Canon 70d center focus point -bug- problem

[Keith_Reeder]

I have 70D and yesterday I have encountered this problem with central focus point.

Sigma 18-35 1.8 lens:
Central point at 1.8, more than 50% miss
Other points at 1.8, less than 10% miss

I'm very disappointed.

How have you set the AF menu options up?

Which AF Point mode are you using?

And AI Servo? AI Focus? One Shot?

I ask because there's a recurring theme in these discussions of user error...

I've owned a 70D for several months now, and used it pretty hard during that time - and it has performed superbly at wider (f/1.8 to f/2.8 ) apertures: this is hand-holding long(er) lenses like the Sigma 70-200mm and 120-300mm (shooting birds, aircraft and fast motor sport, which are pretty significant AF challenges), and the Canon f/1.8 prime, which isn't renowned for sharpness wide open or great AF, but which is as sharp - and as consistent in focus - as I could wish for on the 70D.

Here's the thing. All cameras AF (and meter) wide open: so if every single time anyone presses the shutter button your lens is wide open, how is this "problem" not manifesting at any aperture?

Yet the people who reckon they're victims seem pretty clear that it's "only" at maximum aperture as they've set it. How can that be?

It strongly suggests a flawed testing regime, the normal impact on DoF of shooting wide open, and unrealistic/uninformed expectations. I've seen no evidence to support any claims that there's a ubiquitous design/production flaw in the 70D.

Some obviously faulty individual cameras? Yep. Lots of user error? Yep. An inherent flaw in the camera. Nope...

 

[Lightmaster]

Yet the people who reckon they're victims seem pretty clear that it's "only" at maximum aperture as they've set it. How can that be?

well there could be a dozend causes.
a camera is a computer these days... all kind of strange errors can happen.

fact is that people can reproduce the error with the 70D and some(!) lenses.

and people do not become stupid when they change from a 60D, 600D (that behaves fine) to a 70D.
and no amount of AFMA on the 70D helps to solve the problem.

i have seen it myself with a 24mm f1.4 and a 70D on a tripod and studio lighting.
you can´t make it much easier for a camera to focus.

it was simply impossible to get really sharp images with the 70D, center AF, wide open apperture and phase AF.
with the the other two cameras it was no problem.
with LV it was no problem.

 

[Keith_Reeder]

well there could be a dozend causes.

Give me three.

fact is that people can reproduce the error with the 70D and some(!) lenses.

Fact is, everything I've seen (and God knows, I've seen a lot) can easily (much more easily) be explained by user error and/or a faulty camera, the existence of which nobody denies.

and people do not become stupid when they change from a 60D (that behaves fine) to a 70D

.
Both irrelevant - I've been aware of a learning curve every time I've moved from camera to camera, 30D-40D-7D-70D, and every single time, initial concerns about AF (or whatever) have simply faded away as I've used the new body more - and apocryphal: saying "my old camera didn't do this" without (ever) demonstrating how they've ruled themselves out as the problem, proves nothing.

i have seen it myself with a 24mm f1.4 and a 70D on a tripod and studio lighting.

So you say. Let's see the examples; the testing methodology; the in-camera set-up; the Exif; the before-and-after-AFMA; the evidence that the lens works perfectly on other cameras.

Again, nobody's saying that your 70D might not be flakey - it happens - but it's a million miles from "my camera is faulty" to "all 70Ds are inherentely flawed"...

 

[Lightmaster]

well there could be a dozend causes.

Give me three.

i gave you one good one.

Both irrelevant - I've been aware of a learning curve every time I've moved from camera to camera, 30D-40D-7D-70D, and every single time, initial concerns about AF (or whatever) have simply faded away as I've used the new body more - and apocryphal: saying "I can reproduce a problem" without (ever) demonstrating how they've ruled themselves out as the problem, therefore proves nothing.

it´s pretty irrelevant what you have seen.

you can´t say all the people who report this are stupid or unable to use a camera.
well you can but that would make you sound like an a-hole.

and im pretty sure the learning curve is not to steep in this AF case.... :

Aaoin, nobody's saying that your 70D might not be flakey - it happens - but it's a million miles from "my camera is faulty" to "all 70Ds are inherentely flawed"...

when there is some kind of percentage of flawed cameras i call it a series issue.

personally i don´t say every 70D camera has this issue.
but i have seen the issue and i could reproduce it.

together with the reports on the internet i think there is truth in it.

especially concerning the amount of reports.
isn´t it strange that there are no other cameras who have this issue?

why does nobody has this very specific(!) issue switching from a 550D to a 60D or from a 60D to a 7D? what about the learning curve in these cases?

fact is you have done no testing yourself, right?
but you know from "past experience" and because "you have seen a lot" that it´s a user error.

from mirror problems to light leaks there have happend other things in the past people thought not be possible.

 

[lw]

when there is some kind of percentage of flawed cameras i call it a series issue.

And what is that percentage?

I reckon Canon have sold at least 10's of thousands of 70Ds. Probably 100's of thousands. Canon have sold in excess of 5 million DSLRs since the 70D was released. Even if the 70D was only 1% of that, it would be 50,000. But the 70D is a top seller according to places like Amazon and BCN, so it is going to be more.

Meanwhile, how many have faults? Well 10's possibly 100's have stated they have a fault in forums and elsewhere. i.e. a very tiny percentage. But as ever the silent majority who don't have faults don't post that fact.

It's a real bummer for people who have a problem with their camera, and Canon don't seem to be doing a good job of fixing it for them, or managing the situation.

But I find no evidence to suggest that a high percentage of 70Ds have this fault, and certainly no indication that it is some inherent design fault or firmware issue - otherwise everyone would be reporting it as we all have the same hardware and firmware.

I have tried every way I can to find this fault in my camera but it stubbornly refuses to mis-focus. What I did find though was that every one of my lenses required some MFA on the 70D.

If there is a fault it is in the assembly process that appears to allow the build of misaligned cameras or the calibration routines are at fault, and in the testing process for not spotting them before they leave the factory.

 

[Lightmaster]

And what is that percentage?

good question.

another good question.. how many 70D owner would not even notice it because they only have a kit lens and no fast lenses?

If there is a fault it is in the assembly process that appears to allow the build of misaligned cameras or the calibration routines are at fault, and in the testing process for not spotting them before they leave the factory.

what people don´t seem to understand is that this has NOTHING to do with tolerances or AFMA.

the lenses in combination with the 70D behave fine when the working apperture is set to say f2.8 or f4.
sure the amount of error should be smaller then (greater DOF) but still visible.

and it does not happen when you don´t use the center AF point.

the fact that it only happens at wide open apperture, that no amount of AFMA helps, only the center AF is affected.... is what makes this issue so special.

someone please tell me how this can be a user error when simply changing from the center AF to a different AF point solves it??

in bold because this is always ignored by those who categorical speak about "user errors".

 

[noncho]

I have 70D and yesterday I have encountered this problem with central focus point.

Sigma 18-35 1.8 lens:
Central point at 1.8, more than 50% miss
Other points at 1.8, less than 10% miss

I'm very disappointed.

How have you set the AF menu options up?

Which AF Point mode are you using?

And AI Servo? AI Focus? One Shot?

I ask because there's a recurring theme in these discussions of user error...

Here's the thing. All cameras AF (and meter) wide open: so if every single time anyone presses the shutter button your lens is wide open, how is this "problem" not manifesting at any aperture?

Yet the people who reckon they're victims seem pretty clear that it's "only" at maximum aperture as they've set it. How can that be?

It strongly suggests a flawed testing regime, the normal impact on DoF of shooting wide open, and unrealistic/uninformed expectations. I've seen no evidence to support any claims that there's a ubiquitous design/production flaw in the 70D.

Some obviously faulty individual cameras? Yep. Lots of user error? Yep. An inherent flaw in the camera. Nope...

I have checked few times - One shot focus, near and far distance. Liveview is fine, other focus points are fine, central focus point - crap.
And the DOF on crop 18 1.8 few meters away is not a hair.

Of course I will do more tests with other lenses, but for me this is strange issue, and I bought 70D to replace my 60D for better focus...

I'm CPS member and I'm awaiting their answer what are the possibilities.


P.S. Totally agree about the lack of fast lenses for most of the 70D owners, also many of them are probably using Auto AF, AF zones or Liveview.

 

[lw]

what people don´t seem to understand is that this has NOTHING to do with tolerances.

Others with the problem seem to suggest differently. e.g. http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17077451&postcount=1175 where he discusses the possible misalignment of AF elements.

the lenses in combination with the 70D behave fine when the working apperture is set to say f2.8 or f4.
sure the amount of error should be smaller then (greater DOF) but still visible.

and it does not happen when you don´t use the center AF point.

the fact that it only happens at wide open apperture, that no amount of AFMA helps, only the center AF is affected.... is what makes this issue so special.

But people with the same camera and lens combination, using it in the same way, don't have the problem. It is a fault with individual cameras, not every camera.

 

[noncho]

I've made some more tests with Canon 50 1.4 and Sigma 105 2.8 OS Macro.

With 50 1.4 - good on close distance, bad central focus point with distance more than about 3 meters.

Even with Sigma 105 the problem with central focus point is there at distance.

Here is an example with 50 1.4:
Central point:
http://www.nonchoiliev.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/50-1.4-central-point.jpg
Other point:
http://www.nonchoiliev.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/50-1.4-non-central-point.jpg

It's a huge difference, many of images taken at central point focus are not usable.

 

[noncho]

An update on this issue with my 70D.

Canon repaired the problem without saying what was wrong. I still have inconsistency sometimes when I shoot something with focus near to infinity (landscapes with different lenses).
I'm getting tired to use live view on every landscape photo. I'll probably end up with migration to Samsung/Olympus system next year...

 

[throwfirewoodatme]

Hello chaps. I can confirm this. I have owned two 70Ds. Brand new. I also have a 6D. My Sigma Art Series 50mm is perfectly sharp at the centre point from f1.4 all the way up on the 6D. On the 70D, both of them, focus is absolutely unreliable. Focus is confirmed, even on a tripod and I get different results. I used a Siemens Star to confirm and I tried micro adjustment. I can't find the centre point lens compatibility documentation other than in the manual where it says "highly accurate" I suspect this point is NOT accurate to below f2.

Sorry chaps. It is a problem. Whatever the cause.

Paul

 

[Ozarker]

I'm not good at English, i'm from Türkiye. Sorry if i said something wrong.

You spelled "Turkey" incorrectly.

It is shocking when someone cannot spell the name of their own country properly!!

You call "Turkey" we call "Türkiye" which is more true?

I am amazed that Americans think that they can rename cities and countries for other people. He has the spelling correct in Turkish. Americans call Firenze "Florence" and Padova "Padua." Of course, the people in Italy don't know the names of their own cities, Firenze and Padova.

Thank you for understanding.

Just ignore him. We are not all like that. I happen to love eating turkey, but would rather visit Türkiye given the choice. Good luck to you my friend.

 

[travisdeland]

There is quite a "buzz" on the net - claiming a focus problem with the 70d when using the view finder and center point for maximum accuracy. it seems there is a quirk which does not provide sharp focus.

Can anyone confirm or negate this ? If I cannot focus like my t2i with my fast glass - then the 70d is not for me?



I bought a 70D back in November 2014, and had AF problems-exchanged the camera and have been IMPRESSED ever since. Personally, I find the AF on the 70D outperforms the my disappointing 7D2.

 

[pvalpha]

I bought a 70D back in November 2014, and had AF problems-exchanged the camera and have been IMPRESSED ever since. Personally, I find the AF on the 70D outperforms the my disappointing 7D2.

As an owner of a 7DmII I can say without a doubt my first body was flawed on all my lenses. It hit focus... but the images were still "smeared" slightly, the best word I can come up with is "unsharp". When shooting the subjects I bought the body for - dogs and birds in motion... I didn't have a single good picture. No amount of microfocus adjustment or manual focus testing could find a "sweet" spot that would stick. Even things that looked like they were in focus, when you pixel-peeped, showed signs of "smearing" - especially on specular reflections/highlights from bumpy materials (wet dog's nose, for example, certain kinds of flowers/leaves). My 10D produced better quality pictures - even though it couldn't hope to match pixel count.

My second body is spot on perfect - with all my lenses. No Microfocus adjustments necessary. And the IQ is vastly superior, and my 10D really shows its age in comparison. As for *my* skills, those aren't perfect. But that can always improve.

I can't speak to the 70D's problems because I don't own one. But if people see similar problems with the focus on their images... Considering how close the sensors are in specification its possible that they share some assembly values and those assembly values would affect focus systems. If it were a design flaw for either camera the problem would be across the board and they would have likely delayed shipment because QC (no matter how sporadic) would have had to catch it. Since it isn't and since we're all finding samples of bodies that work excellently in the face of people who are experiencing problems it could be that one of Canon's plants has a QC issue that needs to be addressed.

Any company can have Quality Control issues. I only hold it against the company when they refuse to address them appropriately or take responsibility for their existence. So far Canon seems to be fixing those examples that have issues for the 7DmII, or people were like me and had the ability to exchange their body at the dealer for a new one that appears to be working flawlessly. So Canon still has my loyalty. YMMV.

 

[Greg B]

Hi All

I have registered to forum mainly to reply on this particular thread and share with you my experience about my 70d.

My previous camera was EOS 500d which I used with kit Lens 18-55mm , 1.4 50mm USM & 55-250mm IS. Due to accidental damage to 500d body I have decided to purchase a new Canon and I have chosen 70d.

I didn't hesitate much, I always had Canon cameras so didn't consider Nikon or any other brands. I haven't even read many reviews, just comparison to Nikon D7200. After all I wanted Canon anyway!

My wife found high street retailer , UK canon dealer who gave us extra £70 off from retail price plus Canon Cash back which resulted in final price of around £620. I am writing about it only to clarify that camera was from main dealer not Honk Kong or any other sources.

Brand new camera and my beloved 50mm 1.4 Canon lens. I was expecting my first photo to be really nice, or at least as good as normally was when I used 500d. It wasn't.
Fixed central focus point like always, camera set to automatic 'P' mode, not too dark kitchen and I tried to take a portrait of my son at least 10 times and his face was always a bit blurred. Camera was always focused on his eye. Randomly on some photos objects just next him were sharp, but none of the points on his face. It was unpleasant surprise but I wasn't worried yet. I got really worried when the same happen in few different scenarios, however all indoor, all at high aperture, using viewfinder and central focus point.


I googled a problem and found a lot about it in a fraction of second.

Next day after my purchase was Sunday so I couldn't go back to retailer who sold me a camera but I went to Jessops & John Lewis to play with other 70Ds. Similar impression.

Next Monday I went to Canon dealer and explained problem, they offered to swap my 70D body to another one which they expected to be delivered same week.

Due to my holiday leave I received new 70d few days after my visit. I have taken hundreds of photos, I have tried micro adjustment, still no luck.
Picture sharpness was so random at high aperture (1.4-2.0) that I have finally gave up and after 3 days of testing it I returned camera to dealer.

In all fairness camera worked brilliant with other slower lenses. It produced very nice and sharp pictures with 18-55mm & 55-250mm. They were mainly outdoor photos so hard to compare.

After this I am very disappointed with Canon but I am hoping that 80d will be released soon and will not inherit 70d focusing issues.

 

[Proscribo]

You had Canon's 50mm/1.4? Because I have that same lens (with 70D) and indeed, the results in 1.4-2.X are totally random - and that's because of the lens. I have done some small measurements and found out that I needed about +13 AFMA at closest focusing distances and +19 at longer distances, and it still wouldn't focus perfectly every time. Also that lens isn't really sharp at those widest apertures so it gets even more difficult to really get that as sharp as possible. HOWEVER: I'm not 100% sure whether there is something wrong with my 50mm lens?

I had these same problems with my 550D from day one and found out that I just had to live with it... MF or liveview focusing was the way to go if one required well focused shots. In low-light that misfocus wasn't that big of a problem since noise already mushed pics pretty much.

I just wish canon would release that new 50mm/1.4 already.. gosh. I also have EF-S17-55/2.8, Sigma 70-200/2.8, Sigma 105mm/2.8 and 100-400L I and the all focus really nicely at widest apertures (especially after small AFMA tuning). I also consider that 17-55mm to be much sharper and much, MUCH more accurate than the 50mm. It still amazes me how well it focuses and how sharp the images look even at 2.8 (at 4-5.6 it is simply astonishing).

 

[Greg B]

Hi Proscribo

Yes I have Canon EF 50mm 1:1.4 USM. Honestly it worked very well with my old 500d. I used it a lot indoor and never had such random results like with 70d.
I am not professional photographer and my hand is not perfectly steady, I am aware of it so used tripod or solid support at later stage of testing.

My best MF setting was 10+ but as you mentioned, it only worked in specific range (short distance in my case). Once I have realised it I gave up with MF adjustment because it is ridiculous to change MF value each time circumstances change!

 

[hmatthes]

Only have one lens faster than f/2.8. tested my 70D with all the 2.8 glass and found no difference between viewfinder AF and LCD AF -- but the one faster lens had a very slim difference -- had to "pixel peep" in order to detect it.
The micro adjust was easy. Problem solved.
I suspect any dual-pixel body might have this issue. Easy fix for each lens wider than 2.8

 

[Greg B]

I didn't really compare it to Live view. I don't use it, always shoot with view finder.

 

[beforeEos Camaras]

I didn't really compare it to Live view. I don't use it, always shoot with view finder.

hate to say it you have too. don't own a 50 1.4 but I do own a 501.8mk1 and the 85 1.8 canon lens find them razor sharp on portraits. focused on the eye wide open with a 70d with no micro adjustment needed these are my fastest lens. I also have a number of 2.8 lens that work fine less pixel peeping. btw I normal shoot ovf with the tilt screen facing in the back of the camera as it give me the feel of my old fd film backs with a few extras diles and buttons.