Interview: Talking with Canon about the EOS R system and its future

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
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Now they are probably scrambling to see whether they can get higher-end model finished plus 1 or 2 f/2.8 RF zooms along with it for a launch date in spring 2019.
It looks more like you're scrambling for new ways to criticize your favorite punching bag. :rolleyes:

We know that FF MILCs are of paramount importance to you personally, but obviously you cannot come to grips with the fact that as far as the overall ILC market goes they are a niche product.
 

AlanF

Stay at home
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Aug 16, 2012
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Musicians talk about their instruments among themselves and no doubt there is a big variation in quality of instrument, usually reflected in their price. But I get your point. They don’t obsess like photographers.

Don't you be so sure. Pianists and their different models of Steinway vs Bosendorfer, violonists and their Strads, guitar freaks etc.
 
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Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
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It is the imbalance between pedestrian EOS R specs and the high-end RF lenses released. They had 4 lenses ready to go, including 2 hi-end ones that are targeted at a "higher market niche". But only the lower-end body was ready and announced along with all 4 lenses. They simply did not manage to get the higher-end body "matching" the 2 hi-end lenses out the door now. Due to whatever delays. Hardware, sensor, software, beancounting - your guess is as good as mine.
My guess is that it's due to the idea that it's better to do beta-testing on enthusiasts than on pros.
 
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Adelino

EOS RP
Jan 21, 2015
378
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Don't you be so sure. Pianists and their different models of Steinway vs Bosendorfer, violonists and their Strads, guitar freaks etc.
I think cameras are tools that are halfway between pure tools such as hammers, drills and circular saws and personal emotional artistic tools such as musical instruments which are non spec heavy.
 
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melgross

EOS RP
Nov 2, 2016
755
497
Why wouldn’t cameras just continue to use Bluetooth or wifi to transfer files straight to our phones?
That’s what some can do now.

But that’s not a real solution. With my iPhone, and with Android models, I take a picture with a camera app, it doesn’t matter whether it’s Apple’s, or Adobe’s or any other. I then tap the share icon and select the way I’m sending it and the first letters of the name I’m sending it too, and hit send. All of that takes less than 30 seconds to do, and as little as 20. Now try doing that from an image in your camera. If you can send it to the phone, what do you need to do to do that? It’s several more steps, plus transmission time. The steps aren’t as easy or obvious either. The entire process is very clumsy.

The problem is that while you can do it, you won’t want to unless you REALLY want to send that photo. Remember that you’ll also likely have to resize that non-smartphone taken image before you send it.

Not nearly the same level of convenience. It’s one of the things Thom Hogan rails about with regularity, and one reason “cameras” are losing out to smartphones. Younger people, who’ve never had the love of sophisticated photography from the beginning, have little interest in it, and find smartphones far more suited to their uses, where small, low Rez images in Facebook, e-mail and messaging apps, Instagram, etc. are far more appealing.
 

melgross

EOS RP
Nov 2, 2016
755
497
So Canon set in train a 5 year development program knowing Nikon would do that om September 2018?
Why would Canon know that Nikon was planning both releases at once?

And as we don’t yet know what Canon has in mind for their next camera release, or when, we can’t make any realistic claims about it. The same thing is true for lenses.
 

melgross

EOS RP
Nov 2, 2016
755
497
Isn't that a contradiction? Launching 'right now' suggests a rapid response to something but you say the decision was taken 'a while ago'.
I am pretty sure that designing in a specific sensor takes far longer than looking at Nikon's press release in August and deciding you need to bring it forward a few months. Not to mention all the staff training, beta testing,publicity materials, launch planning etc....
It really does not take much grey matter to realise this.
Well, this is a Photokina year where major new products are announced, usually before the show. So this fits right in line with what he said. The decision was made some time ago, to release now, rather than to wait until some time afterwards, say, when the higher model became available.

That’s pretty simple.
 

Jack Douglas

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Apr 10, 2013
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Critics of films, music, plays etc rarely have the ability to direct films, write music or plays etc, but it doesn't stop them from being good critics. So, do you really think you have to be a designer genius to criticise design?

Of course not but there is a need for some capability or intelligence if the criticism is to have any merit. Often folk don't have a clue but that doesn't restrain them. Free world, free speech but not all speech is worth listening to. Sure it's fun to be an arm-chair quarterback but let's not be deluded.

Jack
 
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Jack Douglas

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It looks more like you're scrambling for new ways to criticize your favorite punching bag. :rolleyes:

We know that FF MILCs are of paramount importance to you personally, but obviously you cannot come to grips with the fact that as far as the overall ILC market goes they are a niche product.

CR for the humour.:)

Jack
 

transpo1

EOS RP
Jan 12, 2011
758
104
my impression is more Canon could not finish the better model ("5D class", A7 III / Z7 competitor) in time to counter Nikon's launch. So they just went ahead with the lower model - "6D class" / Z6 competitor EOS R.

That makes sense. Or they were finished and registered it but wanted to make changes based on what Nikon released.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
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Alberta, Canada
It probably doesn't take 5 years to make a camera like the R pers se. It's the culmination of years of development (in a very interesting PDF linked here Canon mentions that they envisioned DPAF in the late 90s : https://d25tv1xepz39hi.cloudfront.net/2018-09-05/files/EOS_R_An_Interview_with_the_Developers_.pdf), but the implementation of all that research into a concrete camera probably took far less time. Hardware-wise the R is quite conventional in many ways. It's the software side and the UI that probably took, comparatively to other cameras' development, a longer time as it's quite different from existing Canon cameras. There's been a lot of efforts in that area.
The R using a derivative of the 5DIV' sensor is probably the result of Canon wanting to launch the RF system right now combined with bad timing on their sensors production investments. I do believe that Canon would have preferred to launch that system with a more capable sensor, but that between launching right now with a less capable sensor and launching later with a more capable one, they decided that it was better for them to launch right now. That decision was probably taken quite a while ago.

Excellent articles at that link.

If you read (DPAF):

"The simple concept of this technology was created in 1981, three years after the idea of phase-difference AF. It was still the era of film cameras, and it was not put into practical use. At the dawn of digital cameras in 1999, Canon first came up with the idea of the CMOS sensor configuration and started research. However, the barrier of technical challenges in achieving both imaging and phase-difference AF on one pixel was high, and it was forced to abandon the idea of putting it into practical application right away.",

and think about it you'll have a better idea what's going on. However, some arm chair quarterbacks are going to dismiss DPAF as something simplistic scarcely worth praising or no more valuable than a stop of dynamic range.

Truth is, anyone can speak but not with equal intelligence, obviously. And some have a goal in mind, to make themselves look foolish, and they are smart enough to succeed. ;)

Jack
 

efmshark

EOS M50
Jan 19, 2018
43
34
Musicians talk about their instruments among themselves and no doubt there is a big variation in quality of instrument, usually reflected in their price. But I get your point. They don’t obsess like photographers.

I think if there is a group that obsesses more about their equipment than photographers, it is musicians. There seems to be no limit for the price range for high end instruments - even if we were to exclude hand-crafted historical specimens like the Stradivari. Thankfully, high end musical instruments retain their resale value much better than high end digital cameras.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,791
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Alberta, Canada
Here is another tidbit:

"In fact, regardless of the large diameter mount, and short back focus, it would have been impossible to develop this lens for only that. The RF28-70mm F2 L USM uses a high precision glass-molded aspherical lens which overcomes the barrier of molding precision up until now, located at the position where it is most effective for miniaturization and high image quality. A new type of glass molding machine that was being developed for some time has been completed.

“The RF28-70mm F 2L USM is the crown of research and development, design and manufacturing technology that is always looking ahead and prepared for the future”

This is not a lens that is supposed to be priced for the masses, it's a statement lens displayed with pride.

And we hear, "Canon doesn't innovate", but I would suggest it's from folk who don't have a clue. I'm not a fanboy, just trying to be objective.

Jack
 
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MayaTlab

EOS 90D
Oct 6, 2015
193
81
The entire PDF is a gem and I'm surprised that it isn't talked about more.

A bit that I found quite funny concerns the 28-70mm f2 :

"Furthermore, when a force greater than a certain level is applied from the front, the lens barrel also has a shock absorbing mechanism that retracts to the rear, achieving excellent impact resistance, toughness, and durability".

In other words Canon's lens engineers weren't satisfied with just making the brightest FF standard zoom ever, they had to add a little extra damping mechanism, you know, just for kicks, as if the challenge wasn't big enough in the first place. It reminds me of Canon adding macro capability to the 24-70mm f4. It's as if they're incapable of doing standard specifications.

I'm not saying that in a 100% positive way, though. Sometimes I wish Canon lens engineers would spend a bit less time playing who's got the biggest. I've been waiting for ages for a middle-range 50mm with decent resolution, and great OOF rendering, and it never arrived. And speaking of mirrorless cameras : I'm far more interested in Nikon's "lowly" (it isn't - in fact it's shaping up like the best performance / price ratio ever in a 50mm lens) f1.8 50mm Z than Canon's 50mm f1.2 RF (undoubtedly a great lens, but one that I couldn't care less about).
 

BeenThere

EOS R
CR Pro
Sep 4, 2012
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I think if there is a group that obsesses more about their equipment than photographers, it is musicians. There seems to be no limit for the price range for high end instruments - even if we were to exclude hand-crafted historical specimens like the Stradivari. Thankfully, high end musical instruments retain their resale value much better than high end digital cameras.
I’ll yield to you superior musical acumen. But, are you aware of any musical instrument blogs that have exceeded 1000 posts within a week of a new release? ;)
 

MayaTlab

EOS 90D
Oct 6, 2015
193
81
There's also this bit that caught my attention : "Canon has proprietary data on the "hand size" of people from around the world. Developers selected users with large, small, and typical hand sizes, and tested repeatedly."

And then people still say that ergonomics are subjective... well, they might be at the individual level, but they can be rationalised at the statistical one.
 

AlanF

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Aug 16, 2012
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Of course not but there is a need for some capability or intelligence if the criticism is to have any merit. Often folk don't have a clue but that doesn't restrain them. Free world, free speech but not all speech is worth listening to. Sure it's fun to be an arm-chair quarterback but let's not be deluded.

Jack
Are you suggesting that some members of CR are incapable, lack intelligence and are unrestrained clueless?
 
Apr 19, 2011
4,761
1
"The number of pixels itself is the same as EOS 5D Mark IV, but the sensor itself is newly developed. The content has changed a lot, such as adoption of a new dual pixel CMOS AF and arrangement of microlenses according to EOS R system. "

really? it's the same old tech, adjusting the angle of a few micro-lenses is nothing compared to multi-layers, BSI, high read out, etc.

other sensors can deliver ultra high quality over-sampled 4k video, super high DR etc.

someone on another site said the DR on this seems maybe not even as good as on a 6D2!