Interview: Talking with Canon about the EOS R system and its future

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Your desire to criticise Canon really does make you unable to read. Canon say this is an adapted 5DIV sensor, so whichever way you look at it is is a new sensor.

yes, they sell newly made sensors, not used ones. Other than that nothing "new" about that 5D IV sensor. They just slapped slightly different micro-lenses on it it to match RF mount geometry. That's really all they did. No BSI, no improved readout speed, zilcho.
 
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Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,791
2,318
Alberta, Canada
I'd just love to see some production of some gizmo from the various whiners on CR. Perhaps I'm wrong and they are actually genius designers. I've completed numerous projects and know how challenging various aspects of design can be - guess that's why I'm more accommodating of Canon's efforts. I also know that steady towards a goal that is well thought out is far better than hurry up mode. So Canon had to lean on a sensor they had to get this to market ASAP; well, that's life.

Jack
 
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AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
8,234
10,258
I'd just love to see some production of some gizmo from the various whiners on CR. Perhaps I'm wrong and they are actually genius designers. I've completed numerous projects and know how challenging various aspects of design can be - guess that's why I'm more accommodating of Canon's efforts. I also know that steady towards a goal that is well thought out is far better than hurry up mode. So Canon had to lean on a sensor they had to get this to market ASAP; well, that's life.

Jack
Critics of films, music, plays etc rarely have the ability to direct films, write music or plays etc, but it doesn't stop them from being good critics. So, do you really think you have to be a designer genius to criticise design?
 
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transpo1

EOS RP
Jan 12, 2011
758
104
So this article indicates more EOS-R cameras are coming shortly. I believe they have the higher MP camera already and are holding it until next spring :)
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
So this article indicates more EOS-R cameras are coming shortly. I believe they have the higher MP camera already and are holding it until next spring :)

my impression is more Canon could not finish the better model ("5D class", A7 III / Z7 competitor) in time to counter Nikon's launch. So they just went ahead with the lower model - "6D class" / Z6 competitor EOS R.
 
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Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,335
541
Critics of films, music, plays etc rarely have the ability to direct films, write music or plays etc, but it doesn't stop them from being good critics. So, do you really think you have to be a designer genius to criticise design?

That is somewhat different. If people were saying 'this camera would better with IBIS' then that is analagous to film critique. But what people are doing here is criticising Canon's decisions on design based on their assumptions of what Canon is capable of and all-too-common cliche that Canon are deliberately crippling their cameras (when has a director deliberately crippled their films?) with no thought to the technical issues involved.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,335
541
my impression is more Canon could not finish the better model ("5D class", A7 III / Z7 competitor) in time to counter Nikon's launch. So they just went ahead with the lower model - "6D class" / Z6 competitor EOS R.
So Canon set in train a 5 year development program knowing Nikon would do that om September 2018?
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
So Canon set in train a 5 year development program knowing Nikon would do that om September 2018?

nope. Canon could not finish their x-year development program in time, when Nikon launched. All they could do when they learned what/when Nikon would launch was to just barely finish the 6D III-ish EOS R with re-used 5D IV sensor, lame tracking AF and poor video implementation due to that old sensor's readout limitations.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,335
541
nope. Canon could not finish their x-year development program in time, when Nikon launched. All they could do when they learned what/when Nikon would launch was to just barely finish the 6D III-ish EOS R with re-used 5D IV sensor, lame tracking AF and poor video implementation due to that old sensor's readout limitations.

Who is to say Nikon's launch was not hurried because of what they learned about Canon :) Canon came out with a decent set of lenses so it all seems better coordinated
 

syyeung1

EOS M50
Feb 20, 2018
26
12
Critics of films, music, plays etc rarely have the ability to direct films, write music or plays etc, but it doesn't stop them from being good critics. So, do you really think you have to be a designer genius to criticise design?

Music and films are end products, Cameras are not. I don't think many would be interested to comment of the instruments musicians use, unless of course there is something wrong with the end product due to the tools they use
 

syyeung1

EOS M50
Feb 20, 2018
26
12
nope. Canon could not finish their x-year development program in time, when Nikon launched. All they could do when they learned what/when Nikon would launch was to just barely finish the 6D III-ish EOS R with re-used 5D IV sensor, lame tracking AF and poor video implementation due to that old sensor's readout limitations.

Products will start shipping next month. They had started production of it BEFORE Nikon's announcement. So they must have finalized the spec before that.
 

MayaTlab

EOS 90D
Oct 6, 2015
193
81
So Canon set in train a 5 year development program knowing Nikon would do that om September 2018?

It probably doesn't take 5 years to make a camera like the R pers se. It's the culmination of years of development (in a very interesting PDF linked here Canon mentions that they envisioned DPAF in the late 90s : https://d25tv1xepz39hi.cloudfront.net/2018-09-05/files/EOS_R_An_Interview_with_the_Developers_.pdf), but the implementation of all that research into a concrete camera probably took far less time. Hardware-wise the R is quite conventional in many ways. It's the software side and the UI that probably took, comparatively to other cameras' development, a longer time as it's quite different from existing Canon cameras. There's been a lot of efforts in that area.
The R using a derivative of the 5DIV' sensor is probably the result of Canon wanting to launch the RF system right now combined with bad timing on their sensors production investments. I do believe that Canon would have preferred to launch that system with a more capable sensor, but that between launching right now with a less capable sensor and launching later with a more capable one, they decided that it was better for them to launch right now. That decision was probably taken quite a while ago.
 
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neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,014
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nope. Canon could not finish their x-year development program in time, when Nikon launched.
Lol. You don't know how long it took, you just know it was planned and not finished on time. C'mon, just admit that you know all this stuff and can only post a little bit of it, because you're really Fujio Mitarai posting under a pseudonym. :eek:
 

BeenThere

EOS R
CR Pro
Sep 4, 2012
1,239
666
Eastern Shore
Music and films are end products, Cameras are not. I don't think many would be interested to comment of the instruments musicians use, unless of course there is something wrong with the end product due to the tools they use
Musicians talk about their instruments among themselves and no doubt there is a big variation in quality of instrument, usually reflected in their price. But I get your point. They don’t obsess like photographers.
 
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Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,335
541
they decided that it was better for them to launch right now. That decision was probably taken quite a while ago.

Isn't that a contradiction? Launching 'right now' suggests a rapid response to something but you say the decision was taken 'a while ago'.
I am pretty sure that designing in a specific sensor takes far longer than looking at Nikon's press release in August and deciding you need to bring it forward a few months. Not to mention all the staff training, beta testing,publicity materials, launch planning etc....
It really does not take much grey matter to realise this.
 

MayaTlab

EOS 90D
Oct 6, 2015
193
81
Isn't that a contradiction? Launching 'right now' suggests a rapid response to something but you say the decision was taken 'a while ago'.
I am pretty sure that designing in a specific sensor takes far longer than looking at Nikon's press release in August and deciding you need to bring it forward a few months. Not to mention all the staff training, beta testing,publicity materials, launch planning etc....
It really does not take much grey matter to realise this.

By "right now", I meant "late 2018". That decision could have very well been taken a long time ago. I agree with you that in no way is it a reaction to Nikon's release in late August, that's just impossible. But the R certainly feels to me like Canon's been brought to the FF mirrorless party with a timing that they're not that comfortable with. The last event was less the launch of a specific product, but rather of a new mount, as the rather incoherent body / lens lineup suggests. The R feels to me very much like a demonstrator for the RF glass, and Canon's UI and software innovation, less like a product Canon actually wants to sell en masse like the M50 (if that was their intention they'd have adopted the M50 pricing strategy at launch with a set of lenses in the vein of the 35mm f1.8 RF STM - but then people may have poo-pooed the RF mount as a "cheap" and not that serious mount, EF-M style, just like they did for Nikon's Z f1.8 primes, despite the latters' seemingly ambitious designs).
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,335
541
Unfortunately I take the slightly pessimistic view that the R represents Canon's 'state of the art' for mirrorless. I don't think there is any rush as such and I think they are comfortable with what they have managed to produce. Realistically, what are they missing? A snappy AF and burst speed and I think both of those arise at least in part from sensor limitations and they may as well release this to asses other functionality while they work round the sensor limitations.

This is very much a tester, just like the A7 was a tester and the original M series was a tester. There is no shame in that as long as they are not selling it as something it is not, and I see no evidence of that.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
It is the imbalance between pedestrian EOS R specs and the high-end RF lenses released. They had 4 lenses ready to go, including 2 hi-end ones that are targeted at a "higher market niche". But only the lower-end body was ready and announced along with all 4 lenses. They simply did not manage to get the higher-end body "matching" the 2 hi-end lenses out the door now. Due to whatever delays. Hardware, sensor, software, beancounting - your guess is as good as mine.

Had they planned later launch of higher-end model all along, it would have made more sense to also hold off announcement of 50/1.2 and 28-70/2 for a joint announcement. Now they are probably scrambling to see whether they can get higher-end model finished plus 1 or 2 f/2.8 RF zooms along with it for a launch date in spring 2019.
 
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MayaTlab

EOS 90D
Oct 6, 2015
193
81
I agree, to me it's a tester. Like you I don't see it as a rushed product, far from it. But I do think that it isn't the timing Canon would have chosen if they hadn't felt a little pressure to release now. Honestly I don't think that Canon's salesmen are that comfortable with having to explain yet again why there's a crop in 4K :D.
I would guess that Canon's management doesn't feel the need to spend the big bucks right now to update their sensors production capability to enable stuff like BSI / stacked sensors / copper wiring / (insert Sony marketing buzzword here). That's probably a very deliberate strategy (just like DPAF has been).