Back & Forth, No 4K for EOS 5D Mark IV?

[K]

Practically speaking, 4K isn't really needed nor "here" yet. It will be some time yet before enough people can utilize the increased resolution on their TV's and monitors, as well as the bandwidth ISP's need to increase for streaming 4K.

However, in marketing terms - not having 4K will be disastrous. It's a spec, just like big megapixel numbers. Lacking it is a black mark against the product. And while not important today - Canon's product cycle is 3-4 years. 2018 at best for the next camera? By that time others will have 4K and be throwing it in Canon's face.

I think the same way Canon trumped Nikon with 50 megapixels, they're going to have to add 4K in some iteration to the 5D4. It doesn't have to be great 4K, all they need is to be able to put 4K on the specs.

 

[K-amps]

Practically speaking, 4K isn't really needed nor "here" yet.

Agree on this for the most part... but did you miss the new Sony 4K bravia line up starting at $1299 for the 42" announcement a couple days back... its here.

 

[K]

Practically speaking, 4K isn't really needed nor "here" yet.

Agree on this for the most part... but did you miss the new Sony 4K bravia line up starting at $1299 for the 42" announcement a couple days back... its here.

I'm aware of the availability now, but market saturation will take time. That is why it is not "here" in the sense I used that term. 4K is not the norm by far.

It won't take til 2018 though, which is my point that Canon would be foolish to not include it in the 5D4. I don't know what the latest market figures are for the average consumer lifecycle of TV upgrading - but based on the past, with 4K already on the shelves, Canon will be too late to the game if they don't release this year or early next year.

 

[Tugela]

Practically speaking, 4K isn't really needed nor "here" yet.

Agree on this for the most part... but did you miss the new Sony 4K bravia line up starting at $1299 for the 42" announcement a couple days back... its here.

I'm aware of the availability now, but market saturation will take time. That is why it is not "here" in the sense I used that term. 4K is not the norm by far.

It won't take til 2018 though, which is my point that Canon would be foolish to not include it in the 5D4. I don't know what the latest market figures are for the average consumer lifecycle of TV upgrading - but based on the past, with 4K already on the shelves, Canon will be too late to the game if they don't release this year or early next year.

Professional shooters may still need to deliver in HD, but most users of cameras such as the 5D are not professionals, they are amateurs with money to burn. Those folk by and large will also be the ones buying 4K TV sets, and they will want video they shoot to look good on those sets. Right now anyone wanting to shoot quality video as an amateur pretty much has to get a Sony, Panasonic or Samsung camera. Canon are not in the game.

 

[sanj]

Practically speaking, 4K isn't really needed nor "here" yet.

Agree on this for the most part... but did you miss the new Sony 4K bravia line up starting at $1299 for the 42" announcement a couple days back... its here.

I'm aware of the availability now, but market saturation will take time. That is why it is not "here" in the sense I used that term. 4K is not the norm by far.

It won't take til 2018 though, which is my point that Canon would be foolish to not include it in the 5D4. I don't know what the latest market figures are for the average consumer lifecycle of TV upgrading - but based on the past, with 4K already on the shelves, Canon will be too late to the game if they don't release this year or early next year.

Professional shooters may still need to deliver in HD, but most users of cameras such as the 5D are not professionals, they are amateurs with money to burn. Those folk by and large will also be the ones buying 4K TV sets, and they will want video they shoot to look good on those sets. Right now anyone wanting to shoot quality video as an amateur pretty much has to get a Sony, Panasonic or Samsung camera. Canon are not in the game.

Laugh of the decade. Thank you!

 

[Dphotos]

This is beyond troubling. 4K is now standard for Sony A series cameras and the same for the Panasonic GH4. Canon just does not get it. They have to come up with a mirror less camera similar to the Sony. They are losing a great deal of their market share to Sony. I can't tell you how many people that have sold of their Canon gear in favor of the Sony and Panasonic cameras. Consumers want 4K along with a great stills camera. Looks like Canon will be shooting themselves in their foot. At the recent NAB convention no one was shooting with a Canon 5D Mark lll when covering the event like last year or the year before they have all switched to the lighter weight Sony cameras. I own two Canon 5D Mark lll cameras. I am fine with the Megapixels I get out of my camera and have no need for 36 megapixels along with the same HD video settings. I will not be buying a new Canon camera this year. Canon needs to slim down their camera line and give the 5D Mark lll professionals what they need and desire.

 

[jdramirez]

Maybe this is just an old wives tale, but I was of the understanding that the heavier the body, the more stable the camera is when pressing the shutter.

On a personal level, I do not mind having a heavy body or lens because I know that you cannot cheat physics and go with light gear in order to achieve the same effect.

 

[scandale]

Like most people here, i'll switch from canon to another platform if they decide to don't add 4K to their cameras. I hadn't bought their 5D3 for the same reason.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Practically speaking, 4K isn't really needed nor "here" yet.

Agree on this for the most part... but did you miss the new Sony 4K bravia line up starting at $1299 for the 42" announcement a couple days back... its here.

I'm aware of the availability now, but market saturation will take time. That is why it is not "here" in the sense I used that term. 4K is not the norm by far.

It won't take til 2018 though, which is my point that Canon would be foolish to not include it in the 5D4. I don't know what the latest market figures are for the average consumer lifecycle of TV upgrading - but based on the past, with 4K already on the shelves, Canon will be too late to the game if they don't release this year or early next year.

Plus a 5D4 buyer is not the average buyer. The 5D4 buyer may already be running a UHD monitor and/or HDTV. At the very least all they film now, suddenly looks way better in a year or two. Waht if someone takes a trip to some amazing place this year or the next? I bet they'd rather have it captured in 4k. Plus you can use it to get much better HD (more DR, better detail, closer to 4:4:4, etc.), for panning, extra stabilization, etc. etc. even if you only have an HD screen.

UHD monitors make a wonder for stills photography too and there is infinite material out there already for peopl eto make use of in the stills department that is way beyond UHD.

Who knows when decent 4k streaming arrives, but who cares? Streaming stinks for picture and audio quality. It's not the way to go. It just wasted internet bandwidth and drives up high speed connection costs for no great reason.

 

[clarksbrother]

Plus a 5D4 buyer is not the average buyer. The 5D4 buyer may already be running a UHD monitor and/or HDTV. At the very least all they film now, suddenly looks way better in a year or two. Waht if someone takes a trip to some amazing place this year or the next? I bet they'd rather have it captured in 4k. Plus you can use it to get much better HD (more DR, better detail, closer to 4:4:4, etc.), for panning, extra stabilization, etc. etc. even if you only have an HD screen.

UHD monitors make a wonder for stills photography too and there is infinite material out there already for people to make use of in the stills department that is way beyond UHD.

+1

 

[dak723]

Like most people here, i'll switch from canon to another platform if they decide to don't add 4K to their cameras. I hadn't bought their 5D3 for the same reason.

I see you are new to posting, so you might have missed the poll that says that the majority of folks here are NOT interested in 4K and only 33% say they are. So most people here are not switching to another platform. If it is so important for you, by all means, switch!

Considering less than 1% of households have a 4K TV and various industry experts predict 4K will become affordable for the masses in 10 to 12 years, the users on this forum are probably not representative of the average DSLR buyer.

 

[dolina]

Considering less than 1% of households have a 4K TV and various industry experts predict 4K will become affordable for the masses in 10 to 12 years, the users on this forum are probably not representative of the average DSLR buyer.

Same reason why people on photo forums like this will not give up their dedicated still camera for a smartphone despite the smartphone selling 1.3 billion units vs less than 44 million dedicated still cameras in 2014.

But for events like weddings I would insist the outfit covering would record the ceremonies in 4K.

4K by your golden anniversary would be like color SDTV when it transitioned from black and white.

 

[clarksbrother]

Like most people here, i'll switch from canon to another platform if they decide to don't add 4K to their cameras. I hadn't bought their 5D3 for the same reason.

I see you are new to posting, so you might have missed the poll that says that the majority of folks here are NOT interested in 4K and only 33% say they are. So most people here are not switching to another platform. If it is so important for you, by all means, switch!

Considering less than 1% of households have a 4K TV and various industry experts predict 4K will become affordable for the masses in 10 to 12 years, the users on this forum are probably not representative of the average DSLR buyer.

Speaking as someone who works in broadcasting and who has to consider the implications of changing formats and 4K TV adoption, here's my take.

For 2014, 20% of all global TV sales were 4K. Projections from major manufacturers are expecting sales to double year over year from 2014 to 2015 and the same again into 2016. (Specific projections not available at the moment beyond 2016).

In terms of market penetration, 4K TV is expected to have similar (and possibly accelerated growth) as compared to the adoption of HDTV. Initial sales curves are already bearing this out. In the 5 years from the introduction of HDTV, household HDTV penetration topped 43% (106.5M total TV households / 46M HDTV households).

In terms of the affordability statistic you mention, I would LOVE to see specific sources because nowhere have I seen anything even REMOTELY that pessimistic. Most analysts expect prices to be within a 20% premium of HDTV sets within 2-3 years with parity expected around 4-5 years. Heck, you can buy 4K TVs in the range of 50 inches now for under $500. (http://www.walmart.com/ip/39664946?u1=VlQwcC1Bb0tNckFBQURkbDlxWUFBQUF4&oid=368707.1&wmlspartner=NKa3hZyYoHA&sourceid=33265407533303424077&affillinktype=10&veh=aff)

The main debate here is the intelligence of the BUSINESS decision by Canon to either include or exclude 4K functionality from the next 5D series camera. You'd have a pretty hard time convincing me its not a net negative for Canon to exclude the functionality.

 

[mkabi]

Like most people here, i'll switch from canon to another platform if they decide to don't add 4K to their cameras. I hadn't bought their 5D3 for the same reason.

I see you are new to posting, so you might have missed the poll that says that the majority of folks here are NOT interested in 4K and only 33% say they are. So most people here are not switching to another platform. If it is so important for you, by all means, switch!

Considering less than 1% of households have a 4K TV and various industry experts predict 4K will become affordable for the masses in 10 to 12 years, the users on this forum are probably not representative of the average DSLR buyer.

Speaking as someone who works in broadcasting and who has to consider the implications of changing formats and 4K TV adoption, here's my take.

For 2014, 20% of all global TV sales were 4K. Projections from major manufacturers are expecting sales to double year over year from 2014 to 2015 and the same again into 2016. (Specific projections not available at the moment beyond 2016).

In terms of market penetration, 4K TV is expected to have similar (and possibly accelerated growth) as compared to the adoption of HDTV. Initial sales curves are already bearing this out. In the 5 years from the introduction of HDTV, household HDTV penetration topped 43% (106.5M total TV households / 46M HDTV households).

In terms of the affordability statistic you mention, I would LOVE to see specific sources because nowhere have I seen anything even REMOTELY that pessimistic. Most analysts expect prices to be within a 20% premium of HDTV sets within 2-3 years with parity expected around 4-5 years. Heck, you can buy 4K TVs in the range of 50 inches now for under $500. (http://www.walmart.com/ip/39664946?u1=VlQwcC1Bb0tNckFBQURkbDlxWUFBQUF4&oid=368707.1&wmlspartner=NKa3hZyYoHA&sourceid=33265407533303424077&affillinktype=10&veh=aff)

The main debate here is the intelligence of the BUSINESS decision by Canon to either include or exclude 4K functionality from the next 5D series camera. You'd have a pretty hard time convincing me its not a net negative for Canon to exclude the functionality.

Deja vu... I swear I have read this somewhere else... perhaps in the same thread???
Just so you know... 20% global sales is probably about the same as or less than 1% of households.

Unless you are thinking that every 100 households that you visit, 20 of them will have 4K TVs...
If thats what you truly think, I suggest that you visit a 100 of your friends and family, and check their TV sets. If you don't have 100 friends/family, at least go around the neighborhood. 20% is a lot... thats 1 in every 5.

 

[dolina]

I know the TV upgrade cycle is a a lot longer than say a typical smartphone or PC upgrade cycle. If I recall correctly it's in the range of 7-8 years?

Another thing to consider is that 1 out of every 4 millennials do not own a TV. They watch their "TV" on other devices like their computer, tablet or smartphone.

Finally you have to think of content that take away from TV time like say the Internet and computer games.

Steam sale anyone?

 

[Tugela]

Like most people here, i'll switch from canon to another platform if they decide to don't add 4K to their cameras. I hadn't bought their 5D3 for the same reason.

I see you are new to posting, so you might have missed the poll that says that the majority of folks here are NOT interested in 4K and only 33% say they are. So most people here are not switching to another platform. If it is so important for you, by all means, switch!

Considering less than 1% of households have a 4K TV and various industry experts predict 4K will become affordable for the masses in 10 to 12 years, the users on this forum are probably not representative of the average DSLR buyer.

Considering that the poll was responded to mostly by people who shoot stills and see video as a threat, or know very little about shooting it, most of them voted "no" basically out of ignorance or spite.

As for 4K not "becoming affordable for the masses", I have news for you - it is already "affordable for the masses". It isn't going to take 10-12 years as you claim, it is happening right now. There are lots of models under $1K already. for example:

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/lg-electronics-lg-40-4k-ultra-hd-120hz-led-smart-tv-40ub8000-black-40ub8000/10322874.aspx?path=f7cb459a8a68dad5f851d09374eda314en02

A 40 inch 120Hz 4K TV for CDN$650, likely a lot less for US$.

 

[Tugela]

Like most people here, i'll switch from canon to another platform if they decide to don't add 4K to their cameras. I hadn't bought their 5D3 for the same reason.

I see you are new to posting, so you might have missed the poll that says that the majority of folks here are NOT interested in 4K and only 33% say they are. So most people here are not switching to another platform. If it is so important for you, by all means, switch!

Considering less than 1% of households have a 4K TV and various industry experts predict 4K will become affordable for the masses in 10 to 12 years, the users on this forum are probably not representative of the average DSLR buyer.

Speaking as someone who works in broadcasting and who has to consider the implications of changing formats and 4K TV adoption, here's my take.

For 2014, 20% of all global TV sales were 4K. Projections from major manufacturers are expecting sales to double year over year from 2014 to 2015 and the same again into 2016. (Specific projections not available at the moment beyond 2016).

In terms of market penetration, 4K TV is expected to have similar (and possibly accelerated growth) as compared to the adoption of HDTV. Initial sales curves are already bearing this out. In the 5 years from the introduction of HDTV, household HDTV penetration topped 43% (106.5M total TV households / 46M HDTV households).

In terms of the affordability statistic you mention, I would LOVE to see specific sources because nowhere have I seen anything even REMOTELY that pessimistic. Most analysts expect prices to be within a 20% premium of HDTV sets within 2-3 years with parity expected around 4-5 years. Heck, you can buy 4K TVs in the range of 50 inches now for under $500. (http://www.walmart.com/ip/39664946?u1=VlQwcC1Bb0tNckFBQURkbDlxWUFBQUF4&oid=368707.1&wmlspartner=NKa3hZyYoHA&sourceid=33265407533303424077&affillinktype=10&veh=aff)

The main debate here is the intelligence of the BUSINESS decision by Canon to either include or exclude 4K functionality from the next 5D series camera. You'd have a pretty hard time convincing me its not a net negative for Canon to exclude the functionality.

Deja vu... I swear I have read this somewhere else... perhaps in the same thread???
Just so you know... 20% global sales is probably about the same as or less than 1% of households.

Unless you are thinking that every 100 households that you visit, 20 of them will have 4K TVs...
If thats what you truly think, I suggest that you visit a 100 of your friends and family, and check their TV sets. If you don't have 100 friends/family, at least go around the neighborhood. 20% is a lot... thats 1 in every 5.

If TV replacement rates are averageing 7-8 years, and the majority of HD sets out there are approaching that age, it follows that a majority will be replaced in the next 4 years or so. If 20% of sets being sold today are 4K, and that number is expected to rapidly increase in the next two years, it will end up that 4K will have very significant market penetration in the next few years. 50% in the next 4 years is entirely a reasonable number.

When you are doing projections you need to consider where the market is going, not where it has been or currently is.

 

[mkabi]

When you are doing projections you need to consider where the market is going, not where it has been or currently is.

Exactly and if that is the case, 4K Cameras has been on the market since 2003 as per wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution.
NAB 2015, it was all about 6K+
People buying now, have no choice but to get 4K TVs.
But, in 4 years... there better be 8K TVs.

 

[clarksbrother]

When you are doing projections you need to consider where the market is going, not where it has been or currently is.

Exactly and if that is the case, 4K Cameras has been on the market since 2003 as per wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution.
NAB 2015, it was all about 6K+
People buying now, have no choice but to get 4K TVs.
But, in 4 years... there better be 8K TVs.

You joke, but that is the general thought on where the format roadmap will end up. In broadcast circles many are deciding when/how to upgrade production formats. Whether to upgrade to a 4K infrastructure or hold out for something more.

 

[jdramirez]

When you are doing projections you need to consider where the market is going, not where it has been or currently is.

Exactly and if that is the case, 4K Cameras has been on the market since 2003 as per wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution.
NAB 2015, it was all about 6K+
People buying now, have no choice but to get 4K TVs.
But, in 4 years... there better be 8K TVs.

You joke, but that is the general thought on where the format roadmap will end up. In broadcast circles many are deciding when/how to upgrade production formats. Whether to upgrade to a 4K infrastructure or hold out for something more.

Then I'm definitely waiting to buy a 4k projector. Stupid broadcasters delaying their decision.