Breakthrough coming out with glass ND grads!

[snappy604]

assume this doesn't work with the sigma 20mm 1.4 art?

Correct. You need lens filter threads for most standard systems like this.

As I'm guessing you probably have gathered, lenses with...

• No filter threads
• Non-removable/integral lens hoods
• Focal lengths under 16mm FF (ballpark, it varies)

...generally require (a) larger filters than 100mm and (b) some sort of collet/outrigger setup that works off of the outer barrel (or integral lens hood) of the lens.

These are usually sold in two pieces -- generic stuff for oversize filters and specific mounting hardware for specific lenses.
-reducing rest of quote-

thanks for the info,

Bought the 20mm 1.4 art for band pics in low light, tight situations with a crop camera. I have had nice results with the 35mm but it's too zoomed for crop camera (hope full frame when I can save $). This is my first lens without filter threads, for my main use not as important.

However I have been wanting to get into ND filters and landscape a bit and the lens is really quite nice for that. This this caught my eye as a possible platform. Most casual reading of ND Filters has left me a bit confused as for what level to use, what adapters, what etc. Been burned by cheap stuff, so have been wanting to see what people here use (sorry, I'm likely wandering off topic). Sounds like there are adapters from amazon that would work with the specific lens (nisi and orca?) .. would the ND filter talked about here work with that or maybe best to look at other solutions?

- edit I see that you did put some links that have more info, thanks!

 

[ahsanford]

Bought the 20mm 1.4 art for band pics in low light, tight situations with a crop camera. I have had nice results with the 35mm but it's too zoomed for crop camera (hope full frame when I can save $). This is my first lens without filter threads, for my main use not as important.

However I have been wanting to get into ND filters and landscape a bit and the lens is really quite nice for that. This this caught my eye as a possible platform. Most casual reading of ND Filters has left me a bit confused as for what level to use, what adapters, what etc. Been burned by cheap stuff, so have been wanting to see what people here use (sorry, I'm likely wandering off topic). Sounds like there are adapters from amazon that would work with the specific lens (nisi and orca?) .. would the ND filter talked about here work with that or maybe best to look at other solutions?

- edit I see that you did put some links that have more info, thanks!

Sadly, you've got a lens that warrants an ultra-ultrawide solution (just to mount something on that monster) but on crop, vignetting is effectively a non-issue for you (32mm FF equivalent). That kind of stinks as I believe you'll be forced to buy the larger 150mm-ish filters but your field of view doesn't really require them. So you'd be paying more than you need to. That said, you may own that lens longer than you own your camera, so you'll be future-proofed for a future move to full-frame someday.

No idea on NiSi or Orca. Lee is the original/pricey name in town, and of late Tiffen, Cokin and Formatt-Hitech have offered stronger offerings that work similarly. Wonderpana is supposed to be good as well, but I think they are more specialized in huge filter setups for big ultrawides.

Also, Kickstarter ideas from companies like Breakthrough (see first post on this thread) and Wine Country Camera have surfaced as the 'clever nonconformists' sort of disruptive innovators, and I'd love to see more marketing materials, reviews etc. from those.

- A

 

[Don Haines]

Bought the 20mm 1.4 art for band pics in low light, tight situations with a crop camera. I have had nice results with the 35mm but it's too zoomed for crop camera (hope full frame when I can save $). This is my first lens without filter threads, for my main use not as important.

However I have been wanting to get into ND filters and landscape a bit and the lens is really quite nice for that. This this caught my eye as a possible platform. Most casual reading of ND Filters has left me a bit confused as for what level to use, what adapters, what etc. Been burned by cheap stuff, so have been wanting to see what people here use (sorry, I'm likely wandering off topic). Sounds like there are adapters from amazon that would work with the specific lens (nisi and orca?) .. would the ND filter talked about here work with that or maybe best to look at other solutions?

- edit I see that you did put some links that have more info, thanks!

Sadly, you've got a lens that warrants an ultra-ultrawide solution (just to mount something on that monster) but on crop, vignetting is effectively a non-issue for you (32mm FF equivalent). That kind of stinks as I believe you'll be forced to buy the larger 150mm-ish filters but your field of view doesn't really require them. So you'd be paying more than you need to. That said, you may own that lens longer than you own your camera, so you'll be future-proofed for a future move to full-frame someday.

No idea on NiSi or Orca. Lee is the original/pricey name in town, and of late Tiffen, Cokin and Formatt-Hitech have offered stronger offerings that work similarly. Wonderpana is supposed to be good as well, but I think they are more specialized in huge filter setups for big ultrawides.

Also, Kickstarter ideas from companies like Breakthrough (see first post on this thread) and Wine Country Camera have surfaced as the 'clever nonconformists' sort of disruptive innovators, and I'd love to see more marketing materials, reviews etc. from those.

- A

I'm following this as I am about to pull the trigger on the 20 ART, and when the 6D2 comes out, one of those as well. I agree that the lens is overkill for a crop camera, but then again, it is quite the lens!

 

[Antono Refa]

The Lee (edit: + SINGH-RAY) buyback is a major selling point for me.

Quite aggressive marketing strategy. Interesting to see.

It isn't, due to the small letters: "With the launch of the X100 Filter System, Breakthrough Photography is also starting a new buyback program where they will buy any Singh-Ray or Lee GND filter purchased within the last 15 years from an approved retailer, and provide the photographer with 100% of the value paid on the GNDs in the form of a gift card, which never expires. Valid until June 1st, 2017."

It's a five weeks deal, which leaves precious little time to check if those new filters are as good as promised, and is good only if the customer kept the receipts to prove the filter was bought from a short list of sellers (B&H Adorama, Samy's, Creve Coeur Camera, Hunt's Photo & Video, Camera West or Amazon, Singh-Ray or Lee).

 

[ahsanford]

The Lee (edit: + SINGH-RAY) buyback is a major selling point for me.

Quite aggressive marketing strategy. Interesting to see.

It isn't, due to the small letters: "With the launch of the X100 Filter System, Breakthrough Photography is also starting a new buyback program where they will buy any Singh-Ray or Lee GND filter purchased within the last 15 years from an approved retailer, and provide the photographer with 100% of the value paid on the GNDs in the form of a gift card, which never expires. Valid until June 1st, 2017."

It's a five weeks deal, which leaves precious little time to check if those new filters are as good as promised, and is good only if the customer kept the receipts to prove the filter was bought from a short list of sellers (B&H Adorama, Samy's, Creve Coeur Camera, Hunt's Photo & Video, Camera West or Amazon, Singh-Ray or Lee).

I actually qualify as receipts are fairly easy to obtain from my order history at B&H, Amazon, etc. I could totally do this. And 3 slots + CPL and no vignetting at 16mm with 100mm filters is a product I'd seriously look at if it could be substantiated.

But I'm sure as hell not going to opt in and replace all my gear on the promise of 'trust me'. I'll wait for reviews and flip my gear independently of this deal if these bonkers claims turn out to be true and this passes muster as a solid product.

- A

 

[cayenne]

Bought the 20mm 1.4 art for band pics in low light, tight situations with a crop camera. I have had nice results with the 35mm but it's too zoomed for crop camera (hope full frame when I can save $). This is my first lens without filter threads, for my main use not as important.

However I have been wanting to get into ND filters and landscape a bit and the lens is really quite nice for that. This this caught my eye as a possible platform. Most casual reading of ND Filters has left me a bit confused as for what level to use, what adapters, what etc. Been burned by cheap stuff, so have been wanting to see what people here use (sorry, I'm likely wandering off topic). Sounds like there are adapters from amazon that would work with the specific lens (nisi and orca?) .. would the ND filter talked about here work with that or maybe best to look at other solutions?

- edit I see that you did put some links that have more info, thanks!

Sadly, you've got a lens that warrants an ultra-ultrawide solution (just to mount something on that monster) but on crop, vignetting is effectively a non-issue for you (32mm FF equivalent). That kind of stinks as I believe you'll be forced to buy the larger 150mm-ish filters but your field of view doesn't really require them. So you'd be paying more than you need to. That said, you may own that lens longer than you own your camera, so you'll be future-proofed for a future move to full-frame someday.

No idea on NiSi or Orca. Lee is the original/pricey name in town, and of late Tiffen, Cokin and Formatt-Hitech have offered stronger offerings that work similarly. Wonderpana is supposed to be good as well, but I think they are more specialized in huge filter setups for big ultrawides.

Also, Kickstarter ideas from companies like Breakthrough (see first post on this thread) and Wine Country Camera have surfaced as the 'clever nonconformists' sort of disruptive innovators, and I'd love to see more marketing materials, reviews etc. from those.

- A

WoW!!

That Wine Country Camera filter system looks interesting.....
What are ya'lls thoughts on that? It seems to have a built in polarizer...would that solve some/many of the problems ya'll see with Lee and the Breakthrough systems?


C

 

[ahsanford]

WoW!!

That Wine Country Camera filter system looks interesting.....
What are ya'lls thoughts on that? It seems to have a built in polarizer...would that solve some/many of the problems ya'll see with Lee and the Breakthrough systems?

C

Not sure. Depends on the problem you are talking about.

Lee: The CPL sits out in front of the stack of ND/ND grads and the biggest problem -- more a reality in all these systems -- is vignetting. That CPL 'eats' perhaps 4mm of FL, i.e I get vignette free shots with two slots down to 16mm without the CPL in place, but it will vignette all the way up to 20mm if I put the CPL in place*. Secondarily, the Lee sits up on a kluge-y little 105mm ring (see below) that could allow light leaks between the that ring and the slotted filters -- that hasn't been a problem for me, but I suppose it's an area for improvement. Graham (from Breakthrough, the person earlier on this thread) has also alleged that a CPL out in front hurts your image sharpness on high res sensors, but I've never seen corroborated by others.

*You can get those 4mm back if you buy a rare and very expensive CPL that is a 105mm thread in the back but a 120mm diameter in the front; it's a 'stepped' CPL that costs something batsh-- crazy like $500 or so. So if you are a nut about having your cake and eating it, too, this is an option.

Breakthrough / Wine Country: Their stack is step-up adaptor ring to 100mm, 100mm CPL, and then the holder system. That takes the CPL out of the firing line for vignetting and eliminates it as a source of light leaks, but it pushes the ND/ND Grad slots further away from the front element of the camera, so the slot in filters/holder are undoubtedly the limiting factor for vignetting. Further, those 'vaults' accept the standard 100x100x2 or 100x150x2 filters and the vaults themselves add thickness, so I would be surprised if this Wine Country rig did any better than Lee in stacking them all together into a thinner package -- also note that they say nothing about how wide a FL before vignetting happens. The apparatus looks slick but comically over-engineered, expensive, and piece-y.

So all of these systems appear to do the job, it's just a question of which prioritizes the thing you care about. If you love fancy tech and really hate light leaks, the WC seems an interesting option. If you want something simple and a known performer w.r.t. vignetting, go Lee.

- A

 

[LesC]

The WCC system looks really nice but not cheap if you need to buy a new polariser too. Good that the 'vaults' take Lee filters too but I wonder if they take a big stopper too due the the felt gasket?

I'm not sure if it's perhaps a little over- engineered but nicer than the Lee holder. I like my Lee filters but the holder really is pretty cheap & not that well made.

 

[ahsanford]

The WCC system looks really nice but not cheap if you need to buy a new polariser too. Good that the 'vaults' take Lee filters too but I wonder if they take a big stopper too due the the felt gasket?

I'm not sure if it's perhaps a little over- engineered but nicer than the Lee holder. I like my Lee filters but the holder really is pretty cheap & not that well made.

It's all about the vignetting for me. WCC is claiming (on their FAQ) that they generally support around 17mm FF (as lenses do vary), but there's a pretty thick CPL in place and a three slot holder that you cannot disassemble. From the two reviews I've read (both very positive) -- one simply parroted the 17mm company vignetting statement and did not check it, and the other only tested it on a 24-70 and the word 'vignetting' is nowhere to be found in the review. :

But yes, the Lee holder is super budget. This WCC (and some aluminum nicer Lee knockoffs I've seen) seem to be aimed at the 'why am I putting nice $200+ filters into a cheap holder?' crowd.

- A

 

[LesC]

Not that clear how the WCC holder fits on to the adaptor or rather stays on it? If it's just the brass screw holding it I presume you can't rotate the holder...

 

[ahsanford]

Not that clear how the WCC holder fits on to the adaptor or rather stays on it? If it's just the brass screw holding it I presume you can't rotate the holder...

Oh, it rotates:
https://youtu.be/EEdm5wPYGUI?t=15m27s

You have to be able to rotate the holder, that's sort of a ground floor expectation of these setups.

I see little fault in their design other than the whole over-engineering of it all (the buttons, locks, coin keys, etc.), and what the vignetting looks like between 16-20mm (stated but not demonstrated).

- A

 

[Loswr]

I see little fault in their design other than the whole over-engineering of it all...

But dude, it has groovy wooden handles and knobs that harken back to my parents' sweet ride!

Man, I miss cranking the tunes on the 8-track!

;D

 

[LesC]

I used their 'contact us' facility to ask about holder rotation & got a prompt reply: "The knob holds the ring, you can loosen it and rotate it to any degree"

However I'm still not certain how/if the holder stays on the adaptor if the knob is not tightened or if you have to hold the holder in place until you tighten the knob...

 

[ahsanford]

I used their 'contact us' facility to ask about holder rotation & got a prompt reply: "The knob holds the ring, you can loosen it and rotate it to any degree"

However I'm still not certain how/if the holder stays on the adaptor if the knob is not tightened or if you have to hold the holder in place until you tighten the knob...

Read reviews, see YouTube unboxings, etc. There seem to be a number of redundancies to lock things down once you have the way you want it. I'd be really surprised if one forgotten screw turn leads to a dropped holder full of glass, but I've never used the system.

- A

 

[LesC]

So I asked one of the guys who did a Youtube review & he confirmed that when you release the screw, nothing holds the filter to the adaptor - you have to hold the holder whilst rotating it & then tighten the screw to secure it again.

I also find it odd that there is no way to secure the filter vault nearest to the lens like you can with the other two slots.

These seem two weaknesses in a system that is arguably over-engineered in all other areas. Think for now I'll (reluctantly) be sticking with the Lee holder.

 

[jeffa4444]

Are those filters going to be compatible with Lee holder? While their holder looks great it doesn't seem to support CPL at all and it doesn't have compatibility with 17mm TS.

Yes, standard 2.0mm - no problem.

CPL behind holder. If photographers want to do 105mm on front even though it kills sharpness I can add it to the holder

Graham

Please provide proof of this statement. Ive tested this after your claims and had a renown optical designer in Switzerland check it also. In both cases we found no difference. We used various testing methods (CIPA high resolution chart on even field lighting sphere shot using Canon 5DSr, projection, collimation). Optical quality of materials and number of filters stacked does affect image quality, placement no. Please also keep in mind in Cinematography polarisers are used at the rear because they don't attach to the lens and we use hoods for the fitment of mattes so physically we cannot place them there, its not an optical reason.

 

[jeffa4444]

2) Vignetting is not worsened by using a CPL on the lens before you stack up the adaptor ring and holder. So: extending your lens' front filter threads further out from your front element at the same diameter -- which is one of many things a CPL does -- doesn't worsen the 'stack' that could occlude your chosen FL's FOV.
...
And I'm mentally calling BS on #2 above, something I could probably verify at home with 15 minutes and a with/without test of an on-lens CPL behind the stack.

...give me the fine print on 16mm vignette-free shots with three filters in front...

I designed the holder to have no vignetting down to 16mm, so there's no vignetting down to 16mm.

Not exactly 'the fine print'. How about this? I'll show you my data, and you show us yours...



The mount of a standard (F-Pro) mount B+W CPL is 7 mm thick. At f/2.8, the 16-35mm f/2.8L II has increased optical vignetting with an 8.4 mm filter stack, and with a 10 mm filter stack there is mechanical vignetting.

So, based on my data, I see four possibilities:

1) Your stack of the adapter and holder is less than 3 mm thick before the diameter begins to widen.

2) You have magical LR correction profiles for UWA lenses that can fabricate data where mechanical vigentting blocks light from reaching the sensor.

3) You need to provide some footnotes (aka 'fine print') – to avoid vigentting, one must use a CPL of less than a certain thickness (e.g., the B+W XS-Pro CPL is 4 mm thick), and/or one must use apertures of f/8 or narrower, etc.

4) You have data demonstrating a lack of vignetting with a standard CPL stacked behind your adapter/holder.

If it's #1, please let us know. If it's #2, please share your magical LR profiles. If it's #3, please update your website and your customer service information accordingly. If it's #4, please share your data.

Of course, there's also a 5th possibility...that you're wrong and your claim is bogus. Given that Lee Filters (who've been making filters for >40 years) 'has no idea what they're doing', and B+W (who've been making filters for ~70 years) lie about their transmission curves, I highly doubt you'll admit to being wrong, even if that's exactly the case here.

To add to this a CPL generally only affectively works down to 22-24mm on FF beyond that it will start to show that inverted bell shape in blue skies progressively getting worse down to 16mm its purely down to the field of view.

 

[ahsanford]

To add to this a CPL generally only affectively works down to 22-24mm on FF beyond that it will start to show that inverted bell shape in blue skies progressively getting worse down to 16mm its purely down to the field of view.

Oh I think it's even a higher FL than that. You can see CPL 'pseudo-vignetting' (i.e. uneven polarizing effect due to the field of view) even on a 28 or 35 prime FF. It's not as prominent/noticeable as with (say) a 16mm shot, but it's there.

But people who shoot landcapes with $2000 lenses and $500-1000 of filters in front of that lens on $3500 cameras know that already yet they still want a CPL for UWA work -- just for another reason. They want it to tame reflections in windows, water/waterfalls, etc. And craftier folks yet will still go after traditional CPL color pop / sky darkening, but the sky in frame is carefully managed (by framing, foliage, etc.) to not show that uneven darkening.

So CPLs do something you can't do in post and it can help compositions of any FL.

I see a CPL on my 16-35 f/4L IS as an audible I call on when it's needed. I don't use it all the time. So I prefer it on the outside so I can easily add/remove it. So, yeah, I prefer my Lee setup that way. It's not perfect, and using the CPL on that setup turns my 16-35 into a 20-35 :, but it's a lot nicer than having to tear down the holder and remount it without a CPL in place, IMHO.

- A

 

[Random Orbits]

...

I see a CPL on my 16-35 f/4L IS as an audible I call on when it's needed. I don't use it all the time. So I prefer it on the outside so I can easily add/remove it. So, yeah, I prefer my Lee setup that way. It's not perfect, and using the CPL on that setup turns my 16-35 into a 20-35 :, but it's a lot nicer than having to tear down the holder and remount it without a CPL in place, IMHO.

- A

It might be a reason where the Breakthrough system has an advantage. It is selling CPLs that have the ND effect in them, and that potentially saves a slot. The CPL is one of the more expensive layers and minimizing its size is cost effective.

Personally, I've considered a 100mm system in the past but color cast and resin NDs have been concerns. I bought and tried a B+W 10 stop filter and there was a significant color shift, which had stopped me from buying other high density filters.

I do not have a 100mm system, so for me I'd have to buy the step up ring and filter holders but the prices for those are reasonable. But for others that are already invested in other systems, then the cost to try it is lower -- just a single grad/ND sheet. Or just wait for the reviews to arrive.

The vignetting issue is lens dependent. Neuro's data is for the 16-35 f/2.8 II, and I thought I read either here or the kickstarter site that Graham claimed no vignetting for the 16-35 f/4 IS. The 16-35 f/2.8 II has 82mm filter threads but the 16-35 f/4 IS has 77mm filter threads. Perhaps that is the reason for the claim of no vignetting. Of course the only lenses that I care about are the ones I own... ;D

 

[ahsanford]

It might be a reason where the Breakthrough system has an advantage. It is selling CPLs that have the ND effect in them, and that potentially saves a slot. The CPL is one of the more expensive layers and minimizing its size is cost effective.

...until you have to buy a 'Dark CPL' for every level of darkening you want. :

But if you can overcome that caveat, the 'saving a slot' idea is a neat way to thin your stack and fight vignetting.

The vignetting issue is lens dependent.

Yes it is -- it's more than just FL + sensor size. I believe the key variable is how close the lens's filter ring is to the front element. The 16-35 f/4L IS does this about as good as you can, and that tested very well for me on my Lee 2 slot + CPL setup: 16mm clean shot without the CPL in place, 20mm with the CPL in place.

Others recognize this issue and rather than give 'kinda/sorta vignetting might happen' guidance, they are proactively mapping it out. Wine Country Camera is apparently going to build a database of how their holder works on a various lenses.

- A