focus magnify, and C2 not.
 

bwud

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Re: cruel joke :D ;D :D. I just looked at it as pointless for how I typically shoot, but if the implementation sucks, it’s even worse than useless.


That distinction on c1 and c2 is not a bad idea!
 

ahsanford

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

Talys said:
It sounds like the only downside is that it's one-shot mode (AF-S), but the problem is.... AF-S is Contrast Detect Autofocus, at least on the native 70-200/2.8, 85/1.4 and 85/1.8. Every single time you focus, it will do a back-and-forth hunt wobble (just google it... I did, because I was going out of my mind thinking I had gone crazy). The native 100-400 doesn't seem to suffer from the wobble; I don't know if it's actually running in CDAF or PDAF in AF-S.

How much of this new AF landscape (PDAF, CDAF, different modes with weird little wrinkles like this, variable AF experience as a function of lens, etc.) will we be burdened with as Canon users?

Is this more a culmination of bad decisions Sony made for the sake of time-to-market or expanded older lens compatibility, or are Canonites going to be wading into the same soup of 'it's technical', YMMV as a function of use cases and lenses, etc.?

Or has Canon always been 'it's technical' but they've just better implemented it such that we don't think about it?

- A
 

3kramd5

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

ahsanford said:
Talys said:
It sounds like the only downside is that it's one-shot mode (AF-S), but the problem is.... AF-S is Contrast Detect Autofocus, at least on the native 70-200/2.8, 85/1.4 and 85/1.8. Every single time you focus, it will do a back-and-forth hunt wobble (just google it... I did, because I was going out of my mind thinking I had gone crazy). The native 100-400 doesn't seem to suffer from the wobble; I don't know if it's actually running in CDAF or PDAF in AF-S.

How much of this new AF landscape (PDAF, CDAF, different modes with weird little wrinkles like this, variable AF experience as a function of lens, etc.) will we be burdened with as Canon users?

Is this more a culmination of bad decisions Sony made for the sake of time-to-market or expanded older lens compatibility, or are Canonites going to be wading into the same soup of 'it's technical', YMMV as a function of use cases and lenses, etc.?

Or has Canon always been 'it's technical' but they've just better implemented it such that we don't think about it?

- A

I don’t have any DPAF cameras, but how they operate in live view is likely a good indicator of how a mirrorless camera will. Is it a mix of PDAF for initial acquisition plus CDAF for fine tuning?
 

ahsanford

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

3kramd5 said:
I don’t have any DPAF cameras, but how they operate in live view is likely a good indicator of how a mirrorless camera will. Is it a mix of PDAF for initial acquisition plus CDAF for fine tuning?

It just occurred to me that I could use my shiny new CPS membership to try out gear other than lenses. (Rent bodies? What?! Who'd have thunk it?)

I would give the M5 a go to get a taste for what the FF EVF/DPAF future will be like with my L lenses... but the M5 isn't on the eval list. :-[

- A
 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

ahsanford said:
How much of this new AF landscape (PDAF, CDAF, different modes with weird little wrinkles like this, variable AF experience as a function of lens, etc.) will we be burdened with as Canon users?

We're not already burdened?

[quote author=Canon]The number of usable AF points on 61-point AF System will differ depending on the lens. The lenses are classified into 9 groups from A to I. Check below link for which group your lens belongs to. (When using a lens from Group F to H, fewer AF points will be usable)
http://www.canon.com.hk/en/product/catalog/getProductTag.do?tagID=4672[/quote]
 

ahsanford

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

neuroanatomist said:
We're not already burdened?

Was waiting for that from you. :p (Quote from Canon, cute.)

I'm an overwhelmingly latter day design lens user + one shot AF + single shot (no burst) user.

So my AF world is super simple: how wide is my spread of AF points, how do I set my zones / clusters, how accurate/consistent/reliable is it, how fast does this lens get the job done... and where is the menu option to smash this STM lens with a hammer because it missed the shot and is the soulless husk of what I want?

- A
 

Uneternal

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Re: Here Are Some Claimed Specifications For One of the Prototype Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Camera

If you know Canon from the past, you know that there is no way that this information is correct.

This is a wish list of somebody. I am 1000% sure this is not going to happen.
Here are my predicted specs:

- Definitely no articulating screen (cause they save this for the next model)
- C-Log hahaha nice but no way, same goes for dual slots
- Same sensor like 5D4 - maybe but with 24-26 megapixels instead of 30
- 1/4000 max. shutter - 1/200 xsync
- 4K 30p / FHD 60p
- Frame rate: 6 fps