A Real EOS M Replacement Coming Soon? [CR1]

[rrcphoto]

pro enough never to sell?
these sell is such small quantities why would canon even bother?
I don't even think the Fuji Xt1 even makes a blip on bcn's japan rankings let alone anywhere else.
I mean, here's a news flash .. the people that hang on in dpreview, cr forums .. aren't the mass buying public. while it's certainly good to tailor to us if you have no market (like sony, Fuji,etc) does .. it's not exactly profitable for Canon or Nikon to migrate R&D away from other areas, nor does it build an installed base in the lens mount.
MILC / Small FF is even more against what canon is saying they wish to do with MILC - which is to get it even smaller.

Japan is a different market, full of gadget-lovers. Things have to be tiny and shiny. Functionality is not so important, as long as something is "brand new", "cute" and available in 16 different colors or perfume-bottle shaped.

In Europe the market segment with disposable income to spend on photo gear values functionality, control/UI and perfomance over everything else. That's why we like to buy Audi, BMW, Mercedes cars and "higher end" cameras plus good lenses.

Fuji XT-1 and Olympus OMD's and Panasonic GH-# are selling very well in german speaking Europe ... and lots of "Canon and Nikon leakers" towards both systems, but more towards Fuji ... due to sensor size [APS-C vs. mFT].

In the US there may still be a bit of "the bigger it is, the better it is" [DSLR >> compact Mirrorless] sentiment, but most prosumers have learnt by now that it ain't necessarily so. 8)

Fuji XT-1 has not made any impact in the US yet ... since it is only shipping now: http://photorumors.com/2014/11/17/fujifilm-x-t1-mirrorless-camera-now-shipping/

if you think you know the market - and you just think the X-T1 is shipping / selling now - you have a problem. that's the graphite model.

CIPA suggests that only around 50,000 MILC units are shipped into NA each month. Only 30,000 units shipped into NA September 2014 against 350K DSLR's.

Yeah there may be black Friday sales - that's just the point. MILC's are selling when they are cost cut down and sold off as bargains.

The NEX-7 was a great seller over in NA here when? when it was slashed as 40% off after the A6000 came out. the A6000 started to move .. when? when they cut the price down further.

Meanwhile - canon and Nikon are happily selling D750's and 7D Mark II's for full retail pricing at greater volumes.

and we're not even talking about X-T1's.

 

[rrcphoto]

Actually, I think it´s possible even absolutelly opposite way. It took time, but there was 70D after 7D, with some better specs and better sensor.

I doubt the 7d2 update was going as planned, that's why there were so many rumors around for a long time and the 2.0 firmware update for the 7d1 prolonging its life - a rather unusual move for Canon. Imho they didn't have the tech ready for a 7d2 as soon as they wished to, but released a 70d comprised which is essentially a modified 7d1 like the 6d is a modified 5d2.

Probably it's also a question of sensor production, i.e. if they can just do a drop-in update of the 70d process to 7d2 or if there is some different processing in a different fab involved. The 70d seems like the last evolution of the 18mp line to me, while at least the "quantum efficiency" data for the 7d2 suggests they indeed changed something.

well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.

 

[Tugela]

Actually, I think it´s possible even absolutelly opposite way. It took time, but there was 70D after 7D, with some better specs and better sensor.

I doubt the 7d2 update was going as planned, that's why there were so many rumors around for a long time and the 2.0 firmware update for the 7d1 prolonging its life - a rather unusual move for Canon. Imho they didn't have the tech ready for a 7d2 as soon as they wished to, but released a 70d comprised which is essentially a modified 7d1 like the 6d is a modified 5d2.

Probably it's also a question of sensor production, i.e. if they can just do a drop-in update of the 70d process to 7d2 or if there is some different processing in a different fab involved. The 70d seems like the last evolution of the 18mp line to me, while at least the "quantum efficiency" data for the 7d2 suggests they indeed changed something.

I doubt that even the current 7D2 is what they wanted, it is what they had to go with. IMO they had something like the 70D in mind originally for the 7D2, then it became obvious that the 4K revolution was arriving in 2014. At some point in mid/late 2012 I think they stopped and tried to redevelop their 7D2 program for that, while releasing much of their efforts up to that point as the 70D. But they failed to get the 4K technology moving forward on schedule adequate for the revised 7D2, so to cut their losses they released their original 7D2 concept, which is essentially a 70D with a better engineered body.

The real revised 7D2 tech is likely still in development, so I would not be at all surprised if a 7D3 arrives in a year or so.

Basically they had a big fumble when they failed to have the foresight to anticipate the arrival of 4K video, and you can see this in both their camera and camcorder lines, where it is very clear that something dramatic happened internally at Canon in mid/late 2012 that caused them to panic. Their product development plans have been a mess ever since and they are on the back foot relative to competitors such as Sony and Panasonic.

 

[Marsu42]

well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.

Good point, I had forgotten about that.

The real revised 7D2 tech is likely still in development, so I would not be at all surprised if a 7D3 arrives in a year or so.

I doubt it, Canon has a reputation for not obsoleting their premium cameras in quick succession to protect their customer's investment.

Basically they had a big fumble when they failed to have the foresight to anticipate the arrival of 4K video, and you can see this in both their camera and camcorder lines, where it is very clear that something dramatic happened internally at Canon in mid/late 2012 that caused them to panic. Their product development plans have been a mess ever since and they are on the back foot relative to competitors such as Sony and Panasonic.

Interesting theory. I don't do video myself and thus 4k isn't on my mind at all - and the video crowd seems to move away from hybrid dslr solutions anyway. What I do predict is Canon trying to merge stills and video, i.e. basically grabbing stills from 4k (or higher) video and af'ing with their dual pixel af. This would not give you ~10fps while wearing down your mirror, but maybe 120fps at a resolution still sufficient for many purposes.

 

[rrcphoto]

well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.

Good point, I had forgotten about that.

The real revised 7D2 tech is likely still in development, so I would not be at all surprised if a 7D3 arrives in a year or so.

I doubt it, Canon has a reputation for not obsoleting their premium cameras in quick succession to protect their customer's investment.

Basically they had a big fumble when they failed to have the foresight to anticipate the arrival of 4K video, and you can see this in both their camera and camcorder lines, where it is very clear that something dramatic happened internally at Canon in mid/late 2012 that caused them to panic. Their product development plans have been a mess ever since and they are on the back foot relative to competitors such as Sony and Panasonic.

Interesting theory. I don't do video myself and thus 4k isn't on my mind at all - and the video crowd seems to move away from hybrid dslr solutions anyway. What I do predict is Canon trying to merge stills and video, i.e. basically grabbing stills from 4k (or higher) video and af'ing with their dual pixel af. This would not give you ~10fps while wearing down your mirror, but maybe 120fps at a resolution still sufficient for many purposes.

I don't think TI's DSP that canon uses in DIGIC supported 4K until last year - DiGiC 6 was out / developed way before then.

actually I stand corrected.
the current TI DSP's do NOT support 4K. any 4K related work has to be done off chip and using a third party encoder chip.

(which would seem to indicate that there's more underneath the hood of the 1DC)

 

[fxk]

I'll have to wait and see. [CR1 or not] Canon has a poor track record with the M.

I do hope they do make a "pro" version - I have the three lenses, and like the camera concept - the execution is somewhat off.

Someone noted the viewfinder useless in sunlight. Too true. I gone to carrying a Hoodman-like device so I can use the camera outdoors and at eye level. Kind of defeats the size advantage, though weighs next to nothing. A good EVF that can also mount a flash - one "smart" hot shoe won't cut it.

Now the camera is basically useful (with the addition of the Hoodman) which also solves inadvertently touching the touch screen. Next is the dial under the left thumb needs some type of lock - settings are different each time I pick the camera up - which slows the operation.

With a couple tweaks using full-sized photographers (size xxl glove) for input, this could be a very fine camera platform, indeed.

So one does not get the wrong impression, the ability to mount all my EF lenses, and all my old Leica glass was some of the major selling points - and the ability to fit in my motorcycle luggage without sucking up too much space.
frank

 

[lw]

Not really sure why people see the 70D/7DMKII dual-pixel sensor as the savior of the M and make it able to compete with the best mirrorless cameras out there.

The biggest criticism of the M has been AF performance in comparison to other mirrorless cameras that can rival conventional PDAF DSLRs.
Though the dual-pixel sensor improves the live-view AF of Canon DSLRs it still comes nowhere near their PDAF performance, not the performance of mirrorless cameras.
See the performance figures for the 70D on http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-70d/canon-70dA6.HTM
The Canon 70D's AF lag time in Live View mode was quite a bit longer than when using the optical viewfinder, and slower than most mirrorless cameras, however it was faster than average for Live View on a DSLR.

It will be an improvement on the M of course, but don't expect it to be billed as a OMD beater in the AF stakes.

Of course, AF performance is not the sole criteria for judging a camera...

Disclaimer: I own both an M and a 70D - so am not some mirrorless fanboy here to knock Canon.

 

[Vikmnilu]

As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.

Now the question is how long do we have to wait?

Cheers!
Victor

 

[Lee Jay]

As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.

Now the question is how long do we have to wait?

Cheers!
Victor

Well, since the M lenses are all crop-sensor lenses, I'd say a long, long time. Maybe forever.

 

[Zv]

As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.

Now the question is how long do we have to wait?

Cheers!
Victor

For landscapes the EOS M + 11-22 is a pretty good alternative for hiking. The IS makes it really useful for those sunset and blue hour shots. Plus if you need a tripod a much smaller and lighter one is all you really need. If you shoot RAW you'll not notice a huge difference between the end result (after PP) of this set up and FF. It surprised me how good the IQ from the M actually is.

The closest lightest FF equivalent of the above combo is a Sony A7 / or 6D with a EF 16-35 f/4L IS. I'll let you calculate how much the difference in cost is. You have to ask yourself are you getting that much better IQ? Better - yes but ten times better? No way.

 

[rrcphoto]

As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.

Now the question is how long do we have to wait?

Cheers!
Victor

forever?

not to mention if you wanted a lightweight option APS-C or larger, nothing will get you there cheaper or lighter than an M with the 11-22mm. All three EF-M zooms combined with body I believe weigh in at less than 2.5lbs - that's 11mm to 200mm.

why would you want full frame which increases that weight dramatically?

 

[mirrorless]

I'm afraid that this 'new' Eos M will be just a minor facelift.. no integrated evf, no control wheels, nothing special from IQ perspective.
But.. as long as it's not announced there's still some hope.

 

[Tugela]

well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.

Good point, I had forgotten about that.

The real revised 7D2 tech is likely still in development, so I would not be at all surprised if a 7D3 arrives in a year or so.

I doubt it, Canon has a reputation for not obsoleting their premium cameras in quick succession to protect their customer's investment.

Basically they had a big fumble when they failed to have the foresight to anticipate the arrival of 4K video, and you can see this in both their camera and camcorder lines, where it is very clear that something dramatic happened internally at Canon in mid/late 2012 that caused them to panic. Their product development plans have been a mess ever since and they are on the back foot relative to competitors such as Sony and Panasonic.

Interesting theory. I don't do video myself and thus 4k isn't on my mind at all - and the video crowd seems to move away from hybrid dslr solutions anyway. What I do predict is Canon trying to merge stills and video, i.e. basically grabbing stills from 4k (or higher) video and af'ing with their dual pixel af. This would not give you ~10fps while wearing down your mirror, but maybe 120fps at a resolution still sufficient for many purposes.

I don't think TI's DSP that canon uses in DIGIC supported 4K until last year - DiGiC 6 was out / developed way before then.

actually I stand corrected.
the current TI DSP's do NOT support 4K. any 4K related work has to be done off chip and using a third party encoder chip.

(which would seem to indicate that there's more underneath the hood of the 1DC)

The 1DC probably does it's encoding in software rather than hardware. The consumer products do all of their encoding in hardware, so you are stuck with HD if you use a DIGIC 6 or lower. Any Canon consumer product that does 4K will probably have a DIGIC 7 processor in it.

The dual processor products should be able to handle software encoding though, provided that they have adequate bandwidth internally and the camera design can deal with the thermal envelope.

 

[Vikmnilu]

As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.

Now the question is how long do we have to wait?

Cheers!
Victor

For landscapes the EOS M + 11-22 is a pretty good alternative for hiking. The IS makes it really useful for those sunset and blue hour shots. Plus if you need a tripod a much smaller and lighter one is all you really need. If you shoot RAW you'll not notice a huge difference between the end result (after PP) of this set up and FF. It surprised me how good the IQ from the M actually is.

The closest lightest FF equivalent of the above combo is a Sony A7 / or 6D with a EF 16-35 f/4L IS. I'll let you calculate how much the difference in cost is. You have to ask yourself are you getting that much better IQ? Better - yes but ten times better? No way.

Thanks Zv for your input!

I actually thought about the EOS M some time ago, but still does not convince me. Even at a shop today took a look at it, but....
I forgot to mention that I also like to shoot stars and northern lights and thus a high iso performance is convenient. I am not convinced at all about the ISO in crop cameras. I bought a 550D for my gf and I was actually surprised at the very good IQ, just that the high iso is very bad. I also like the perspective of wide lenses for landscapes, stars and northern lights (have a sigma 12 24mm) , so for that matter a FF is the way to go. I also kind of got hooked to L lenses , at least if I can afford them, which is not always. I'd rather dont buy anhting if it is not L, but maybe I am wrong.

maybe not the M but seriously thinking in a 6D. Thought some time ago about the Sony A7 but still not 100% sure about lens compatibility.

Well, anyway, now in the process to get rid of the old 24 70 2.8 that weights darn too much, planning to go for version II. If Iwould not need 2.8 I would buy the f4, but the aperture has been nice, overall. Other alternatives are the 16-35mm 2.8 but maybe wait.

Also trying to sell a 24mm 1.4L II but difficult to sell in Finland for the price I want, people go for the zooms instead in most of the cases.

Well, maybe I should open a thread myself

Cheers from Finland!!!

Victor

 

[Tugela]

well there was the earthquake and tsunami that hit a fair amount of canon facilities including R&D and manufacturing.

Good point, I had forgotten about that.

The real revised 7D2 tech is likely still in development, so I would not be at all surprised if a 7D3 arrives in a year or so.

I doubt it, Canon has a reputation for not obsoleting their premium cameras in quick succession to protect their customer's investment.

Basically they had a big fumble when they failed to have the foresight to anticipate the arrival of 4K video, and you can see this in both their camera and camcorder lines, where it is very clear that something dramatic happened internally at Canon in mid/late 2012 that caused them to panic. Their product development plans have been a mess ever since and they are on the back foot relative to competitors such as Sony and Panasonic.

Interesting theory. I don't do video myself and thus 4k isn't on my mind at all - and the video crowd seems to move away from hybrid dslr solutions anyway. What I do predict is Canon trying to merge stills and video, i.e. basically grabbing stills from 4k (or higher) video and af'ing with their dual pixel af. This would not give you ~10fps while wearing down your mirror, but maybe 120fps at a resolution still sufficient for many purposes.

But that is exactly what they did in their camcorder line in 2013. If you recall, the G20 was released at CES in 2013, then just 3 months later they released it's successor (the G30) at NAB. Anyone who bought a G20, which is not a cheap camera as camcorders go, would have good reason to be just a little peeved by that. There is no reason to think that they would not do the same with the 7D2.

My theory in early 2014, when it became clear that 4K was arriving that year in consumer products, was that the G30 was originally planned for a mid 2014 release, but that development was stopped and the camera released immediately in 2013 to recover investment, so that they could do a 4K G40 in 2014 instead. But that got bogged down in development so it did not happen in 2014. The 7D2 probably had the same development issues that the G40 had (since both would require a new DIGIC processor to handle 4K). The 7D2 that came to market would then have been the original concept that had been shelved to make room for 4K. If that is the case then a 7D3 will probably arrive in the second half of 2015 or early 2016. Both the 5D4 and 6D2 will almost certainly come with the features that should have been in the 7D2 since they will have had enough time to get the new processors ready by then. They will probably come in 2015. I think we will see the G40 (along with the pro versions) arrive in 2015 as well.

The problem is that by then the competition will be into their second generation in the 4K revolution, and will Canon have caught up with that by then?

 

[Vikmnilu]

As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.

Now the question is how long do we have to wait?

Cheers!
Victor

forever?

not to mention if you wanted a lightweight option APS-C or larger, nothing will get you there cheaper or lighter than an M with the 11-22mm. All three EF-M zooms combined with body I believe weigh in at less than 2.5lbs - that's 11mm to 200mm.

why would you want full frame which increases that weight dramatically?

Hei rrcphoto,

I think at some point, that may be (yes) far away in time, canon will release a FF mirrorless. If Sony has done it, so will Canon, I think they will have customers if they keep the good work.

You are the second person that recommends the M, maybe I should take a deeper look at it Is the 11-22mm comparable to a L lens.... ? I guess not, although may be very good.. i am hooked t L lenses, although they are expensive. i guess I cannot have it all....

I think going with zooms and maybe 6D in some time will make it. I have the lightest 70 200 L which I love and planning to keep or upgrade to the 70 300mm L which I like because of the extra reach and weight, although a bit bigger than the 70 200L f4.

Cheers from Finland!

Victor

 

[rrcphoto]

As soon as Canon releases a full frame EOS M or similar mirrorless, they have me onboard with the M system. Of course assuming a similar IQ as the modern full frame DSRL cameras. For landscapes and general photography I will trade my 5D mark II for a much lighter mirrorless, any time (hiking is getting harder with all the weight of the camera + lenses).
then for wildlife and some sports I do, 7D mark II with tripod/monopod wouldo do.

Now the question is how long do we have to wait?

Cheers!
Victor

forever?

not to mention if you wanted a lightweight option APS-C or larger, nothing will get you there cheaper or lighter than an M with the 11-22mm. All three EF-M zooms combined with body I believe weigh in at less than 2.5lbs - that's 11mm to 200mm.

why would you want full frame which increases that weight dramatically?

Hei rrcphoto,

I think at some point, that may be (yes) far away in time, canon will release a FF mirrorless. If Sony has done it, so will Canon, I think they will have customers if they keep the good work.

You are the second person that recommends the M, maybe I should take a deeper look at it Is the 11-22mm comparable to a L lens.... ? I guess not, although may be very good.. i am hooked t L lenses, although they are expensive. i guess I cannot have it all....

well the 11-22mm EF-M until the 16-35/4 came out this year I would have easily said was canon's best ultrawide.

pound for pound it's not that far off the 16-35/4 - and even the MTF's would suggest that. DPP's DLO also helps with this lens as well, making the comparison and what you can really get out of it even a smaller difference.

however as with most crop cameras - you have to work harder in post processing to get your max out of it.

and the EF-M is only 400 USD - the M2 plus three lens kit can be had for around 1K.

high ISO - yeah, it's probably 2/3's of a stop off of the 7DII's which makes it around 1 2/3's stop or so off of 5D II .

Another lens - the 12mm 2.0 Samyang may be one you want for nightscapes - like it's 14mm big brother very little coma and pretty sharp wide open, and at 2.0 and good wide open, would give you around a stop more than you could get from a full frame lens that wide - and is still rather small.

 

[rrcphoto]

I'm afraid that this 'new' Eos M will be just a minor facelift.. no integrated evf, no control wheels, nothing special from IQ perspective.

it would be difficult to do what you want and maintain it's size. It's nearly the smallest APS-C based MILC. and is if you consider it has a a 3:2 aspect ratio screen versus a smaller photographic 16:9 that most are using.

the only one as small as the M2 is the NEX-C3 and it is as stripped down as the M2 is.

if canon maintans the size as the primary importance - it probably will lack from the control wheel and evf aspect (perhaps gaining the G1xII's external) simply because there's really no room to put the stuff.

I'm hoping for something like the G7x body with the grip from the G1XII , the 70D sensor (7DII's would be swell) and a host of small annoying firmware fixes.

 

[lw]

The biggest criticism of the M has been AF performance in comparison to other mirrorless cameras that can rival conventional PDAF DSLRs.

Seems reasonable to me to assume that PDAF that is sensor based and found in more recent Canon DSLRs would also be found in any newer EOS-M - with perhaps even better algorithms behind it to deliver better AF than prior MILC cameras.

You didn't seem to read the rest of my post.

The 70D and 7DMKII don't do that in live view, so why will the next M? Unless you are hopeful that Canon will release an even newer Dual Pixel sensor with more on-sensor PDAF capability. But not sure they would give an M a better sensor than their flagship APS-C camera...

 

[rrcphoto]

The biggest criticism of the M has been AF performance in comparison to other mirrorless cameras that can rival conventional PDAF DSLRs.

Seems reasonable to me to assume that PDAF that is sensor based and found in more recent Canon DSLRs would also be found in any newer EOS-M - with perhaps even better algorithms behind it to deliver better AF than prior MILC cameras.

You didn't seem to read the rest of my post.

The 70D and 7DMKII don't do that in live view, so why will the next M? Unless you are hopeful that Canon will release an even newer Dual Pixel sensor with more on-sensor PDAF capability. But not sure they would give an M a better sensor than their flagship APS-C camera...

the 7D Mark II has far more tweaking available to it for PDAF settings, so it's obvious that canon is still actively augmenting it. it's not the same as the 70D.

From the 7D Mark II literature:

New DAF features include user-selectable adjustments for Movie Servo AF Speed and Movie Servo AF Tracking Sensitivity. Additionally, overall focusing speed, face detection performance, and performance in low light and with low-contrast subjects have been improved over previous Canon models

I would imagine DiGiC 6's increased performance has alot to do with it.

also I believe when ML was doing the EOS-M breakdown, they found out that the liveview framerate was cranked up more than the normal DSLR one (i recall one statement as such from them on that) - and canon even admitted that with the original EOS-M firmware version 2.0 they redid algorithms.

there's nothing stopping canon from cranking up the fps on liveview (which makes contrast detect work quicker) and also continually improving PDAF algorithms.