Analysis of RAW samples at Fred Miranda show weak DR

[Pippan]

Do you believe 'landscape photographers' comprise a significant fraction of the 6D / 6DII market? If so, do you have any data to back up that claim? It's ok if you don't, I'm sure that Canon does have exactly that sort of data. Yet they didn't increase the DR of the 6DII at all, relative to its predecessor. Interesting....could be an example of the difference between informed business decisions and wild guesses based on personal anecdotal impressions.

Do you believe they don’t?

Or have you actually had eyes on the content of Canon’s market research specifically regarding the usefulness of improved base ISO DR to its 6D Mark II target user group? And are you able to provide any data on how large a user sample was polled and exactly how representative it was of the wider user group? It’s ok if you can’t... but you’re right it is interesting... it could be another example of a wild guess based on personal anecdotal impressions.

Or it could be evidenced by the apparent fact that Canon has produced a good camera but not one ideally suited to landscape photographers.

 

[SecureGSM]

As requested by Chrysoberyl, I ran pixel sharpness analysis over SONY A9, A7R II, NIKON D750 and D810 RAW files. Total of 2 files per each camera models were analysed.

SONY A9, 2 files analysed: QoF=1874.6 and QoF=1867.0 << best performance across Sony and Nikon RAW files tested but falls short of Canon 80D pixel level sharpness performance

Lens FE 85mm F1.8
Focal Length 85.0mm
Termination Reason Success
Test Aperture f/5.6
Test ISO 100
Aperture f/5.6
Shutter Speed 1/40s
EV 10.2
Colour Temperature Unknown
Camera Temperature Unknown
Quality Measure 1874.6
Optimised No
Ignored No
Spectral Power (R/G/B) 35/32/33
Red Quality 1835.8
Green Quality 1901.7
Blue Quality 1889.9
HVR -1.1%

Sony A7R II, 2 files analysed: QoF=1776.2 and QoF=1750.7

Lens FE 55mm F1.8 ZA
Focal Length 55.0mm
Termination Reason Success
Test Aperture f/5.6
Test ISO 100
Aperture f/5.6
Shutter Speed 1/40s
EV 10.2
Colour Temperature Unknown
Camera Temperature Unknown
Quality Measure 1776.2
Optimised No
Ignored No
Spectral Power (R/G/B) 35/32/33
Red Quality 1726.8
Green Quality 1912.9
Blue Quality 1691.6
HVR -1.4%


nikon D810, 2 files analysed: QoF=1818.7 and QoF=1751.8

Lens AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G
Focal Length 85.0mm
Termination Reason Success
Test Aperture f/5.6
Test ISO 100
Distance to Target 3.4m
Aperture f/5.6
Shutter Speed 1/40s
EV 10.2
Colour Temperature Unknown
Camera Temperature Unknown
Quality Measure 1818.7
Optimised No
Ignored No
Spectral Power (R/G/B) 33/32/34
Red Quality 1691.2
Green Quality 1883.8

nikon D750, 2 files analysed: QoF=1821.1 and QoF=1811.2

Lens AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.8G
Focal Length 85.0mm
Termination Reason Success
Test Aperture f/5.6
Test ISO 100
Distance to Target 4.0m
Aperture f/5.6
Shutter Speed 1/5s
EV 7.2
Colour Temperature Unknown
Camera Temperature Unknown
Quality Measure 1821.1
Optimised No
Ignored No
Spectral Power (R/G/B) 33/32/35
Red Quality 1785.2
Green Quality 1855.4
Blue Quality 1823.5
HVR 0.0%
HVR -1.1%

so far Canon 80D RAW files demonstrated the best pixel level sharpness: 1906.8, followed by SONY A9: 1874.6 and Canon 5D IV: 1864.2
Canon 5DsR RAW files demonstrated the worst out of all files tested pixel level sharpness : QoF=1699.8

 

[Khalai]

Seems odd that OLPF-less cameras have lower pixel sharpness. I would expect A7r2 or 5Dsr to be one of the best out there...

 

[SecureGSM]

It could be that sensors have outresolved the lenses used, hence the unexpected result. don't know.. I was shocked myself.

Seems odd that OLPF-less cameras have lower pixel sharpness. I would expect A7r2 or 5Dsr to be one of the best out there...

 

[Khalai]

It could be that sensors have outresolved the lenses used, hence the unexpected result. don't know.. I was shocked myself.

Seems odd that OLPF-less cameras have lower pixel sharpness. I would expect A7r2 or 5Dsr to be one of the best out there...

We need to otusify those tests then? Looking for sponsorship, anyone?

 

[SecureGSM]

Sigma 85 Art will do the trick nicely. Trust me ;D

It could be that sensors have outresolved the lenses used, hence the unexpected result. don't know.. I was shocked myself.

Seems odd that OLPF-less cameras have lower pixel sharpness. I would expect A7r2 or 5Dsr to be one of the best out there...

We need to otusify those tests then? Looking for sponsorship, anyone?

 

[Dan Borg]

So here's a review of the Canon 6D MKII from a UK camera store, she says (in the comments) that she reviewed the camera without reading any internet bias... even though the MKII appears to have less DR than the original and more recent Canon offerings, she seems to think that it has more than her 6D??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gkmqh3T1jc

 

[neuroanatomist]

Do you believe 'landscape photographers' comprise a significant fraction of the 6D / 6DII market? If so, do you have any data to back up that claim? It's ok if you don't, I'm sure that Canon does have exactly that sort of data.

How Canon get this data on how many have 6D for landscape?

They ask their customers, i.e., market research.

 

[SecureGSM]

my 12 y.o. son believes that there is a fingerprint scanner inbuilt in the shutter button of my 6D. He has all the evidence that supports his theory as the camera refused to focus on the subject at the press of the shutter button for him no matter how hard he tried. It does for me though. hint: Back Button AF.

So here's a review of the Canon 6D MKII from a UK camera store, she says (in the comments) that she reviewed the camera without reading any internet bias... even though the MKII appears to have less DR than the original and more recent Canon offerings, she seems to think that it has more than her 6D??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gkmqh3T1jc

 

[Khalai]

Do you believe 'landscape photographers' comprise a significant fraction of the 6D / 6DII market? If so, do you have any data to back up that claim? It's ok if you don't, I'm sure that Canon does have exactly that sort of data.

How Canon get this data on how many have 6D for landscape?

They ask their customers, i.e., market research.

I'm quite positive that nobody asked me. And I've been in the CPS program for years, subscribed to CPS newsletter as well. So I'm honestly asking, where did they ask? I've never stumbled upon any Canon questionnaire or survey...

 

[Deleted member 378664]

I'm quite positive that nobody asked me. And I've been in the CPS program for years, subscribed to CPS newsletter as well. So I'm honestly asking, where did they ask? I've never stumbled upon any Canon questionnaire or survey...

On the european CPS website there is a section where one can click how the gear is used.

kind regards
Frank

 

[LonelyBoy]

Do you believe 'landscape photographers' comprise a significant fraction of the 6D / 6DII market? If so, do you have any data to back up that claim? It's ok if you don't, I'm sure that Canon does have exactly that sort of data.

How Canon get this data on how many have 6D for landscape?

They ask their customers, i.e., market research.

I'm quite positive that nobody asked me. And I've been in the CPS program for years, subscribed to CPS newsletter as well. So I'm honestly asking, where did they ask? I've never stumbled upon any Canon questionnaire or survey...

With sufficiently-random polling, you don't need to poll the entire population. Depending on the accuracy needed, you don't need to poll even close to the entire population. A sample of 2,000 people can get good accuracy to the entire population of the US. Canon would likely only need 200-500 users to get the accuracy needed for product planning, out of the entire population of Canon users, or even of camera users.

 

[Khalai]

I'm quite positive that nobody asked me. And I've been in the CPS program for years, subscribed to CPS newsletter as well. So I'm honestly asking, where did they ask? I've never stumbled upon any Canon questionnaire or survey...

On the european CPS website there is a section where one can click how the gear is used.

kind regards
Frank

Thanks. I filled that form like five or six years ago and since then, I completely forgot about it and never updated it

 

[neuroanatomist]

Do you believe 'landscape photographers' comprise a significant fraction of the 6D / 6DII market? If so, do you have any data to back up that claim? It's ok if you don't, I'm sure that Canon does have exactly that sort of data. Yet they didn't increase the DR of the 6DII at all, relative to its predecessor. Interesting....could be an example of the difference between informed business decisions and wild guesses based on personal anecdotal impressions.

Do you believe they don’t?

Or have you actually had eyes on the content of Canon’s market research specifically regarding the usefulness of improved base ISO DR to its 6D Mark II target user group? And are you able to provide any data on how large a user sample was polled and exactly how representative it was of the wider user group? It’s ok if you can’t... but you’re right it is interesting... it could be another example of a wild guess based on personal anecdotal impressions.

It is logical that DR is important to landscape photography (e.g., DxO's 'landscape score' is the DR at base ISO). It is logical that when something is important to you, you want more of it. Based on the available data, it appears the 6DII is no better than the 6D in terms of low ISO DR. Canon is very successful at designing and selling dSLRs, having sold more ILCs per year than any other manufacturer for >14 years. Is it logical for a successful company to make a business decision that would leave a significant fraction of their target market for a product dissatisfied?

It's ok if you aren't good at logical thinking. Not everyone understands the difference between a wild guess and a logical inference supported by facts.

 

[BillB]

ie they did not promise anything about technology

Except maybe when the Senior Managing Director and Chief Executive of Canon Inc's Image Communication Products Operations, Mr. Masaya Maeda - when quizzed directly on the matter during an interview back in September 2015 - stated that “Right now, we use both on-chip and off-chip, but recently I made the decision going forward to concentrate on the on-chip”.

Maybe it’s just me but I can kinda see an implied technology based “promise” there... what do you reckon?

Even if this camera turns out to have on chip ADC it has apparently failed to deliver the most often touted benefit of such a design... but who cares anyway right? After all improved DR is only for DRones... and people who can’t use cameras properly... or don’t understand exposure... and trolls... yes... definitely the trolls...
Nasty trolls... they’re the worst.

There was certainly a strong expectation among those who cared (including me) that the 6DII would have on sensor ADC. I think the expectation was quite reasonable, but I think it is twisting words to say that there was an implied Canon promise.

Another piece of the puzzle is that magic "DR" numbers aren't as important as some people make out, at least in my opinion. Better shadow lifting at low ISO's is certainly useful, but how useful is it in relation to other characteristics? DR sounds so much more important than "shadow lifting at low ISO's" and there are real numbers to compare before anybody can buy a camera. And yes, there is some deliberate trolling going on.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Do you believe 'landscape photographers' comprise a significant fraction of the 6D / 6DII market? If so, do you have any data to back up that claim? It's ok if you don't, I'm sure that Canon does have exactly that sort of data.

How Canon get this data on how many have 6D for landscape?

They ask their customers, i.e., market research.

I'm quite positive that nobody asked me. And I've been in the CPS program for years, subscribed to CPS newsletter as well. So I'm honestly asking, where did they ask? I've never stumbled upon any Canon questionnaire or survey...

Market research doesn't usually involve asking the entire customer base. Personally, I've received two online survey invitations from Canon in the past few years. One question I recall from the last one presented a list of ~20 features, e.g., more MP, faster frame rate, more DR, more AF points, longer battery life, etc., and respondents were asked to pick their top three features from that list.

As for nobody asking you, at least here in the US, Canon collects a ton data from a survey taken every single time a product is registered. Demographics like age, location, income, bodies or lenses you own from both Canon and other makers, lenses you plan to buy (and assuming you register them, whether or not you actually did buy), how you learn about products, factors that influence your purchasing decisions, etc. Relevant to this discussion is a question, "Please describe the primary applications of your camera," where you can select up to three options among choices like family events, nightlife, trips, nature/wildlife, outdoors/landscapes, macro, etc.

So, Canon absolutely has data on the main uses/genres for a very large fraction of 6D owners (and every other product too, of course).

 

[bdunbar79]

Exactly, as there are other factors to consider. While the 6D II may offer better resolution at most F-stops, the greater pixel density also means diffraction should start to creep in about a stop or so sooner than the original 6D. If you do a lot of macro or landscape work at high f-stops, you may start to lose the benefits of having a higher resolution sensor.

Rubbish. A higher MP sensor will always give greater resolution at a given aperture.

Resolution, yes. But sharpness will affected sooner at higher pixel density. Again, it depends on what you are trying to do, and what your intended output is. The vast majority of folks won't be affected by it.

At any given output size, sharpness will not be affected sooner because diffraction is a function of the aperture not of the sensor.
The logic of what you are saying is that landscapers will prefer to use a 12MP FF sensor over a 36 MP sensor because diffraction effects will make the 36MP less sharp.

Please show me an example of two shots with the only difference being sensor resolution where the higher resolution is less sharp.

Mikehit is correct. If you have a scene and decide to split into 3 sections, like a lot of landscape photographers might do for instance, and take each shot with a 12 MP camera and then stitch them together, then yes perhaps (and is often the case) that stitched photograph will be sharper than one larger 36 MP shot (not sectioned).

However, if the photographer decides to take one photo of the entire scene with each (12 MP and 36 MP) camera, then the 36 MP photo will always resolve more detail, everything else equal.

 

[bdunbar79]

Do you believe 'landscape photographers' comprise a significant fraction of the 6D / 6DII market? If so, do you have any data to back up that claim? It's ok if you don't, I'm sure that Canon does have exactly that sort of data.

How Canon get this data on how many have 6D for landscape?

They ask their customers, i.e., market research.

I'm quite positive that nobody asked me. And I've been in the CPS program for years, subscribed to CPS newsletter as well. So I'm honestly asking, where did they ask? I've never stumbled upon any Canon questionnaire or survey...

To neuro's point, you actually provide Canon a TON of information everytime you register a product as a CPS member, whether you realize it nor not.

 

[scyrene]

Mr. Masaya Maeda - when quizzed directly on the matter during an interview back in September 2015 - stated that “Right now, we use both on-chip and off-chip, but recently I made the decision going forward to concentrate on the on-chip”.

"Concentrate on" doesn't mean "use exclusively".

 

[snoke]

Do you believe 'landscape photographers' comprise a significant fraction of the 6D / 6DII market? If so, do you have any data to back up that claim? It's ok if you don't, I'm sure that Canon does have exactly that sort of data.

How Canon get this data on how many have 6D for landscape?

They ask their customers, i.e., market research.

I'm quite positive that nobody asked me. And I've been in the CPS program for years, subscribed to CPS newsletter as well. So I'm honestly asking, where did they ask? I've never stumbled upon any Canon questionnaire or survey...

Market research doesn't usually involve asking the entire customer base. Personally, I've received two online survey invitations from Canon in the past few years. One question I recall from the last one presented a list of ~20 features, e.g., more MP, faster frame rate, more DR, more AF points, longer battery life, etc., and respondents were asked to pick their top three features from that list.

As for nobody asking you, at least here in the US, Canon collects a ton data from a survey taken every single time a product is registered.

This assume people register and give right informations. If I register and want Canon to think I important, I say I have many big white lenses. How Canon know if true or not? No registration card for lens on craigslist or ebay!

If Canon do this and Canon products are recognized as not as good at landscape then fewer owners do landscape so Canon do less for them.

Market research direct Canon and buyers directed by Canon too. Less people buy Canon for landscape, not so many respond with landscape needs, Canon does less for them.

Et voila, 6D Mark II and it has old sensor design.