A Real EOS M Replacement Coming Soon? [CR1]

[distant.star]

I've already bought my last Canon DSLR, and if Canon doesn't come out with a Pro Mirrrrorless I've already bought my last Canon camera.

I'm in that same camp. I've already stopped buying anything Canon related. And my mind is slowly migrating to a full Fuji system after working with the X100S since the Spring.

Things may be different if I had any interest in BIF, wildlife, sports and other distant moving things.

 

[rrcphoto]

I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.

I don't think it will be that drasticallly different from what is out now, they would be in fear of cannibalizing their DSLR sales.

Steve Jobs said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will." For me, that someone else was Olympus. I've already bought my last Canon DSLR, and if Canon doesn't come out with a Pro Mirrrrorless I've already bought my last Canon camera.

pro mirrorless without the lenses to back it up .. yeah, sounds like you want to purchase a sony - that's what they do.

 

[infared]

I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.

I don't think it will be that drasticallly different from what is out now, they would be in fear of cannibalizing their DSLR sales.

Steve Jobs said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will." For me, that someone else was Olympus. I've already bought my last Canon DSLR, and if Canon doesn't come out with a Pro Mirrrrorless I've already bought my last Canon camera.

I have to agree...Canon is being increasingly eaten away at by mirrorless cameras from Sony, Fuji, olOympus and Panasonic cameras ( and others). As those systems grow with more and better quality lenses and improved sensor quality ...more and more photographers will migrate to those systems because of the small footprint. I myself have an extensive MFT Kit that compliments my FF Canon kit...and I am using my FF gear less and less.
It makes no sense to watch Canon play Ostrich with this new camera market...but that is what they have done so far either deliberately or by lack of awareness.

 

[KeithBreazeal]

A new FF mirrorless with a touch screen and built like the 5D Mark III is what I wish for.
The frames per second would smoke anything on the market. Just sayin' 8)

So, you want a slow focusing camera with a slow viewfinder to shoot quickly? Why?

I'm 65 and slower than my 5D Mark III, so no problem.

 

[Woody]

Actually, if Canon is losing customers to the mirrorless camp, Nikon is in a worse situation.

For a start, Canon chose their sensor size right. As many folks have already indicated, myself included, all Canon needs to do is introduce an EOS-M2 update with DPAF and they are nearly there. Throw in features like EVF, Wifi, articulate screen, more lenses etc and they are almost ready to duke it out against the A6000/EM1/XT1.

Nikon, on the other hand, probably needs to throw out their over-priced small sensor 1 series cameras, lenses and accessories, and return to the drawing board.

 

[AvTvM]

pro mirrorless without the lenses to back it up .. yeah, sounds like you want to purchase a sony - that's what they do.

Lenses are there. eF-M are "pro" enough. Plus all "pro"/ L lenses with EF mount can be used via small and simple adapter. No need to re-invent the wheel.

The only thing missing is a "pro enough" EOS-M body. Something at least as "pro" as a fuji XT-1 or Olympus OMD1 with as "pro" an AF system as a Sony A6000.

Whether canon calls it "M3" or Rebel something ... Does not matter to me, as long as it is small, very good and very affordable.

that said, APS-C sensored EOS-M system is only a stop gap or stepping stone to "truly pro-grade" FF mirrorless system to come. As "pro" as the next iteration of sony A7/R/S.

 

[rrcphoto]

pro mirrorless without the lenses to back it up .. yeah, sounds like you want to purchase a sony - that's what they do.

Lenses are there. eF-M are "pro" enough. Plus all "pro"/ L lenses with EF mount can be used via small and simple adapter. No need to re-invent the wheel.

The only thing missing is a "pro enough" EOS-M body. Something at least as "pro" as a fuji XT-1 or Olympus OMD1

pro enough never to sell?
these sell is such small quantities why would canon even bother?

I don't even think the Fuji Xt1 even makes a blip on bcn's japan rankings let alone anywhere else.

I mean, here's a news flash .. the people that hang on in dpreview, cr forums .. aren't the mass buying public. while it's certainly good to tailor to us if you have no market (like sony, Fuji,etc) does .. it's not exactly profitable for Canon or Nikon to migrate R&D away from other areas, nor does it build an installed base in the lens mount.

MILC / Small FF is even more against what canon is saying they wish to do with MILC - which is to get it even smaller.

 

[Arctic Photo]

Canon should bring 2 Models:
• EOS 3 - as small as possible, = like EOS M2, with 70D sensor, fast enough DPAF, some minor improvements, price exactly like SL/100D
• EOS M Pro = "Fuji XT1 killer", 7D 2 sensor, AF speed best in class, EVF, built in flash, built in wifi, GPS and RT commander, fully articulated "retina" LCD, beefier grip to fit LO-E6N battery for 500 shots per charge.

And never mind should those 2 models confuse some consumers. They can still go and buy a rebel or other mirrorslappers.

I am sure Canon will keep the EF-M mount. It' specs are well chosen and the existing lens line-up are all price-weight-size-performance leaders. Add a few more good, small and cheap pancake primes (e.g. 12mm/4.0, 50/1.8, 80mm/2.8) and a 60/2.8 macro and everythinv will be just wonderful.

That makes sense. I'd get the regular one as a second body. I have been on and off about getting the current M anyway, but a better sensor wouldn't hurt anything except the wallet.

Maybe they would need some more lenses also, particularly primes. Someone mentioned a 55 1.8 which would make for a great portrait option.

 

[Arctic Photo]

I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.

I don't think it will be that drasticallly different from what is out now, they would be in fear of cannibalizing their DSLR sales.

Steve Jobs said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will." For me, that someone else was Olympus. I've already bought my last Canon DSLR, and if Canon doesn't come out with a Pro Mirrrrorless I've already bought my last Canon camera.

Jobs was also against a small iPad and a large iPhone.

 

[Tugela]

I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.

I don't think it will be that drasticallly different from what is out now, they would be in fear of cannibalizing their DSLR sales.

Steve Jobs said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will." For me, that someone else was Olympus. I've already bought my last Canon DSLR, and if Canon doesn't come out with a Pro Mirrrrorless I've already bought my last Canon camera.

I plan to buy two Canon dSLRs in the next 12 months, and the odds of me buying either a pro or consumer mirrorless are essentially zero.

I plan to buy dSLR in the next 12 months, and the odds of me buying either a pro or consumer mirror system are essentially zero.

I have seen the future and am no longer interested in the past.

 

[Ivan Muller]

Lets hope it has the new 7d2 sensor plus an EVF, or at least a 'clip on' viewfinder....

 

[AvTvM]

pro enough never to sell?
these sell is such small quantities why would canon even bother?
I don't even think the Fuji Xt1 even makes a blip on bcn's japan rankings let alone anywhere else.
I mean, here's a news flash .. the people that hang on in dpreview, cr forums .. aren't the mass buying public. while it's certainly good to tailor to us if you have no market (like sony, Fuji,etc) does .. it's not exactly profitable for Canon or Nikon to migrate R&D away from other areas, nor does it build an installed base in the lens mount.
MILC / Small FF is even more against what canon is saying they wish to do with MILC - which is to get it even smaller.

Japan is a different market, full of gadget-lovers. Things have to be tiny and shiny. Functionality is not so important, as long as something is "brand new", "cute" and available in 16 different colors or perfume-bottle shaped.

In Europe the market segment with disposable income to spend on photo gear values functionality, control/UI and perfomance over everything else. That's why we like to buy Audi, BMW, Mercedes cars and "higher end" cameras plus good lenses.

Fuji XT-1 and Olympus OMD's and Panasonic GH-# are selling very well in german speaking Europe ... and lots of "Canon and Nikon leakers" towards both systems, but more towards Fuji ... due to sensor size [APS-C vs. mFT].

In the US there may still be a bit of "the bigger it is, the better it is" [DSLR >> compact Mirrorless] sentiment, but most prosumers have learnt by now that it ain't necessarily so. 8)

Fuji XT-1 has not made any impact in the US yet ... since it is only shipping now: http://photorumors.com/2014/11/17/fujifilm-x-t1-mirrorless-camera-now-shipping/

I expect mirrorless sales to be quite strong during Black Friday season with all those massive discounts on offer.
http://photorumors.com/2014/11/17/significant-discounts-offered-by-almost-all-camera-manufacturers/

 

[Marsu42]

Lets hope it has the new 7d2 sensor plus an EVF, or at least a 'clip on' viewfinder....

Sooner or later Canon will cash in on their dual pixel af advantage, it's just a question of getting the software and computing power right so a touchscreen live view and evf af is up to consumer demands.

They don't seem to be there yet and things probably don't work out as planned as the huge "Asia only M2" embarrassment shows. Few people would have bet a world-wide M3 would take so much time to be released, leaving people with the only choice of buying and already obsoleted camera.

Steve Jobs said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will."

Btw I doubt a Rebel will get the 7d2's sensor soon as they'd instantly devaluate the 70d - Canon doesn't share Job's wisdom. And *if* there's a Rebel with the 7d2's sensor it will be severely limited not to cannibalize.

 

[Lee Jay]

I hope it has the size and controls of the Fuji X-T1, has the 7D2 sensor, a swivel screen, and lots of videocentric features.

I don't think it will be that drasticallly different from what is out now, they would be in fear of cannibalizing their DSLR sales.

Steve Jobs said: "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will." For me, that someone else was Olympus. I've already bought my last Canon DSLR, and if Canon doesn't come out with a Pro Mirrrrorless I've already bought my last Canon camera.

I plan to buy two Canon dSLRs in the next 12 months, and the odds of me buying either a pro or consumer mirrorless are essentially zero.

I plan to buy dSLR in the next 12 months, and the odds of me buying either a pro or consumer mirror system are essentially zero.

I have seen the future and am no longer interested in the past.

A dSLR has a mirror, by definition.

 

[Zv]

pro enough never to sell?
these sell is such small quantities why would canon even bother?
I don't even think the Fuji Xt1 even makes a blip on bcn's japan rankings let alone anywhere else.
I mean, here's a news flash .. the people that hang on in dpreview, cr forums .. aren't the mass buying public. while it's certainly good to tailor to us if you have no market (like sony, Fuji,etc) does .. it's not exactly profitable for Canon or Nikon to migrate R&D away from other areas, nor does it build an installed base in the lens mount.
MILC / Small FF is even more against what canon is saying they wish to do with MILC - which is to get it even smaller.

Japan is a different market, full of gadget-lovers. Things have to be tiny and shiny. Functionality is not so important, as long as something is "brand new", "cute" and available in 16 different colors or perfume-bottle shaped.

I think that is a little bit of an over simplified and perhaps stereotypical view of the Japanese market. I don't disagree with you fully, you certainly have a point about the "cute" and "different colors" thing but that doesn't represent the majority. They do tend to follow trends and when something becomes trendy almost everyone ends up owning it. Like the iPhone.

When it comes to cameras though things are a bit more traditional as this is the land of cameras after all. I still see a whole lot of DSLRs , in black kicking about. Way more than colorful mirrorless cameras. Spotting an EOS M is a fun game for me and I get excited when someone else has one! I'll admit it has mainly been women that have owned them and sometimes I feel like shouting "my other camera is a 6D! Honest!"

 

[jypfoto]

pro enough never to sell?
these sell is such small quantities why would canon even bother?
I don't even think the Fuji Xt1 even makes a blip on bcn's japan rankings let alone anywhere else.
I mean, here's a news flash .. the people that hang on in dpreview, cr forums .. aren't the mass buying public. while it's certainly good to tailor to us if you have no market (like sony, Fuji,etc) does .. it's not exactly profitable for Canon or Nikon to migrate R&D away from other areas, nor does it build an installed base in the lens mount.
MILC / Small FF is even more against what canon is saying they wish to do with MILC - which is to get it even smaller.

Japan is a different market, full of gadget-lovers. Things have to be tiny and shiny. Functionality is not so important, as long as something is "brand new", "cute" and available in 16 different colors or perfume-bottle shaped.

In Europe the market segment with disposable income to spend on photo gear values functionality, control/UI and perfomance over everything else. That's why we like to buy Audi, BMW, Mercedes cars and "higher end" cameras plus good lenses.

Fuji XT-1 and Olympus OMD's and Panasonic GH-# are selling very well in german speaking Europe ... and lots of "Canon and Nikon leakers" towards both systems, but more towards Fuji ... due to sensor size [APS-C vs. mFT].

In the US there may still be a bit of "the bigger it is, the better it is" [DSLR >> compact Mirrorless] sentiment, but most prosumers have learnt by now that it ain't necessarily so. 8)

Fuji XT-1 has not made any impact in the US yet ... since it is only shipping now: http://photorumors.com/2014/11/17/fujifilm-x-t1-mirrorless-camera-now-shipping/

I expect mirrorless sales to be quite strong during Black Friday season with all those massive discounts on offer.
http://photorumors.com/2014/11/17/significant-discounts-offered-by-almost-all-camera-manufacturers/

That's for the Graphite edition of the X-T1, the standard X-T1 has been selling since February/March of this year, or 8-9 months ago.

Sales being strong when you have to cut the price and offer massive packages isn't a good sign. Either you were too optimistic with the asking price or your consumers just don't feel like your product has enough value for them at the asking price. For the time being Canikon has no problems with sales just by the fact that they slap their name on the outside. Other manufacturers are struggling with sales and often only move enough product when they drastically cut the price.

Look at the Panasonic GX7, it has many of the features that everyone is suggesting that the next M has. It has a EVF, it has a touch screen, tilt screen, wifi, has fast AF. It also has a nice grip, has focus peaking, has decent enough video controls. Also has a strong lens lineup behind it with the vast amount of m4/3 glass from both Panasonic and Olympus. Yet it was released at $999 and sales struggled. Panasonic went on record to say that they would be evaluating the entire line GX line. Now you can find it for $697 on B&H and I have to question how many they're selling now that it's considered 'old' tech.

 

[DRR]

But I suspect that those who demand a viewfinder etc. really haven't used the M.

Well I'm one of those people, and I own one. I'm even a pre-firesale owner.

What you call eccentricities, I call a dealbreaker. In full sun the onboard LCD is useless. You can't see anything well enough to actually frame a shot, and when you use a second hand to shade the LCD, you lose a bunch of stability holding the camera, especially since it's got that tiny useless grip so you have to "pinch" it to hold it steady. I bought the Freniac grip and that helps the grip problem, but there's no solution to the full sun problem.

It is what it is, and I can live with its limitations for the purpose I need it to serve, but I've also learned that in full sun, I just have to set it on auto, and spray and pray. If it had a decent EVF and a firmware option to change the REC button to backbutton focus I'd use it for a lot more, but right now it's my "oh I probably won't need a camera" camera.

 

[TWI by Dustin Abbott]

I'm with those that think that some kind of EVF is important. In many settings the LCD is fine, but as some have pointed out, in bright sunlight it's value is completely undone. Furthermore, my reviewing of lenses longer than the 55mm limit that existed before have made me realize how difficult telephoto shooting is with a LCD only. It is a jittery, imprecise experience. The 55-200 STM and the Tamron 18-200 highlight the need for an EVF.

My other priority would be the DPAF. That would help address the other issue shooting telephoto (AF speed and accuracy) and make the camera more well rounded.

I am actually consistently impressed with the sensor on the M. I recently used a 60D for a review and the RAW files out of the M were much cleaner than the 60D files. I like the camera enough that I certainly would consider investing in a worthy upgrade. I also think the lenses made so far for the system are "pro" enough - they just need to fill some of the holes in the lineup. A true macro lens and a good 50mm would be a great start.

 

[crashpc]

Btw I doubt a Rebel will get the 7d2's sensor soon as they'd instantly devaluate the 70d - Canon doesn't share Job's wisdom. And *if* there's a Rebel with the 7d2's sensor it will be severely limited not to cannibalize.

Actually, I think it´s possible even absolutelly opposite way. It took time, but there was 70D after 7D, with some better specs and better sensor. This can happen with EOS mirrorless easily. They can not only put the same sensor in, they can even put better one in there, if they cripple the camera enaugh, and let 1) the old sensor in dust 2) sell generally good camera with great AF, which wouldn´t be eaten by something with 5FPS and poor (not slow) AF, ergonomics and stuff. It´s doable, and I´d buy it for smaller size and better sensor, while for BIFs there wouldn´t be any other way than 7D II...

 

[Marsu42]

Actually, I think it´s possible even absolutelly opposite way. It took time, but there was 70D after 7D, with some better specs and better sensor.

I doubt the 7d2 update was going as planned, that's why there were so many rumors around for a long time and the 2.0 firmware update for the 7d1 prolonging its life - a rather unusual move for Canon. Imho they didn't have the tech ready for a 7d2 as soon as they wished to, but released a 70d comprised which is essentially a modified 7d1 like the 6d is a modified 5d2.

Probably it's also a question of sensor production, i.e. if they can just do a drop-in update of the 70d process to 7d2 or if there is some different processing in a different fab involved. The 70d seems like the last evolution of the 18mp line to me, while at least the "quantum efficiency" data for the 7d2 suggests they indeed changed something.