A Surprise Cinema EOS Announcement for Photokina? [CR1]

[Tugela]

Keeping it "vague", I think Canon really needs to restrategize their product roadmap to stay competitive with video capable cameras like the GH4 and a7s. With the 1DC and C500 being their 4K shooters at $10k and $20k, how could they possibly do a rumored 5DIV with our sought after 4K video offered at a fraction of the price without crumbling the demand for their high end cinema lineup? Who would be buying a 1DC if the 5DIV competes with it in a smaller form factor at a significantly better price?

The problem is they're sooo heavily invested in their lineup as it stands now. It's going to be a serious challenge for them to shift towards the 4K consumer/prosumer demands. They've spent years and millions developing their lineup as it is now.

With a grain of salt, I think I read someone mention Canon's video-centric customers only making up about 10-20% of their total customer base. So I wouldn't expect them to rush to deliver miracles. Not to mention their current cameras are still selling like hot cakes, so there's no financial burden either. The burden really only exists in meeting customer's high expectations and desires, something large corporations don't always have the luxury of doing.

Canon obviously still reigns in as a major heavy weight, and they definitely deserve it. The EF lens lineup is arguably one of the best in the world. If Panasonic and Sony lens offerings caught up with Canon, they'd be in some serious trouble. But until then, I don't think we'll see landslide shifts in Canon's strategy unfortunately.

I LOVE my Canon system. I've considered going GH4 or a7s for video, but stills work continues to take up half or more of my gigs. Canon's cinema lineup still is very very good, just not the "best" (subjective of course). The DPAF is definitely a step in the right direction.

As far as this CR1 rumor vaguely, I'd be thrilled to see some Mark II's of the C100, C300, and C500 announced or discussed. Those cameras are still beasts that produce beautiful images. Again, I'm doubtful they are being met with the need to replace them, but development and release in maybe late 2015 would be very exciting

It seems like they'll need to step up the cinema line SUBSTANTIALLY in order to make some room for their EOS line to grow into 4K shooters packing as much of a punch as the GH4 and a7s. That was a bit of rant haha. Just my opinion of course... any thoughts or corrections to my understanding of this situation?

Looking at the rumors and the product release sequence over the last two years, I am beginning to think that Canon was caught flatfooted by the arrival of 4K in the consumer world, and frantically tried to catch up but fumbled and dropped the ball in the process.

No doubt they will catch up eventually, but one wonders how much damage they will have incurred to their mark in the process.

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

Interesting rumor. Cinema Eos on Photokina? If it's true and we see a development announcment, then it's clearly designed to push down the ridiculously high interest/pre-orders of the just-announced Sony FS7. That FS7 just disrupts the market, it's clearly the end of the current C300/1Dc/C100 sales, therefore they will HAVE to respond very soon.

If anyone is not following the FS7 it:

-S35 sensor inside the F5/FS700 (therefore absolutely lovely image and very sensitive)
-Records 4K 10bit 4:2:2 XAVC internal like the 30K $ F55
-Records 180fps at 1080p and 60p at 4K
-Outputs 4K raw at 60fps and 2K raw at 240fps to external recorder
-It comes with everything ready to shoot, a nice EVF, shoulder pad, articulating grip, internal ND filters,
-It's the most well designed camera I've seen in years
-It's 8000$. Half the C300 and just 1.5K over the C100!
...

Does the FS7 come in a PL mount version?

No just Sony E-mount. But the thing is that the E-mount has a very shallow flange distance, therefore can be adapted to any mount including PL with very inexpensive third-party adapters.

With the Metabones speedbootser, you can even go full frame (in field of view and dof - effectively full frame) with this camera with Canon EF glass whilst on the C line your stuck at APS-C with EF lenses.

It's just a winning calculation in my opinion. It will take the video market by storm.

 

[peederj]

Of course this rumor is the panicked response to the FS7...trying to stave off the inevitable mass migration unless Canon has something else to say. Sony is dismantling Canon piece by piece, and Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, Zeiss, and Samyang have put a big dent in their glass sales. What can Canon do?

Key to the FS7 is the E mount, it can be adapted to anything bigger including PL, Canon, and Nikon. The Metabones Speedbooster (now with a high end Ultra version) gives super 35 a full-frame look and speed. The CX00's still have better low-light than the FS7 even though they are super 35, but not as good as the A7s low-light. However the A7s has miserable rolling shutter.

Combining all of these factors it's clear the sensor Canon must develop for the next Cinema line is full frame with a global shutter option. Some will still prefer super 35 with PL mount but that's not Canon's glass strength. EOS-M mount failed bitterly and can't host full-frame. No Speedbooster can be used with the EF flange distance. So Canon has to provide a full frame option for full frame look and low-light capability...there's no choice. And because it's so slow to read out of such a sensor it needs global shutter to avoid the jello.

That might preclude HFR so they may have an HFR camera that's super 35 and does at least 1080p240 and hopefully 4K120 or at least 4K60 like the FS7 can. Canon also must settle on a storage format (Cfast?) and codec (AVC-Uktra?) that has likely been holding them up all this time.

I like Canon but Sony has better offerings in every form factor other than the 1DX. The RX series, the A7's, the FS7...they have bet the company on video and it's a formidable company. One hopes Canon is ready to go with a new line because I couldn't recommend them anymore.

 

[Tugela]

maybe a 7dc with 4k and high frame rates? HAHAH Canon would never do anything like that.

In my opinion, this is more possible than a 5DC or even a 5D4 with 4K.

For a couple of reasons:
-Dual-Digic 6
-Professional Build
-crop-sensor is close to super 35mm
-Positioned to be perfectly below the 1DC without crippling it... and maintaining the 1DC's price-point... of course the price will be the same as 5DIII when it was announced i.e. $4K - $5K range.

Though it may cut into C100 & C300 customers, that was always a problem... because the 5DIII and/or 1DX had the same image as the C100 & C300, if not better b/c they are FF. Besides the 5DIII has magic lantern devs behind it, which excels it beyond the C100 & C300, except for the video components.

The Digic 6 hardware encoders max out at HD/60p. If they wanted to implement 4K with those processors they would have to use something like the motion JPEG system to encode the footage. That would require additional specialized hardware in the camera, which means it will be priced out of the consumer range.

I think we will not see consumer 4K from Canon until the Digic 7 processors are developed.

 

[gjones5252]

There are always post about what percentage of the market will buy a product and that determines how much a company will invest in these products. So it just stands to reason that lower end items will determine the flow of products and provide capital for the higher end product.
Sony and Panasonic have started to release some amazing and powerful low end products. Between the A7r for high megapixel small camera to the a7s at 4k or the gh4, these cameras are being bought at a large quantity. They are providing something powerful in a form and a price point previously thought out of reach. This used to be a canon mantra.
This new Sony FS7 is even another stab up the ladder for sony. I havent even heard of it until this post. These are amazing specs for a $8000 camera. This is something I would get jobs for and with specifically because it has specs that are not currently in my low end price range.
The c300 and c500 have become some peoples favorite cameras. They do a job and they do it well and accurately.
But for the majority of single shooters an 8000 dollars camera that can shoot 4k and slow motion in a good codec and take ef mount? That is powerful tool that is available.

 

[Quest for Light]

Canon must now offer a 4K option, and a 10bit option, and of course super slow motion. Perhaps in a new model, perhaps in paid firmware updates for the current line-up (that would be a major hit to Sony)

Why? 99% of content is displayed at 1080p or less, 8 bits or fewer, and not in slow motion.

It´s not only for the content, 4K is for editing purposes too.
Details, Greenscreen shots, stabilizing footage etc. all will benefit from 4K.
You can then resample to Full HD and have better quality than native FULL HD.

And how long do you use a camera?
I prefer a camera to be as futureproof as possible.
Full HD is not futureproof.

New 4K displays will be 10bit.

http://www.redsharknews.com/distribution/item/1823-4k-tv-confirmed-as-10bit

 

[Etienne]

Of course this rumor is the panicked response to the FS7...trying to stave off the inevitable mass migration unless Canon has something else to say. Sony is dismantling Canon piece by piece, and Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, Zeiss, and Samyang have put a big dent in their glass sales. What can Canon do?

Key to the FS7 is the E mount, it can be adapted to anything bigger including PL, Canon, and Nikon. The Metabones Speedbooster (now with a high end Ultra version) gives super 35 a full-frame look and speed. The CX00's still have better low-light than the FS7 even though they are super 35, but not as good as the A7s low-light. However the A7s has miserable rolling shutter.

Combining all of these factors it's clear the sensor Canon must develop for the next Cinema line is full frame with a global shutter option. Some will still prefer super 35 with PL mount but that's not Canon's glass strength. EOS-M mount failed bitterly and can't host full-frame. No Speedbooster can be used with the EF flange distance. So Canon has to provide a full frame option for full frame look and low-light capability...there's no choice. And because it's so slow to read out of such a sensor it needs global shutter to avoid the jello.

That might preclude HFR so they may have an HFR camera that's super 35 and does at least 1080p240 and hopefully 4K120 or at least 4K60 like the FS7 can. Canon also must settle on a storage format (Cfast?) and codec (AVC-Uktra?) that has likely been holding them up all this time.

I like Canon but Sony has better offerings in every form factor other than the 1DX. The RX series, the A7's, the FS7...they have bet the company on video and it's a formidable company. One hopes Canon is ready to go with a new line because I couldn't recommend them anymore.

I'm excited about these new Sony cams, but I don't think Canon is a write off. These are Sony's latest and greatest. The Canon's are several years old, this is just another leap in the never ending game of leapfrog. I am not going to start jumping back and forth between brands, and a system is much more than any one of the components, including the camera. Ultimately I think most people will have a mix of equipment from different brands. The Canon glass is still awesome, and overall on an lens to lens comparison, canon on the whole comes out looking pretty damn good for glass. Metabones (and other adaptors) is a huge bonus for Sony, because a lot of people would not even consider the likes of the A7s without the adapters. And the A7s isn't all roses either. Some are complaining that it is too small, and to make it useable requires a lot of add-ons. I'm intrigued by it, but not jumping on the bandwagon yet. I'm more intrigued by the PXW-X70.... if that thing flies through great reviews it will be my next cam, and I was considering the XF200.
BTW ... the FS7 hasn't been released, so it's a bit early to say the the Cx00 series has better low light performance. Maybe.
Personally I really hope for a killer C100 mark II: better codec, built in slomo, at least 60fps at 1080p, built in 4k, and 422 color, wifi controllable, bigger better LCD with touch screen, and, horror of horrors: full DPAF using all pixels, with face detect, touch focus, customizable touch focus pull. The C100 is the best looking form factor out there, and I hope Canon makes it deadly. This camera would be in almost everyones bag if they pull out the stops.

 

[mkabi]

maybe a 7dc with 4k and high frame rates? HAHAH Canon would never do anything like that.

In my opinion, this is more possible than a 5DC or even a 5D4 with 4K.

For a couple of reasons:
-Dual-Digic 6
-Professional Build
-crop-sensor is close to super 35mm
-Positioned to be perfectly below the 1DC without crippling it... and maintaining the 1DC's price-point... of course the price will be the same as 5DIII when it was announced i.e. $4K - $5K range.

Though it may cut into C100 & C300 customers, that was always a problem... because the 5DIII and/or 1DX had the same image as the C100 & C300, if not better b/c they are FF. Besides the 5DIII has magic lantern devs behind it, which excels it beyond the C100 & C300, except for the video components.

The Digic 6 hardware encoders max out at HD/60p. If they wanted to implement 4K with those processors they would have to use something like the motion JPEG system to encode the footage. That would require additional specialized hardware in the camera, which means it will be priced out of the consumer range.

I think we will not see consumer 4K from Canon until the Digic 7 processors are developed.

Did you know that Magic Lantern has pushed a 5DIII to do higher fps with just a single Digic 5+... I thought it can go as high as 96fps at a slightly lower resolution than 1080p (Marsu can verify that)... but think of the possibilities with 2 Digic 6 processors, not 1 but 2.

Of course, we will not see consumer 4K, at least not how Sony, Panasonic and/or Samsung is trying to push it. 4K TVs are out, but 4K content is not... Most of the world is still playing catch up with 1080p...
Remember, we are talking consumer here.. not prosumer, semi-professional and/or professional.
How many cable channels do you get that are HD? Then ask yourself how many channels are Full HD?
Where are those 4K blu-ray players? Can you get a 4K version of the Dark Knight for me?

I doubt professionals want to waste time with 4K, you need computer space, editting time... if you can do the work with half the resources and take half time on a 20 million dollar budget, save 10 million... then thats what professionals would do. Forget editting lattitude, you know how much time you are wasting in front of a computer as opposed to actually shooting?

So that leaves the prosumers and semi-professionals that want something that they have never worked with before... they get the 4K recorder and realize that their computers don't support it.

 

[transpo1]

I hope this does mean a 7DC development announcement or a C100II update. Needed specs to compete and make me buy another camera body from Canon would be-

4K
possible RAW DNG option (they'll never do that).
120fps in 720 at least (preferably 240fps in 720 and 120fps in 1080)
low light ISO sensitivity on par with 5DIII or better

Love the ergonomics of the C100/300/500 series but for functionality am heavily considering Sony at this point, especially with their S-log2 and 3 on A7S and now FS7.

 

[Khnnielsen]

I am fairly certain that there won't be a big Cinema EOS Announcement for Photokina.
IBC is going on right now(where Sony announced the FS7) and it is really the most likely to place for such an announcement.
The FS7 is interesting movie from Sony. If I had already invested in a F5/F55, then I would feel slightly pissed.

 

[Etienne]

I am fairly certain that there won't be a big Cinema EOS Announcement for Photokina.
IBC is going on right now(where Sony announced the FS7) and it is really the most likely to place for such an announcement.
The FS7 is interesting movie from Sony. If I had already invested in a F5/F55, then I would feel slightly pissed.

Philip Bloom said that. He has an F55, and he is a bit perturbed about how much he spent on it now that the FS7 is here.

 

[brianwallace21]

My hope? The announcement of a 4K over HDMI option for the C100/C300. It would, of course, require a trip to Canon service and a chunk of change but with the Atomos Shogun forthcoming it's a reasonable option. 8 bit, 4:2:2 output preserves the C500's RAW output capability.

To me, internal 4K is nice, but if you're going to through the trouble of 4K then why not shoot in ProRes, DNxHD, or CinemaDNG. For the short term, external 4K recording is going to be an easy way to add 4K capability without requiring lots of new hardware. Basically what Sony did on the a7S.

 

[gsealy]

My hope? The announcement of a 4K over HDMI option for the C100/C300. It would, of course, require a trip to Canon service and a chunk of change but with the Atomos Shogun forthcoming it's a reasonable option. 8 bit, 4:2:2 output preserves the C500's RAW output capability.

To me, internal 4K is nice, but if you're going to through the trouble of 4K then why not shoot in ProRes, DNxHD, or CinemaDNG. For the short term, external 4K recording is going to be an easy way to add 4K capability without requiring lots of new hardware. Basically what Sony did on the a7S.

It's my understanding that the C100/C300 sensor can support 4K. It's just not 'turned on'. If they were to put 4K in those cameras it would be one heck of a package. It would be a way for Canon to be instantly competitive with the other 4K cameras in the $5K range.

 

[Don Haines]

I am fairly certain that there won't be a big Cinema EOS Announcement for Photokina.
IBC is going on right now(where Sony announced the FS7) and it is really the most likely to place for such an announcement.
The FS7 is interesting movie from Sony. If I had already invested in a F5/F55, then I would feel slightly pissed.

Nothing stops them from announcing it in two different places.....

 

[that1guyy]

That's his fault for buying such expensive cameras. Renting is way smarter when it comes to high end cinema cams because of how fast technology changes.

 

[Etienne]

That's his fault for buying such expensive cameras. Renting is way smarter when it comes to high end cinema cams because of how fast technology changes.

Rental is a good option for occasional/rare use. But 10 weeks of rental and you've generally bought the camera, but don't have one.

It's usually cheaper to buy, and sell when you no longer need it. You can easily get 50% out of a good camera after a couple years use. So a C100 would cost about $2500 for two years use. $2500 would only get you 6 weeks of rental, if you rent by the week, so that's only 6 rental events. $2500 only gets you 20 days, if you rent by the day.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Interesting rumor. Cinema Eos on Photokina? If it's true and we see a development announcment, then it's clearly designed to push down the ridiculously high interest/pre-orders of the just-announced Sony FS7. That FS7 just disrupts the market, it's clearly the end of the current C300/1Dc/C100 sales, therefore they will HAVE to respond very soon.

If anyone is not following the FS7 it:

-S35 sensor inside the F5/FS700 (therefore absolutely lovely image and very sensitive)
-Records 4K 10bit 4:2:2 XAVC internal like the 30K $ F55
-Records 180fps at 1080p and 60p at 4K
-Outputs 4K raw at 60fps and 2K raw at 240fps to external recorder
-It comes with everything ready to shoot, a nice EVF, shoulder pad, articulating grip, internal ND filters,
-It's the most well designed camera I've seen in years
-It's 8000$. Half the C300 and just 1.5K over the C100!

Whilst the C300 is a lovely camera, my favourite actually, after this announcement its days are over considering it only records at 8 Bit, no 4K at all, limited to 60p at 720, this is just a different generation.

Canon must now offer a 4K option, and a 10bit option, and of course super slow motion. Perhaps in a new model, perhaps in paid firmware updates for the current line-up (that would be a major hit to Sony)

Wow thanks for filling me in. Now I see what all the fuss is about with this camera

Heck, this thing costs less than even the 1DC doesn't it? Or maybe the same?

Canon is gonna be too conservative and not push their 7D/5D or even regular 1D class video and lose that which they could've utterly 100% locked up for themselves and then squeezed in the lower top tier from the long time players.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

maybe a 7dc with 4k and high frame rates? HAHAH Canon would never do anything like that.

In my opinion, this is more possible than a 5DC or even a 5D4 with 4K.

For a couple of reasons:
-Dual-Digic 6
-Professional Build
-crop-sensor is close to super 35mm
-Positioned to be perfectly below the 1DC without crippling it... and maintaining the 1DC's price-point... of course the price will be the same as 5DIII when it was announced i.e. $4K - $5K range.

Though it may cut into C100 & C300 customers, that was always a problem... because the 5DIII and/or 1DX had the same image as the C100 & C300, if not better b/c they are FF. Besides the 5DIII has magic lantern devs behind it, which excels it beyond the C100 & C300, except for the video components.

The Digic 6 hardware encoders max out at HD/60p. If they wanted to implement 4K with those processors they would have to use something like the motion JPEG system to encode the footage. That would require additional specialized hardware in the camera, which means it will be priced out of the consumer range.

I think we will not see consumer 4K from Canon until the Digic 7 processors are developed.

What does the 1DC use to output 4k though? That uses 100% the same exact chips as the 1DX. So it only has dual digic 5+ and one digic 4 AFAIK.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

There are always post about what percentage of the market will buy a product and that determines how much a company will invest in these products. So it just stands to reason that lower end items will determine the flow of products and provide capital for the higher end product.
Sony and Panasonic have started to release some amazing and powerful low end products. Between the A7r for high megapixel small camera to the a7s at 4k or the gh4, these cameras are being bought at a large quantity. They are providing something powerful in a form and a price point previously thought out of reach. This used to be a canon mantra.
This new Sony FS7 is even another stab up the ladder for sony. I havent even heard of it until this post. These are amazing specs for a $8000 camera. This is something I would get jobs for and with specifically because it has specs that are not currently in my low end price range.
The c300 and c500 have become some peoples favorite cameras. They do a job and they do it well and accurately.
But for the majority of single shooters an 8000 dollars camera that can shoot 4k and slow motion in a good codec and take ef mount? That is powerful tool that is available.

Canon is so conservative and so into milking what they have until forced to react and so afraid of cannibalizing their higher segments that they keep being a day late and a dollar short. If they had been more afraid of being cannibalized they could've pushed forward full steam and really kept the low to mid-end revolution going with their DSLR video. Note they held back 4k from the 7D2. Let us just hope they are not so foolish, as one Canon employee (but not from DSLR division) fears, from the 5D4 as well. He claims that Canon feels that 4k is an ultra premium feature and they don't want to give it to anyone in a regular DSLR or for less than three arms and four legs.

 

[sebasti]

If Canon would bring new C series camera to Photokina directly after FS7 announcement, it would probably mean they've had this camera ready for long time but since the old cameras were selling there was no reason to bring it out. If they don't have camera ready then that again is short sightedness and simply blindness to their own short comings. While C-series has nice colours on footage and camera ergonomics are quite good for running around, specs wise these cameras were pretty much outdated when they were first released. If you say the strong sales prove otherwise I would respond that the strong sales are most likely result of the post 5D revolution and people with 5Ds maturing to move to better cameras, updating to C series simply because they already had good selection of Canon glass. I think FS7 single handedly kills whole C-series. Athough I think Canon has nicer colours where Sony feels more videoish at least uncorrected, I think the Sony's earlier cameras already had Canon beat in many many aspects for years. Releasing FS7 is like beating the guy who is already unconscious on the floor, but maybe finally Canon will get the message "Don't hold back on specs". C500 should have been able to do 4K internally to begin with. C300 should have had at least 10bit output but it really should have had internal 10bit recording and also 60p in 1080 mode. C100 should have at least had 720p60 since even DSLRs had that. Not that I ever really needed 720p60 and would have rather gone with camera that can do it in 1080, I think this just proves how protective Canon has been. Leaving 720p60 out just so that you'd have one more reason to buy C300 over C100... ridiculous.