An 50.6mp EOS-1 Body Being Explored [CR2]

ajfotofilmagem said:
Phil Lowe said:
Just curious about something...Is there any older Canon lens - like the EF100-400L - that will be able to resolve anything close to what a 50.6mp sensor can resolve, or will buying a 50.6mp camera require all new glass?
There are several old Canon lenses able to show much more detail with a 50 megapixel camera. A brief list:
<snip>
TS-E24mm F3.5L
TS-E17mm F4L
<snip>
The TS-E lenses will be key for those wanting maximum resolution and extended DOF. The diffraction limited aperture (DLA) is projected to be f/6.7, so f/16 or even f/11 won't be as usable at 50.6 as it is on the 5DII et al. Shooting with a T/S lens at f/5.6 or f/8 with tilt will be the way to give your image more DOF with a single exposure while keeping the aperture set for maximum sharpness.

I know some may chime in to explain all the technical details and limits here, but in practice, this is going to be the case. Hopefully this will push Canon to upgrade the non-L TS-E lenses (esp. the 45mm).

EDIT: Here's a good example from The-Digital-Picture:

300 f/2.8 IS II on the 1DsIII vs 7DII @ f/16

While not the most ideal example, the effect of diffraction on one of the sharpest lenses Canon makes is shocking on the 7DII (roughly same pixel pitch as 5Ds), even at f/11.
 
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mackguyver said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
Phil Lowe said:
Just curious about something...Is there any older Canon lens - like the EF100-400L - that will be able to resolve anything close to what a 50.6mp sensor can resolve, or will buying a 50.6mp camera require all new glass?
There are several old Canon lenses able to show much more detail with a 50 megapixel camera. A brief list:
<snip>
TS-E24mm F3.5L
TS-E17mm F4L
<snip>
The TS-E lenses will be key for those wanting maximum resolution and extended DOF. The diffraction limited aperture (DLA) is projected to be f/6.7, so f/16 or even f/11 won't be as usable at 50.6 as it is on the 5DII et al. Shooting with a T/S lens at f/5.6 or f/8 with tilt will be the way to give your image more DOF with a single exposure while keeping the aperture set for maximum sharpness.

I know some may chime in to explain all the technical details and limits here, but in practice, this is going to be the case. Hopefully this will push Canon to upgrade the non-L TS-E lenses (esp. the 45mm).

EDIT: Here's a good example from The-Digital-Picture:

300 f/2.8 IS II on the 1DsIII vs 7DII @ f/16

While not the most ideal example, the effect of diffraction on one of the sharpest lenses Canon makes is shocking on the 7DII (roughly same pixel pitch as 5Ds), even at f/11.
Good point.
I often reprimanded by people who say:
"more megapixel will never be worse" :-X
 
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The 1D series is targeted to fast moving events and in all kinds of weather. The professional guys that use this camera pop away hundreds and thousands of shots during even a 1 day assignment.

I recently was at a golf tournament and it was raining and on the cold side. The photographers had these beasts and it sounded like a machine gun when it fired off. These guys had to fly from hole to hole and around the greens to keep up with a particular group. It was a tough struggle that day, but they were getting paid. The bottom line for them was that the camera couldn't fail them and it had to focus quick. The camera had to withstand the elements. This is what goes into the price of the 1D and the pros are willing to pay it.

Do they need 50MP? Probably not as a lot of their work goes into online and print media. Plus they are not going to be happy with a lower frame rate and lower ISO limits. Their mode of operation is to gather lots and lots of photos and then an editor somewhere can pick the best of the best.
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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ajfotofilmagem said:
mackguyver said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
Phil Lowe said:
Just curious about something...Is there any older Canon lens - like the EF100-400L - that will be able to resolve anything close to what a 50.6mp sensor can resolve, or will buying a 50.6mp camera require all new glass?
There are several old Canon lenses able to show much more detail with a 50 megapixel camera. A brief list:
<snip>
TS-E24mm F3.5L
TS-E17mm F4L
<snip>
The TS-E lenses will be key for those wanting maximum resolution and extended DOF. The diffraction limited aperture (DLA) is projected to be f/6.7, so f/16 or even f/11 won't be as usable at 50.6 as it is on the 5DII et al. Shooting with a T/S lens at f/5.6 or f/8 with tilt will be the way to give your image more DOF with a single exposure while keeping the aperture set for maximum sharpness.

I know some may chime in to explain all the technical details and limits here, but in practice, this is going to be the case. Hopefully this will push Canon to upgrade the non-L TS-E lenses (esp. the 45mm).

EDIT: Here's a good example from The-Digital-Picture:

300 f/2.8 IS II on the 1DsIII vs 7DII @ f/16

While not the most ideal example, the effect of diffraction on one of the sharpest lenses Canon makes is shocking on the 7DII (roughly same pixel pitch as 5Ds), even at f/11.
Good point.
I reprimanded often by people who say:
"more megapixel will never be worse" :-X

It depends if you are comparing apples to oranges, or not.

The 7DII crop is enlarged over twice as much so is an effective ff equivalent to f22. Change the crop camera aperture down 1 stop and you are looking at the same actual image qualities, or, dial f11 into the comparometer and keep the FF at f16, then you will see the true effects of diffraction at the same magnification and subject output, not so very different after all.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=6&LensComp=739&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

More MP are never worse, but look at more MP at 100% and they appear worse because you are magnifying them more. Magnify things the same and the more MP will always return more detail, even after DFA's. How much more is a test I am interested to carry out when I can come across a 5DSR, but that won't be soon and I don't expect to see much difference.
 
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PureClassA said:
So if the target market is studio/landscapers then why would I spend $7000 for this camera vs $3600 for the 5DS?

A 1 series camera is a different beast altogether compared to "lesser" cameras. If my livelihood depended on a pair of camera bodies the 1 series would be my go to. The ergonomics, the weatherproofing, the battery life etc etc is in a different league.

The 1Ds III sold despite the 5D II being out which arguably had lots of advantages. I can't see why a 1Ds IV wouldn't despite the prohibitive price tag. It isn't a camera aimed at enthusiasts but rather people who will put them on their tax return.
 
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privatebydesign said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
mackguyver said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
Phil Lowe said:
Just curious about something...Is there any older Canon lens - like the EF100-400L - that will be able to resolve anything close to what a 50.6mp sensor can resolve, or will buying a 50.6mp camera require all new glass?
There are several old Canon lenses able to show much more detail with a 50 megapixel camera. A brief list:
<snip>
TS-E24mm F3.5L
TS-E17mm F4L
<snip>
The TS-E lenses will be key for those wanting maximum resolution and extended DOF. The diffraction limited aperture (DLA) is projected to be f/6.7, so f/16 or even f/11 won't be as usable at 50.6 as it is on the 5DII et al. Shooting with a T/S lens at f/5.6 or f/8 with tilt will be the way to give your image more DOF with a single exposure while keeping the aperture set for maximum sharpness.

I know some may chime in to explain all the technical details and limits here, but in practice, this is going to be the case. Hopefully this will push Canon to upgrade the non-L TS-E lenses (esp. the 45mm).

EDIT: Here's a good example from The-Digital-Picture:

300 f/2.8 IS II on the 1DsIII vs 7DII @ f/16

While not the most ideal example, the effect of diffraction on one of the sharpest lenses Canon makes is shocking on the 7DII (roughly same pixel pitch as 5Ds), even at f/11.
Good point.
I reprimanded often by people who say:
"more megapixel will never be worse" :-X

It depends if you are comparing apples to oranges, or not.

The 7DII crop is enlarged over twice as much so is an effective ff equivalent to f22. Change the crop camera aperture down 1 stop and you are looking at the same actual image qualities, or, dial f11 into the comparometer and keep the FF at f16, then you will see the true effects of diffraction at the same magnification and subject output, not so very different after all.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=6&LensComp=739&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

More MP are never worse, but look at more MP at 100% and they appear worse because you are magnifying them more. Magnify things the same and the more MP will always return more detail, even after DFA's. How much more is a test I am interested to carry out when I can come across a 5DSR, but that won't be soon and I don't expect to see much difference.

the crop should not be enlarged over 2x. the test chart should be shot at 1.6x distance, if tdp does it correctly.
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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rs said:
privatebydesign said:
Any lens will resolve more on a 50MP sensor than a 20MP one, some will resolve much closer to 50 than others but none can resolve the full 50MP.
Most will, but not all. I'd argue that a lens baby or equivalent won't gain any resolution advantage at all from >20MP

Well explain to me how a lens baby doesn't obey the laws of physics then.

System resolution can be broadly shorthanded down to this equation, it isn't perfect but pretty close.

tsr = 1/sqrt((1/lsr) ² + (1/ssr) ² )

Where tsr is total spatial resolution, lsr is lens spatial resolution, and ssr is sensor spatial resolution.

So if, for example, we have a sensor that can resolve 100 lppmm, and a lens that can resolve 100 lppmm we get this

1/sqrt((1/100) ² + (1/100) ² ) = tsr of 71 lppmm

Leave the same lens on, good or bad, and double the sensor resolution to 200 lppmm

1/sqrt((1/100) ² + (1/200) ² ) = tsr of 89 lppmm


You will notice that the system resolution, even in this simplified form, can never resolve 100% of the lowest performing portion of that system, so if a 24MP sensor is returning 80% of the potential of a Lens Baby then a 50MP sensor might return 90%, how useful that is in real life is a moot point, but it does illustrate that even the most modest lens will show increased resolution when put in front of a higher resolving sensor.
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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photonius said:
privatebydesign said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
mackguyver said:
ajfotofilmagem said:
Phil Lowe said:
Just curious about something...Is there any older Canon lens - like the EF100-400L - that will be able to resolve anything close to what a 50.6mp sensor can resolve, or will buying a 50.6mp camera require all new glass?
There are several old Canon lenses able to show much more detail with a 50 megapixel camera. A brief list:
<snip>
TS-E24mm F3.5L
TS-E17mm F4L
<snip>
The TS-E lenses will be key for those wanting maximum resolution and extended DOF. The diffraction limited aperture (DLA) is projected to be f/6.7, so f/16 or even f/11 won't be as usable at 50.6 as it is on the 5DII et al. Shooting with a T/S lens at f/5.6 or f/8 with tilt will be the way to give your image more DOF with a single exposure while keeping the aperture set for maximum sharpness.

I know some may chime in to explain all the technical details and limits here, but in practice, this is going to be the case. Hopefully this will push Canon to upgrade the non-L TS-E lenses (esp. the 45mm).

EDIT: Here's a good example from The-Digital-Picture:

300 f/2.8 IS II on the 1DsIII vs 7DII @ f/16

While not the most ideal example, the effect of diffraction on one of the sharpest lenses Canon makes is shocking on the 7DII (roughly same pixel pitch as 5Ds), even at f/11.
Good point.
I reprimanded often by people who say:
"more megapixel will never be worse" :-X

It depends if you are comparing apples to oranges, or not.

The 7DII crop is enlarged over twice as much so is an effective ff equivalent to f22. Change the crop camera aperture down 1 stop and you are looking at the same actual image qualities, or, dial f11 into the comparometer and keep the FF at f16, then you will see the true effects of diffraction at the same magnification and subject output, not so very different after all.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=6&LensComp=739&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

More MP are never worse, but look at more MP at 100% and they appear worse because you are magnifying them more. Magnify things the same and the more MP will always return more detail, even after DFA's. How much more is a test I am interested to carry out when I can come across a 5DSR, but that won't be soon and I don't expect to see much difference.

the crop should not be enlarged over 2x. the test chart should be shot at 1.6x distance, if tdp does it correctly.

Er, if you shoot something from 1.6 times the distance with the same lens and then reproduce it the same size you are enlarging it, and any IQ issues, diffraction, aberrations etc, more!

It is a 1.6 times linear enlargement, or a 1.6 x 1.6 area enlargement, which is 256% the area.
 
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Feb 8, 2013
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I think Canon is doing people a serious disfavour not putting the 50MP sensor on a 1D body.
I was specifically hoping to get a high density sensor with the extra boost to AF speed. Then consider if they put a good crop mode in.
If they effectively gave you all the abilities of the 7D2 and the 5Ds in one body, with more than double the battery life, who wouldn't want that?
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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nonac said:
i just recently had the opportunity to shoot college sports for 3 days with a 1Dx body at a Canon event. Really fell in love with the form factor of that body. I'll probably look at the Mark II iteration pretty closely.

Save a bit more and try to get a MkIII, they are much better cameras than the MkII's.
 
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privatebydesign said:
nonac said:
i just recently had the opportunity to shoot college sports for 3 days with a 1Dx body at a Canon event. Really fell in love with the form factor of that body. I'll probably look at the Mark II iteration pretty closely.

Save a bit more and try to get a MkIII, they are much better cameras than the MkII's.

Clearly he meant a 1Dx Mark II iteration, which has yet to be announced. He's in no big rush to get a 1D series right now, which means he can wait until the successor to the 1Dx arrives.
 
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Hannes said:
PureClassA said:
So if the target market is studio/landscapers then why would I spend $7000 for this camera vs $3600 for the 5DS?

A 1 series camera is a different beast altogether compared to "lesser" cameras. If my livelihood depended on a pair of camera bodies the 1 series would be my go to. The ergonomics, the weatherproofing, the battery life etc etc is in a different league.

The 1Ds III sold despite the 5D II being out which arguably had lots of advantages. I can't see why a 1Ds IV wouldn't despite the prohibitive price tag. It isn't a camera aimed at enthusiasts but rather people who will put them on their tax return.

I agree. And those guys have to have a camera that will perform and perform. 200K actuations? No problem. Once you see such guys in action then the 1D is a no-brainer.
 
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gsealy said:
I agree. And those guys have to have a camera that will perform and perform. 200K actuations? No problem. Once you see such guys in action then the 1D is a no-brainer.

Yes, I would not give up my 1D X for anything apart from a 1DX II. The battery life still amazes me (for stills at least, not so much for video). And as a camera to take pictures with it is outstanding.

In a way I really hope they do not release a 1DX Mark II until 2016 as it is an expense I do not need right now.

But frankly I am not sure they would make a 1DX S. I think the 1DX II will have more MP anyway and will most likely require CFfast or whatever they are called. USB 3.1 would be nice but I don't think that would happen.
 
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PureClassA

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Hannes said:
PureClassA said:
So if the target market is studio/landscapers then why would I spend $7000 for this camera vs $3600 for the 5DS?

A 1 series camera is a different beast altogether compared to "lesser" cameras. If my livelihood depended on a pair of camera bodies the 1 series would be my go to. The ergonomics, the weatherproofing, the battery life etc etc is in a different league.

The 1Ds III sold despite the 5D II being out which arguably had lots of advantages. I can't see why a 1Ds IV wouldn't despite the prohibitive price tag. It isn't a camera aimed at enthusiasts but rather people who will put them on their tax return.

1DX vs 5D3, I agree with you (but they are all pretty rugged and weather sealed). But a 5DS vs 1DS with the SAME sensor built for low ISOs in this day and age?? No. No way. That I can tell you won't happen. You may to pay double the price for the same thing, but most won't. Those who wanted an S model pro camera from Canon back in the line, just got got it. There would have to significant, yet untold, advantages other than that sensor in a 1DS to warrant the product. Canon would never sell enough otherwise. The 5 series is just as professional grade as the 1 in terms of build, and tons of professionals use them. They too are put on depreciation and amortization tables on tax returns.

All that said, We will see a 1DX2 which I will be extremely excited to buy.
 
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The body and the ergonomics is exactly why I won't be getting a 5Ds. I am drooling over the 50mp but it's not enough to make me switch. Specially because I rather have better dynamic range instead of more pixels and I am disappointed about that too.
I have been using 1 series cameras since 2002 and it is a different feel all together.
I am really hoping Canon doesn't forget the real pros and releases a 1Ds soon
 
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