An 50.6mp EOS-1 Body Being Explored [CR2]

[Memdroid]

It is possible the fusion of the sport and studio idea of the 1dx is taking a more serious step.
Here is a crazy idea.
RAW 50mp @6fps
mRAW1 ~35mp @ 9 fps
mRAW2/sRAW~20mp and the integrated crop modes @12 fps

I'll buy that in a heartbeat

 

[PureClassA]

The body and the ergonomics is exactly why I won't be getting a 5Ds. I am drooling over the 50mp but it's not enough to make me switch. Specially because I rather have better dynamic range instead of more pixels and I am disappointed about that too.
I have been using 1 series cameras since 2002 and it is a different feel all together.
I am really hoping Canon doesn't forget the real pros and releases a 1Ds soon

I love the 1 series too. Don't misunderstand. I have used a 1DX for many thousands of shots at hours on end during many dance recitals. BUT, Canon making TWO pro-grade "S" models with the exact same sensor, just doesn't make any fiscal sense to me. Granted Canon knows more than I do. My point in all this is that IF Canon pulled this trigger, there would have be substantially more to it than what the 5DS/R would offer. If you want more DR and better noise and 1DX-like ISO performance....same sensor will NOT work in this body. Again, give me a 1DX2 (which IS coming) with 15fps and killer good performance at 6400, DPAF, 100+ Crosstype AF spread across the entire frame, etc... All the stuff that SHOULD be in a flagship 1 body.

While some of you would like a 5DS in a 1DS body and pay double for it, I'm just not sure there are enough of you for Canon to produce it.

PS - I'll add to this that given Canon's seemingly recent move towards model specialization... I wouldn't expect them to make this because there would likely be too much overlap. I think this is just them playing around to test something else, just like the rumor we had about the 5D4 prototype out there with the same old 18MP sensor that made everyone freak out.

What better way to test Dual Digic 7 limits than with a 50MP chip? Maybe they DO make this camera at some point, but it would have a new sensor all of it's own to address the very things you just said you'd want in such a camera.

 

[photonius]

Just curious about something...Is there any older Canon lens - like the EF100-400L - that will be able to resolve anything close to what a 50.6mp sensor can resolve, or will buying a 50.6mp camera require all new glass?

There are several old Canon lenses able to show much more detail with a 50 megapixel camera. A brief list:
<snip>
TS-E24mm F3.5L
TS-E17mm F4L
<snip>

The TS-E lenses will be key for those wanting maximum resolution and extended DOF. The diffraction limited aperture (DLA) is projected to be f/6.7, so f/16 or even f/11 won't be as usable at 50.6 as it is on the 5DII et al. Shooting with a T/S lens at f/5.6 or f/8 with tilt will be the way to give your image more DOF with a single exposure while keeping the aperture set for maximum sharpness.

I know some may chime in to explain all the technical details and limits here, but in practice, this is going to be the case. Hopefully this will push Canon to upgrade the non-L TS-E lenses (esp. the 45mm).

EDIT: Here's a good example from The-Digital-Picture:

300 f/2.8 IS II on the 1DsIII vs 7DII @ f/16

While not the most ideal example, the effect of diffraction on one of the sharpest lenses Canon makes is shocking on the 7DII (roughly same pixel pitch as 5Ds), even at f/11.

Good point.
I reprimanded often by people who say:
"more megapixel will never be worse" :-X

It depends if you are comparing apples to oranges, or not.

The 7DII crop is enlarged over twice as much so is an effective ff equivalent to f22. Change the crop camera aperture down 1 stop and you are looking at the same actual image qualities, or, dial f11 into the comparometer and keep the FF at f16, then you will see the true effects of diffraction at the same magnification and subject output, not so very different after all.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=6&LensComp=739&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

More MP are never worse, but look at more MP at 100% and they appear worse because you are magnifying them more. Magnify things the same and the more MP will always return more detail, even after DFA's. How much more is a test I am interested to carry out when I can come across a 5DSR, but that won't be soon and I don't expect to see much difference.

the crop should not be enlarged over 2x. the test chart should be shot at 1.6x distance, if tdp does it correctly.

Er, if you shoot something from 1.6 times the distance with the same lens and then reproduce it the same size you are enlarging it, and any IQ issues, diffraction, aberrations etc, more!

It is a 1.6 times linear enlargement, or a 1.6 x 1.6 area enlargement, which is 256% the area.

But that's not what should be happening with the test images at tdp. you have a standard test target. you use the same lens (e.g. 300mm). In one case on a FF body, let's say you are 3.5 meter away from the target to cover the test chart. With the maps-c body, you are 5.6 m away to cover the test chart. Now you zoom in 10x to show only the central circle of the test chart in both cases, the circle will be the same size. That's what you post on the web site. So, there is no extra enlargement.

 

[ahsanford]

PS - I'll add to this that given Canon's seemingly recent move towards model specialization... I wouldn't expect them to make this because there would likely be too much overlap. I think this is just them playing around to test something else, just like the rumor we had about the 5D4 prototype out there with the same old 18MP sensor that made everyone freak out.

Yep. Canon made a specialization move with what we assume will be a great "good light" camera with the 5DS/r. We should expect the 5D4 to have less MP but a higher framerate, better low light performance, (also: 4K), etc.

So the question is whether the 1D line also gets the dual option -- one camera for maximum detail and one for framerate/high ISO. My money is on yes, and here's why:

1) Not doing it would represent a really painful choice for 1D users. There is a subset of pros that use 1D-series bodies today and they would love a high MP rig, butmoving down to a 5D body would be a downgrade. As many have said on this thread, 1D bodies offer a ton more than the sensor, the framerate, the grip, etc. They have wonderful ergonomics and features you just won't get anywhere else, and people value those features enough to go north of $6k for it. So Canon is leaving a lot of money on the table by not offering such cameras.

2) The 1D line was split long before the 5D line was split. Think 1Ds vs. 1D cameras -- one was for studio and one was for the field. Part of that was the need for APS-H, but part of it was a framerate differentiator.

3) Offering just one 1D body -- with either the 5D4 sensor (speed / low light) vs. the 5DS sensor (high MP) -- will probably leave the 1D series lacking something that 1D users have been asking for.


I just think that we're looking at two future 1D bodies. I could be wrong.

- A

 

[privatebydesign]

Just curious about something...Is there any older Canon lens - like the EF100-400L - that will be able to resolve anything close to what a 50.6mp sensor can resolve, or will buying a 50.6mp camera require all new glass?

There are several old Canon lenses able to show much more detail with a 50 megapixel camera. A brief list:
<snip>
TS-E24mm F3.5L
TS-E17mm F4L
<snip>

The TS-E lenses will be key for those wanting maximum resolution and extended DOF. The diffraction limited aperture (DLA) is projected to be f/6.7, so f/16 or even f/11 won't be as usable at 50.6 as it is on the 5DII et al. Shooting with a T/S lens at f/5.6 or f/8 with tilt will be the way to give your image more DOF with a single exposure while keeping the aperture set for maximum sharpness.

I know some may chime in to explain all the technical details and limits here, but in practice, this is going to be the case. Hopefully this will push Canon to upgrade the non-L TS-E lenses (esp. the 45mm).

EDIT: Here's a good example from The-Digital-Picture:

300 f/2.8 IS II on the 1DsIII vs 7DII @ f/16

While not the most ideal example, the effect of diffraction on one of the sharpest lenses Canon makes is shocking on the 7DII (roughly same pixel pitch as 5Ds), even at f/11.

Good point.
I reprimanded often by people who say:
"more megapixel will never be worse" :-X

It depends if you are comparing apples to oranges, or not.

The 7DII crop is enlarged over twice as much so is an effective ff equivalent to f22. Change the crop camera aperture down 1 stop and you are looking at the same actual image qualities, or, dial f11 into the comparometer and keep the FF at f16, then you will see the true effects of diffraction at the same magnification and subject output, not so very different after all.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=739&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=6&LensComp=739&CameraComp=963&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

More MP are never worse, but look at more MP at 100% and they appear worse because you are magnifying them more. Magnify things the same and the more MP will always return more detail, even after DFA's. How much more is a test I am interested to carry out when I can come across a 5DSR, but that won't be soon and I don't expect to see much difference.

the crop should not be enlarged over 2x. the test chart should be shot at 1.6x distance, if tdp does it correctly.

Er, if you shoot something from 1.6 times the distance with the same lens and then reproduce it the same size you are enlarging it, and any IQ issues, diffraction, aberrations etc, more!

It is a 1.6 times linear enlargement, or a 1.6 x 1.6 area enlargement, which is 256% the area.

But that's not what should be happening with the test images at tdp. you have a standard test target. you use the same lens (e.g. 300mm). In one case on a FF body, let's say you are 3.5 meter away from the target to cover the test chart. With the maps-c body, you are 5.6 m away to cover the test chart. Now you zoom in 10x to show only the central circle of the test chart in both cases, the circle will be the same size. That's what you post on the web site. So, there is no extra enlargement.

Seriously?

Look, a 300mm lens has x magnification at x distance irrespective of what sensor is behind it, if you increase the distance the magnification gets less, if you reduce the distance the magnification gets higher.

How then can two cameras shot from different distances have the same size output? You enlarge the more distant shot more, that is what is being done in the linked tests. The only way you are comparing like for like with regards, in this instance, diffraction, is to shoot both cameras from the same distance with the same settings and enlarge them the same. But that is not what the first comparison does, my linked second comparison more closely emulates that from the results we have, but it still isn't quite the same.

 

[PureClassA]

PS - I'll add to this that given Canon's seemingly recent move towards model specialization... I wouldn't expect them to make this because there would likely be too much overlap. I think this is just them playing around to test something else, just like the rumor we had about the 5D4 prototype out there with the same old 18MP sensor that made everyone freak out.

Yep. Canon made a specialization move with what we assume will be a great "good light" camera with the 5DS/r. We should expect the 5D4 to have less MP but a higher framerate, better low light performance, (also: 4K), etc.

So the question is whether the 1D line also gets the dual option -- one camera for maximum detail and one for framerate/high ISO. My money is on yes, and here's why:

1) Not doing it would represent a really painful choice for 1D users. There is a subset of pros that use 1D-series bodies today and they would love a high MP rig, butmoving down to a 5D body would be a downgrade. As many have said on this thread, 1D bodies offer a ton more than the sensor, the framerate, the grip, etc. They have wonderful ergonomics and features you just won't get anywhere else, and people value those features enough to go north of $6k for it. So Canon is leaving a lot of money on the table by not offering such cameras.

2) The 1D line was split long before the 5D line was split. Think 1Ds vs. 1D cameras -- one was for studio and one was for the field. Part of that was the need for APS-H, but part of it was a framerate differentiator.

3) Offering just one 1D body -- with either the 5D4 sensor (speed / low light) vs. the 5DS sensor (high MP) -- will probably leave the 1D series lacking something that 1D users have been asking for.


I just think that we're looking at two future 1D bodies. I could be wrong.

- A

IF Canon feels they can successfully market 2 cameras with the same sensor, one being double the price of the other) then they will. If not, they won't. They had a split in the 1D line before, yes. But with two different sensors for two different purposes, neither of which was really addressed at the time by the 5 series. That's what is different now. And If a 5d4 comes out with 10fps, it's starting to chew into 1 bodies a little more as well. Are there enough people out there willing to spend twice as much money for a 5DS with more fps and a bigger body that Canon can make the profit margin they want. That's the question.

What I can tell you is that Canon will almost assuredly sell a ton more 1DX2 bodies than they would a modestly stepped up 5DS. Therefore, they will likely produce that first. I just don't think you're going to see this mythical body anytime soon.

 

[ahsanford]

IF Canon feels they can successfully market 2 cameras with the same sensor, one being double the price of the other) then they will. If not, they won't. They had a split in the 1D line before, yes. But with two different sensors for two different purposes, neither of which was really addressed at the time by the 5 series. That's what is different now. And If a 5d4 comes out with 10fps, it's starting to chew into 1 bodies a little more as well. Are there enough people out there willing to spend twice as much money for a 5DS with more fps and a bigger body that Canon can make the profit margin they want. That's the question.

What I can tell you is that Canon will almost assuredly sell a ton more 1DX2 bodies than they would a modestly stepped up 5DS. Therefore, they will likely produce that first. I just don't think you're going to see this mythical body anytime soon.

Agree. I might have misled with a 'high framerate' statement on the 5D4 -- it's just going to be more than the 5Ds due to having (presumably) comparable data-moving ability and a smaller MP sensor. I don't think it'll be a 1DX sort of screamer, perhaps 7-8 fps or so.

We might be looking at something like this in 1-2 years:

5Ds: 50 MP + ("up to") 5 fps
5D4: 30 MP + 8 fps + 4K and higher ISO limits

1DXs: 5Ds sensor at 7 fps + the additional 1D series features
1DX2: 5D4 sensor at 12 fps + the additional 1D series features

- A

 

[PureClassA]

IF Canon feels they can successfully market 2 cameras with the same sensor, one being double the price of the other) then they will. If not, they won't. They had a split in the 1D line before, yes. But with two different sensors for two different purposes, neither of which was really addressed at the time by the 5 series. That's what is different now. And If a 5d4 comes out with 10fps, it's starting to chew into 1 bodies a little more as well. Are there enough people out there willing to spend twice as much money for a 5DS with more fps and a bigger body that Canon can make the profit margin they want. That's the question.

What I can tell you is that Canon will almost assuredly sell a ton more 1DX2 bodies than they would a modestly stepped up 5DS. Therefore, they will likely produce that first. I just don't think you're going to see this mythical body anytime soon.

Agree. I might have misled with a 'high framerate' statement on the 5D4 -- it's just going to be more than the 5Ds due to having (presumably) comparable data-moving ability and a smaller MP sensor. I don't think it'll be a 1DX sort of screamer, perhaps 7-8 fps or so.

We might be looking at something like this in 1-2 years:

5Ds: 50 MP + ("up to") 5 fps
5D4: 30 MP + 8 fps + 4K and higher ISO limits

1DXs: 5Ds sensor at 7 fps + the additional 1D series features
1DX2: 5D4 sensor at 12 fps + the additional 1D series features

- A

I'm with you on the 5D4 and 5DS. I'll even throw in a 5DC, again at the same price point as the 5D4 and 5DS with 12MP, 4k, and a menu and feature set tweaked out for cinema/video

But, if all this theoretical 1DXs will give us over a 5DS is the bigger body and 2 extra FPS .... it will remain a pipe dream prototype. I'd like to hear more about what specific features we would gain over the 5DS taht warrant double the price. Do I really need a blistering fast new AF system for a studio and landscape camera? Obviously we won't see better ISO performance given the same sensor. Nothing about this screams "Financially viable" when the half priced option would give me 95% of everything else.

Now we can really go wild and speculate that 4k in a 1 series body would be reserved for this machine.... I highly doubt it, because 4k with 50MP really is overkill for it to the specialty 1 body for that. That will stay with the 1DX2. I just dont see how sales forecasts would support actual production short of, as I said, there being some REAL SERIOUS advantage beyond body ergonomics and 2-3 extra FPS.

 

[ahsanford]

I'm with you on the 5D4 and 5DS. I'll even throw in a 5DC, again at the same price point as the 5D4 and 5DS with 12MP, 4k, and a menu and feature set tweaked out for cinema/video

But, if all this theoretical 1DXs will give us over a 5DS is the bigger body and 2 extra FPS .... it will remain a pipe dream prototype. I'd like to hear more about what specific features we would gain over the 5DS taht warrant double the price. Do I really need a blistering fast new AF system for a studio and landscape camera? Obviously we won't see better ISO performance given the same sensor. Nothing about this screams "Financially viable" when the half priced option would give me 95% of everything else.

That's the real question isn't it?

My gut would say:

• Tougher build quality
• Possibly a newer AF system (keep in mind 1DX / 5D3 / 5Ds have fairly similar AF systems already)
• Higher framerate
• Integral grip and all that entails
• 1D-series exclusive items: auto-ISO in manual, spot metering at any AF point, mechanical viewfinder cover, etc.

Is it worth the money? Absolutely not -- unless the 1D the only style of rig you use. So then the calculus changes from 'How is it better than the 5Ds?' to 'Is this worth upgrading from my 1DX?'

Ultimately, if such a 1D camera was offered, those using the 1DX today in good light will likely snap it up. Those heavily pushing up their ISO might want the other 1D body I am guessing is coming, and that one will have the 5D4 sensor and better low light performance.

- A

 

[jhpeterson]

The 1D series is targeted to fast moving events and in all kinds of weather. The professional guys that use this camera pop away hundreds and thousands of shots during even a 1 day assignment.

I recently was at a golf tournament and it was raining and on the cold side. The photographers had these beasts and it sounded like a machine gun when it fired off. These guys had to fly from hole to hole and around the greens to keep up with a particular group. It was a tough struggle that day, but they were getting paid. The bottom line for them was that the camera couldn't fail them and it had to focus quick. The camera had to withstand the elements. This is what goes into the price of the 1D and the pros are willing to pay it.

This is the far and away the reason why I find myself using the 1D series for nearly everything I do. Yes, the price is definitely an issue for those of us on the commercial and, especially, the editorial side. (I'm still a photojournalist at heart.) There have been times I've second-guessed whether they are worth the cost, only to find I can't afford anything less.

 

[AshtonNekolah]

it will happen.

 

[Ozarker]

Any lens will resolve more on a 50MP sensor than a 20MP one, some will resolve much closer to 50 than others but none can resolve the full 50MP.

Most will, but not all. I'd argue that a lens baby or equivalent won't gain any resolution advantage at all from >20MP

Well explain to me how a lens baby doesn't obey the laws of physics then.

System resolution can be broadly shorthanded down to this equation, it isn't perfect but pretty close.

tsr = 1/sqrt((1/lsr) ² + (1/ssr) ² )

Where tsr is total spatial resolution, lsr is lens spatial resolution, and ssr is sensor spatial resolution.

So if, for example, we have a sensor that can resolve 100 lppmm, and a lens that can resolve 100 lppmm we get this

1/sqrt((1/100) ² + (1/100) ² ) = tsr of 71 lppmm

Leave the same lens on, good or bad, and double the sensor resolution to 200 lppmm

1/sqrt((1/100) ² + (1/200) ² ) = tsr of 89 lppmm


You will notice that the system resolution, even in this simplified form, can never resolve 100% of the lowest performing portion of that system, so if a 24MP sensor is returning 80% of the potential of a Lens Baby then a 50MP sensor might return 90%, how useful that is in real life is a moot point, but it does illustrate that even the most modest lens will show increased resolution when put in front of a higher resolving sensor.

Mortals like myself are glad humans like you exist. I consider myself a real geek on some subjects, but you impress me. Math was never my strong point. I have problems with such things. I'm always in awe of people with that talent, because I do not have it in the least. I could never quite grasp it. Off topic, I know, but I am impressed and highly entertained. Thank you! There are a lot of people like you on this forum. That is why I keep coming back. I figure just reading posts by such knowledgeable people has saved me a lot of money.

 

[tiredofstitching]

As much as I loved my 1Ds3 and have used it with much satisfaction for at least 6 years, till the release of the D800E, as much I now hate the large heavy body form factor and will never again invest in an expensive camera. The 1Ds3 lost its resale value shortly after I bought it, when the 5DII with film feature was released.

There are a few basic questions Canon should have asked before releasing the 5Ds/R. Questions like: who wants a 50Mp sensor, and what for.

Action, sport, wildlife, wedding photographers, they all drooled and lusted for the 36Mp D800E. The fact that Canon has let his customers wait for so long on a contender is beyond sense. And now they eventually released a 50Mp 5Ds with an AA filter! That's probably OK for JPEG shooters. But why a 5DsR with AA filter with effect cancelled???? That is again beyond sense. Why bother with huge 50Mp files that contain optically speaking no more information than a 36Mp file produced with a non bridled Nikon D810 or Sony A7R? I'm in shock… I eventually purchased a Sony A7R to get rid of some of my frustration with Canon. I still wish that they will release a low priced 50Mp with no AA filter soon.

 

[mackguyver]

Just catching up on this thread and yes, Private is right - my example is bad. Not sure what I was thinking comparing crop to FF at the same apertures... I'm sorry I threw the conversation a bit sideways with that one. I guess I need more sleep...

Back to the topic, I agree with some who talk about the pleasure of using the 1D series. I really thought the 5DIII was about as good is it could get, but there is something about holding one of these big cameras in your hands and using them that brings a smile to my face

 

[bdunbar79]

As much as I loved my 1Ds3 and have used it with much satisfaction for at least 6 years, till the release of the D800E, as much I now hate the large heavy body form factor and will never again invest in an expensive camera. The 1Ds3 lost its resale value shortly after I bought it, when the 5DII with film feature was released.

There are a few basic questions Canon should have asked before releasing the 5Ds/R. Questions like: who wants a 50Mp sensor, and what for.

Action, sport, wildlife, wedding photographers, they all drooled and lusted for the 36Mp D800E. The fact that Canon has let his customers wait for so long on a contender is beyond sense. And now they eventually released a 50Mp 5Ds with an AA filter! That's probably OK for JPEG shooters. But why a 5DsR with AA filter with effect cancelled???? That is again beyond sense. Why bother with huge 50Mp files that contain optically speaking no more information than a 36Mp file produced with a non bridled Nikon D810 or Sony A7R? I'm in shock… I eventually purchased a Sony A7R to get rid of some of my frustration with Canon. I still wish that they will release a low priced 50Mp with no AA filter soon.

I think the problem is that you are confused about two things, to say the least.

1. What sports/action/PJ's need but worse

2. How marketing, demand, and R&D work together to produce and release a product.

They produced a high MP body BECAUSE THAT'S BEEN THE #1 COMPLAINT TO CANON SINCE THE D800/E WAS RELEASED. So yes, it is in demand.

There are a few basic questions Canon should have asked before releasing the 5Ds/R. Questions like: who wants a 50Mp sensor, and what for.

You just couldn't possibly be serious.

 

[PureClassA]

Just catching up on this thread and yes, Private is right - my example is bad. Not sure what I was thinking comparing crop to FF at the same apertures... I'm sorry I threw the conversation a bit sideways with that one. I guess I need more sleep...

Back to the topic, I agree with some who talk about the pleasure of using the 1D series. I really thought the 5DIII was about as good is it could get, but there is something about holding one of these big cameras in your hands and using them that brings a smile to my face

Couldn't agree more on that statement. And as an update, CanonWatch.com has apparently put this same rumor out with a CW4 rating, which is very high. Again, I'd be very (albeit pleasantly) surprised if Canon finds enough of a market for 2 new 5 series studio/landscape bodies AND a new 1 series body for the exact same purpose in such a short period of time. Again, it makes a lot more sense to upgrade the 1DX as a new supreme everything body, short of them finding a way to use this same chip (as speculated) and make it work WELL up to and beyond 6400. That seems more the realm of a 1DX2 and not a 1DXs. I think if they had gone the other way, releasing a 1DXs first and THEN the 5 bodies, it may have made more sense. But given the fact that Canon obviously recognized the need to have a D810 competitor, they played smart and made it a 5 body.

 

[ahsanford]

I still wish that they will release a low priced 50Mp with no AA filter soon.

I think the problem is that you are confused about two things, to say the least.

1. What sports/action/PJ's need but worse

2. How marketing, demand, and R&D work together to produce and release a product.

They produced a high MP body BECAUSE THAT'S BEEN THE #1 COMPLAINT TO CANON SINCE THE D800/E WAS RELEASED. So yes, it is in demand.

There are a few basic questions Canon should have asked before releasing the 5Ds/R. Questions like: who wants a 50Mp sensor, and what for.

You just couldn't possibly be serious.

Re: AA filters, I'm admittedly behind on this front. I thought -- and please correct me if I am wrong -- that Nikon settled this one for us.

The D800 (Low pass + AA), D800E (low pass + no AA), D810 (neither low pass nor AA) gave us a nice test platform to answer this question. I thought removing the LP and AA only made stills sharper by the smallest of margins, and only if you shoot at the given lens' absolutely sharpest aperture. The only head to head I've seen was Ken Rockwell's comparison (wince) and it didn't show much of a difference.

In return, I thought that pulling those filters was problematic for moire, esp in video.

So is this more marketing hype than true value for photographers? I honestly am not too well read on this and would appreciate some perspective. Is dropping the AA filter a bandwagon Canon simply must get on, or is it just some clever shenanigans to rope in more enthusiasts?

- A

 

[privatebydesign]

I still wish that they will release a low priced 50Mp with no AA filter soon.

I think the problem is that you are confused about two things, to say the least.

1. What sports/action/PJ's need but worse

2. How marketing, demand, and R&D work together to produce and release a product.

They produced a high MP body BECAUSE THAT'S BEEN THE #1 COMPLAINT TO CANON SINCE THE D800/E WAS RELEASED. So yes, it is in demand.

There are a few basic questions Canon should have asked before releasing the 5Ds/R. Questions like: who wants a 50Mp sensor, and what for.

You just couldn't possibly be serious.

Re: AA filters, I'm admittedly behind on this front. I thought -- and please correct me if I am wrong -- that Nikon settled this one for us.

The D800 (Low pass + AA), D800E (low pass + no AA), D810 (neither low pass nor AA) gave us a nice test platform to answer this question. I thought removing the LP and AA only made stills sharper by the smallest of margins, and only if you shoot at the given lens' absolutely sharpest aperture. The only head to head I've seen was Ken Rockwell's comparison (wince) and it didn't show much of a difference.

In return, I thought that pulling those filters was problematic for moire, esp in video.

So is this more marketing hype than true value for photographers? I honestly am not too well read on this and would appreciate some perspective. Is dropping the AA filter a bandwagon Canon simply must get on, or is it just some clever shenanigans to rope in more enthusiasts?

- A

A Low Pass (LP) and Anti Aliasing Filter (AA) are the same thing. What the D800E ad 5DSR do though is have an AA/LP filter and then have another equal and opposite AA/LP filter to counteract the effect of the first. Apparently, and I wouldn't know if it is the truth, adding two is technically easier than not having any when you are making two versions both with and 'without' AA/LP filters. Something to do with light paths and focusing.

Depending on the acceptance rate of the two models I'd expect a unified 5DS/R MkII, interesting that the industrial espionage didn't give Canon enough confidence to start with the one version, another sign of their almost feet stuck in cement conservative approach, thank god the lens division don't eat at the same canteen. ;D

 

[ahsanford]

A Low Pass (LP) and Anti Aliasing Filter (AA) are the same thing.

Yep. My limited time with breadboards and signal processing in grad school taught me the same, but I've read that there were in fact two different layers to the stack with Nikon for the AA and some other LP filter, hence the convoluted story of:

D800 = LP + AA
D800E = LP
D810 = Nothing

But is Canon hedging on this because of drawbacks in removing (cancelling) the AA? Does defeating the AA effectively make the 5Dsr a stills-only camera? Is that the hang-up?

- A

 

[tiredofstitching]

Of course moiré can become a real problem when you use a camera for filming or for shooting in camera JPGs. But who wants 50Mp for filming and for shooting in camera JPG's? Would 36Mp not be plenty for that use, and also be much more manageable?

On the other hand, a 50Mp camera is most interesting to those who want the best picture quality and who spend a lot of time in post prod. There are talks that say that there is no real visual difference between images taken with or without a low pass filter. That sort of talk feeds the industry. But any photographer who has an educated stand from using medium format backs for instance, will tell you that there is a clear visual difference, provided that there is a high end processing path.

So when I said that Canon should have asked who needs a 50Mp sensor and what for, the outcome should have been on that issue. Instead they made two swiss knives that do all but nothing to perfection. My two cents.