Another interview about the EOS R and talk of an APS-C EOS R Body

YuengLinger

EOS R6
Dec 20, 2012
2,925
1,206
Southeastern USA
I can. If Canon comes up with a 7D-class R body, priced similarly to 7D2, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. I would not buy a similar M body.

Why? I use both APS-C and full-frame bodies, with mostly same lenses. I expect to upgrade FF ones to R series, and start collecting RF lenses. I want them to work in the crop body, too.

Why do I want a crop body in the first place? To get the speed 7D2 provides at a reasonable price (and without built-in vertical handle 1D series has). Of course if Canon makes a FF R body that's as fast and cheap as 7D2 that'd be even better, but somehow that doesn't seem likely.
What kind of Photography do you do with your 7D2?
 

Larsskv

EOS R
Jun 12, 2015
828
268
There is no problem at all. Canon has 2 distinct mirrorfree systems for 2 distinct market segments:
* small, light, inexpensive, APS-C = EOS M / EF-M ... with option to use all EF and EF-S lenses
* large, expensive, FF = EOS R / RF ... with option to use all EF and EF-S lenses

In reality there is no "upgrade path" from M to R needed. The habit of buying EF lenses in the past was only because the focal lengths were not available in EF-S mount, because they could not be made any smaller or less expensive for APS-C image circle.

Current owners of Rebels, xxD, 7D/II mirrorslappers plus any assortment of EF/EF-S glass have a whole number of options and "upgrade paths" within Canon EOS ecosystem, depending on their priorities and budgets

1. continue with crop DSLR for a few more years
a) wait for upcoming 7D III [there will be one; 2019] and continue with DSLR for a few more years
b)wait for upcoming 90D [there *might* be one; 2020?]

2. go mirrorfree APS-C with EOS M system; all EF-/EF-S lenses remain fully usable, no need to buy EF-M unless desired
a) "downsize" to EOS M50 [now]
b) wait for upcoming EOS M5 II which *should be* a mirrorfree 90D [2019]

3. go mirrorfree FF with EOS R system, all EF lenses fully usable, EF-S in crop mode; no need to buy RF, unless desired
a) EOS R [now]
b) wait for lower-end, less expensive EOS R FF body [2019]
c) wait for higher-end EOS R bodies - hi rez ["mirrorfree 5DS/R II" [2019]
c) "mirrorfree 1D-X III" [spring 2020]

No problem for Canon or their customers whatsoever. Replace EF/EF-S / add RF lenses when desired and available.

Many Canon customers will also keep EOS M/EF-M when they buy into RF - as a smaller, lighter, less conspicuous, less expensive secondary system.

For almost all users, EF-M / RF lenses not being interchangeable is "no real issue in real life". :)
Your reasoning does not take into account the future. Remember, cheap entry leven EF-S DSLRs have been an important route for Canon to lead many customers into the Canon system, and upgrade thereafter. The possibility to use already acquired EF lenses on a FF body, has led users to upgrade within the Canon system.

It seems natural that the EF-M series will replace EF-S DSLRs in the not so distant future. If the EF-M series becomes the entry level camera line, then there will be no obvious reasons for entry level EF-M customers to choose Canon over the competition when upgrading to a FF system.
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
There is no problem at all. Canon has 2 distinct mirrorfree systems for 2 distinct market segments:
* small, light, inexpensive, APS-C = EOS M / EF-M ... with option to use all EF and EF-S lenses
* large, expensive, FF = EOS R / RF ... with option to use all EF and EF-S lenses

In reality there is no "upgrade path" from M to R needed. The habit of buying EF lenses in the past was only because the focal lengths were not available in EF-S mount, because they could not be made any smaller or less expensive for APS-C image circle.

Current owners of Rebels, xxD, 7D/II mirrorslappers plus any assortment of EF/EF-S glass have a whole number of options and "upgrade paths" within Canon EOS ecosystem, depending on their priorities and budgets

1. continue with crop DSLR for a few more years
a) wait for upcoming 7D III [there will be one; 2019] and continue with DSLR for a few more years
b)wait for upcoming 90D [there *might* be one; 2020?]

2. go mirrorfree APS-C with EOS M system; all EF-/EF-S lenses remain fully usable, no need to buy EF-M unless desired
a) "downsize" to EOS M50 [now]
b) wait for upcoming EOS M5 II which *should be* a mirrorfree 90D [2019]

3. go mirrorfree FF with EOS R system, all EF lenses fully usable, EF-S in crop mode; no need to buy RF, unless desired
a) EOS R [now]
b) wait for lower-end, less expensive EOS R FF body [2019]
c) wait for higher-end EOS R bodies - hi rez ["mirrorfree 5DS/R II" [2019]
c) "mirrorfree 1D-X III" [spring 2020]

No problem for Canon or their customers whatsoever. Replace EF/EF-S / add RF lenses when desired and available.

Many Canon customers will also keep EOS M/EF-M when they buy into RF - as a smaller, lighter, less conspicuous, less expensive secondary system.

For almost all users, EF-M / RF lenses not being interchangeable is "no real issue in real life". :)
FWIW the common denominator between the EF-M and the RF mount is an EF lens with an adapter. While the introduction of new EF lens designs may drop off pretty quickly, current EF designs will likely be available for quite a while, and some of them are pretty good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pj1974

criscokkat

EOS RP
Sep 26, 2017
323
299
Madison, WI
Who's to say we won't see RF-S lenses in the future? Right now mirrorless systems cost more to produce than the cheap rebel cameras because a mirror (not even a prism) is way cheaper than a digital display. But the cost of the viewfinder display is greatly influenced by the amount of those displays you produce. There might be a market for cheap APS-C RF cameras with RF-S consumer lenses. Certainly a 77D or 80D level one.
 

takesome1

EOS R
Aug 23, 2013
1,490
122
99
Licking, Missouri
APS-C had a place for use with FF lenses when price was the issue, and the processing power to handle large sensors was an issue.
I see no legitimate reason for Canon to release an APS-C R body.
A cheaper consumer grade FF version of the R, sure why not.
 

jvillain

EOS 90D
Sep 29, 2018
158
108
I'm really not sure what you're saying. Btw, I think you mean 6 more megapixels, right?
No when you use the EOS-R with crop lenses and put it into crop mode it becomes an 18MP camera. Or less than most new Rebels. What I don't get is that people were fine with people using good glass on the xxD and 7D cameras but recoil in horror at the idea of a good chunk of that group wanting the same thing in a MILC.
 

Bob Howland

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2012
512
115
No when you use the EOS-R with crop lenses and put it into crop mode it becomes an 18MP camera. Or less than most new Rebels. What I don't get is that people were fine with people using good glass on the xxD and 7D cameras but recoil in horror at the idea of a good chunk of that group wanting the same thing in a MILC.
30.3 MP/1.6/1.6 = 11.8 MP, not 18MP

I currently own a 5D3 and 7D. Before that I owned a 5D and 40D. I used the crop camera exclusively with longer lenses, mostly my 100-400 or 300 f/2.8, to extend the reach of the lens. Also, the crop cameras had higher frame rates. However, because the crop cameras had smaller pixels, the FF cameras routinely give me better image quality especially in low light situations.

In August 2007, Nikon introduced the D3 and D300 simultaneously. The D3 was FF and the D300 was crop, but both had about 12MP. Most professionals used the D3 most of the time unless they absolutely needed the extra reach.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,062
341
Vancouver, BC
I was responding to the possible need for a 7D MK II mirrorless sucessor. Its not a low end body, and certainly a 60 mp body will be $3800, but it could also be the poor mans 1D and replace the 7D series. Its just another line of thought, maybe unlikely.
Oh, right. I posted to the same effect before, too -- it makes little sense, given the lower entry point of full frame cameras now, that smaller sensors don't help shrink telephoto lenses that are often mounted onto 7D, and that EVFs allow magnification in-viewfinder. Totally with you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mirage

Treyarnon

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 11, 2018
95
122
Cornwall, UK
Visit site
APS-C had a place for use with FF lenses when price was the issue, and the processing power to handle large sensors was an issue.
I see no legitimate reason for Canon to release an APS-C R body.
A cheaper consumer grade FF version of the R, sure why not.
There is still a price issue - FF sensors cost significantly more to produce than APS-C ones. If this were not the case, we would have seen a " cheaper consumer grade" FF DSLR by now.
With all the competition in the camera market right now - no one has managed to do that in DSLR's, so why would mirrorless be any different??
 

BrightTiger

EOS M50
Aug 21, 2015
43
34
There are at least two distinct APS-C audiences (we'll keep it at two for purposes of this discussion).
The enthusiast to semi-pro crowd generally want an M-type system due to, but not exclusively:
- lower entry and long term costs
- portability
- enough differentiation in IQ from smartphones and compacts
The semi-pro to pros simply cannot live with the 42mm throat diameter vs 54mm of the EOS-R. Light availability for pro-environments like sports, B-rolls, and so forth is critical, among other benefits that a larger mount and sensor provides. But that also means larger glass and heavier lenses.
For a car analogy, a Kia Soul is fine to carry home a tool box, but a Ford 150 exists to haul trailers. Their immediate and long term costs are way different. Hence, different models for different folks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nchoh

Tremotino

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 23, 2018
61
33
Munich
I think, canon can build an M-lookalike camera with the RF system when the right time comes. They will bring out "RF-S lenses, similar to the M Lenses and abandone the m system, or at least address it for the beginners and not for the enthusiasts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nchoh

mirage

EOS RP
Jul 31, 2018
297
111
I think, canon can build an M-lookalike camera with the RF system when the right time comes. They will bring out "RF-S lenses, similar to the M Lenses and abandone the m system, or at least address it for the beginners and not for the enthusiasts.
I don't think there will ever be R-mount APS-C lenses and likely also no APS-C sensor in an R-mount camera.

Eventually, Canon will not only "abandon" EOS M, but all makers will give up on any "crop" ILC system "some day", when computational photography is as good as or better and comes in a much smaller and/or less expensive package. And further down the road, "FF sensor" ILC systems will give way too.

But hard to tell, how many years we've got until then. :)
 

digitalride

EOS M6 Mark II
Apr 2, 2012
51
28
There is no problem at all. Canon has 2 distinct mirrorfree systems for 2 distinct market segments:
They are not 2 distinct segments. Maybe the overlap is small, but there is a segment between professionals where the cost and space isn't an issue and people just starting out with one or two M lenses. Enthusiasts may want one bigger body and one smaller cheaper body to work with all of their lenses.

In the past if you wanted two bodies one option was to get something like a 7D and an M. Maybe you'd have a native lens or two for the M when you wanted something small, but you could adapt bigger lenses on occasion for special events where you wanted two of your big lenses mounted at the same time, or using the small M as a backup on a trip. I tried to do this with an 80D and the M3 but the ergonomics and focusing of the M3 were a deal breaker. I was still considering an M body until the incompatible R was announced.

In the future once most lenses are R mounts you will need separate lenses for each system and might as well buy one or the other in a different brand. ( though I suppose the flashes will at least be compatible) .

Also I think the upgrade path problem is non-negligible. Maybe Canon hopes you will just buy all new bodies and lenses to upgrade as opposed to just adding one body or lens. Personally if there is another system that offers more flexibility I'm going to favor it.
 

digitalride

EOS M6 Mark II
Apr 2, 2012
51
28
I don't think there will ever be [an] APS-C sensor in an R-mount camera.
Canon will not only "abandon" EOS M ...
Once Canon shrinks an R mount body down to almost the size of an M body there won't be much point to the M. If someone really cares about size that much they are probably using something even smaller like micro 43rds or a cell phone. As smaller cameras improve and full frame sensor costs come down there is no point to APS-C.
 

Act444

EOS R
May 4, 2011
1,105
178
^ I wouldn’t say that. For instance, a crop sensor means smaller, lighter lenses at a given focal length compared to FF. I think there will always be a place in the market for APS-C. The bigger question may be how crop fits into Canon’s future specifically...
 
  • Like
Reactions: pj1974

digitalride

EOS M6 Mark II
Apr 2, 2012
51
28
a crop sensor means smaller, lighter lenses at a given focal length compared to FF
APS-C telephoto lenses can be made a bit lighter but not smaller due to physics, that's why Canon never bothered with EF-S telephoto lenses. As for APS-C telephoto "reach" , if you keep the pixel pitch the same while scaling up an APS-C sensor to full frame ( as some other brand sensors do) then you can just crop the FF sensor and get the exact same photo and performance as an APS-C sensor.

Yes APS-C can give you smaller wide angle lenses but I think eventually it will fall into a middle ground with not enough cost savings vs. FF and not enough image quality improvement vs. size compared to even smaller formats.
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
222
129
Calgary
Once Canon shrinks an R mount body down to almost the size of an M body there won't be much point to the M. If someone really cares about size that much they are probably using something even smaller like micro 43rds or a cell phone. As smaller cameras improve and full frame sensor costs come down there is no point to APS-C.
If the price of APS-C and Full Frame sensors are almost the same,

...it would not be logical to create new separate APS-C and FF systems.
...it doesn't necessarily mean that a camera company would find it unprofitable to the point of dropping an existing APS-C line.
 

Bob Howland

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2012
512
115
a crop sensor means smaller, lighter lenses at a given focal length compared to FF
That's probably not true. However, you can use a shorter focal length lens with a crop camera than with a FF camera. For example, the Canon 100-400 lens weighs 1.64 kg. On a crop camera, it gives about the same field of view as the Sigma 150-600 sport lens, at 2.86 kg, on a FF camera. Long lens weight is dominated by the size of their front elements. The 100-400 uses 77mm filters while the 150-600 uses 105mm filters.
 

Bob Howland

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2012
512
115
Once Canon shrinks an R mount body down to almost the size of an M body there won't be much point to the M.
Just how much can Canon shrink the R mount body? The size of the SL2 is dominated by the size of the lens mount, the SL2 is about the same size as the M5 but the M100 can be shrunk even more.
http://j.mp/2Oiqudr


Canon EOS M100



Canon EOS M5




Canon Rebel SL2