Canon back to the drawingboard or is there still hope?

[emko]

I wonder if Canon will be forced to update their cameras sooner... like the quick (2 year) update done to the Nikon D800 and D800E, as well as their D4 to D4s upgrade.
It has been nearly 3.5 years since the 5D mark III was launched and we still don't have a 5D mark IV announcement.

Canon is going to have a hard time competing with fresh products that keep rolling out from Nikon and Sony if they don't change to a ~2 year release cycle OR release a killer camera that is ahead enough to last that long.

You know that the D800/E has had quite some issues (AF issues, pentaprism issues, broken external shutter control sockets inside the body, the green tinted screen etc...) Read here: http://www.martinzimelka.com/pages/D800_8.html , and that the D810 is mainly the bug fix version of the same camera? Same goes for the D4 and D4s ... of course they also included some other improvements with software and some other parts of cameras hardware to improve IQ and DR a bit ...

As my 5d MK III after over 125.000 pics still works fine and I got about the first one on the first day my local dealer had I slightly disagree that canon is in need for such short upgrade circles ...

and btw. Canon released a killer camera for most professional users 4 years ago (1DX) which is together with the telephoto lenses still ahead of Nikon (Nikon will probably match Canons 2012 system (camera and lens) by the beginning of 2016, when their new 500 and 600mm lenses become available) I still have to see a pro sports photographer who regularly needs to push shadows for 5 stops ... same goes with most wildlife photographers ...

However it is to be said that Sony/Nikon is better with some aspects of their cameras which are mainly related to the sensor ... but the combination of 5DsR/1DX which most pros doing Landscape/ detailed big print work and fast action photography will soon have is not really behind much only more specialized to one or the other use ...

Same got 5D3 day one and then had to get the lightleak issue fixed by Canon adding some black tape WOW

 

[1982chris911]

I wonder if Canon will be forced to update their cameras sooner... like the quick (2 year) update done to the Nikon D800 and D800E, as well as their D4 to D4s upgrade.
It has been nearly 3.5 years since the 5D mark III was launched and we still don't have a 5D mark IV announcement.

Canon is going to have a hard time competing with fresh products that keep rolling out from Nikon and Sony if they don't change to a ~2 year release cycle OR release a killer camera that is ahead enough to last that long.

You know that the D800/E has had quite some issues (AF issues, pentaprism issues, broken external shutter control sockets inside the body, the green tinted screen etc...) Read here: http://www.martinzimelka.com/pages/D800_8.html , and that the D810 is mainly the bug fix version of the same camera? Same goes for the D4 and D4s ... of course they also included some other improvements with software and some other parts of cameras hardware to improve IQ and DR a bit ...

As my 5d MK III after over 125.000 pics still works fine and I got about the first one on the first day my local dealer had I slightly disagree that canon is in need for such short upgrade circles ...

and btw. Canon released a killer camera for most professional users 4 years ago (1DX) which is together with the telephoto lenses still ahead of Nikon (Nikon will probably match Canons 2012 system (camera and lens) by the beginning of 2016, when their new 500 and 600mm lenses become available) I still have to see a pro sports photographer who regularly needs to push shadows for 5 stops ... same goes with most wildlife photographers ...

However it is to be said that Sony/Nikon is better with some aspects of their cameras which are mainly related to the sensor ... but the combination of 5DsR/1DX which most pros doing Landscape/ detailed big print work and fast action photography will soon have is not really behind much only more specialized to one or the other use ...

Same got 5D3 day one and then had to get the lightleak issue fixed by Canon adding some black tape WOW

And we all know that this problem really only existed at 12PM in a dark coal cellar ... btw I did not have mine fixed till today (just too lazy) maybe out of boredom when my other body finally arrives I will finally do it (but I have no real reason for doing so bc. of actually seeing a problem somewhere in my pictures) ...

 

[Tinky]

And so it rumbles on....

Sorry for reviving an ancient debate, my point was merely that I agree the EF mount is pivotal to canons success...

I hate myself for doing this, but heres a scenario.


Uncle Bob buys a rebel. Quite likes it. His friends and family all tell him he's a natural. The guys in the shop all tell him how great his pictures are, and oh, do you not think your kit lens is starting to hold you back a wee bit?

Why not try the 60mm macro, also makes a great portrait lens? Really you need ring usm, really you need f2.8, we've got the EF-s 17-55 on offer just now, great cashback deal from canon? Check the reviews, virtually an L etc etc

So Uncle Bob has his rebel and a step up with his glass. He'd like EF lenses, but hey they are a lot more money for say a 16-35... and he's never going to be able to afford a 1Ds anyway, 5D anyway, 5D2 anyway... whats that you say? My lump sum at the same time as the 6D comes out...

Oh but I've a bag of EF-s lenses says Uncle Bob.

And Nikon have just brought out the D800...

Those extra 16MP are bound to bag me a camera club prize, and as I can't use my EF-s lenses anyway...


All of which is a long way of saying.. those are the tricks I used as a retailer. And Neuro has hit the nail on the head.

Nikon users meanwhile get a soft transition rather than having to buy all new kit at once...

Okay the crop is hefty, but if you are only posting to flickr? And lets not forget how big a 6MP print can be on your living room wall...

I have no data whatsoever... but I think if Canon had given x0D/Rebel users a soft transition to full frame it would have been better for everybody, including Canon.

But it didn't happen that way. And you all obviously disagree. So Phucket. Lets move on.

 

[Sporgon]

And so it rumbles on....

Sorry for reviving an ancient debate, my point was merely that I agree the EF mount is pivotal to canons success...

I hate myself for doing this, but heres a scenario.


Uncle Bob buys a rebel. Quite likes it. His friends and family all tell him he's a natural. The guys in the shop all tell him how great his pictures are, and oh, do you not think your kit lens is starting to hold you back a wee bit?

Why not try the 60mm macro, also makes a great portrait lens? Really you need ring usm, really you need f2.8, we've got the EF-s 17-55 on offer just now, great cashback deal from canon? Check the reviews, virtually an L etc etc

So Uncle Bob has his rebel and a step up with his glass. He'd like EF lenses, but hey they are a lot more money for say a 16-35... and he's never going to be able to afford a 1Ds anyway, 5D anyway, 5D2 anyway... whats that you say? My lump sum at the same time as the 6D comes out...

Oh but I've a bag of EF-s lenses says Uncle Bob.

And Nikon have just brought out the D800...

Those extra 16MP are bound to bag me a camera club prize, and as I can't use my EF-s lenses anyway...


All of which is a long way of saying.. those are the tricks I used as a retailer. And Neuro has hit the nail on the head.

Nikon users meanwhile get a soft transition rather than having to buy all new kit at once...

Okay the crop is hefty, but if you are only posting to flickr? And lets not forget how big a 6MP print can be on your living room wall...

I have no data whatsoever... but I think if Canon had given x0D/Rebel users a soft transition to full frame it would have been better for everybody, including Canon.

But it didn't happen that way. And you all obviously disagree. So Phucket. Lets move on.

I think you're over analysing it, perhaps not in the last sentence.

This whole 'FF is the holy grail' thing is only applicable to a small minority when looking at all 'serious' camera sales. Offering dedicated lenses for the smaller image circle of APS was the right way to go IMO, and looking at the price and quality they can achieve now it makes me wonder why I'm not using crop.

 

[1982chris911]

And so it rumbles on....

Sorry for reviving an ancient debate, my point was merely that I agree the EF mount is pivotal to canons success...

I hate myself for doing this, but heres a scenario.


Uncle Bob buys a rebel. Quite likes it. His friends and family all tell him he's a natural. The guys in the shop all tell him how great his pictures are, and oh, do you not think your kit lens is starting to hold you back a wee bit?

Why not try the 60mm macro, also makes a great portrait lens? Really you need ring usm, really you need f2.8, we've got the EF-s 17-55 on offer just now, great cashback deal from canon? Check the reviews, virtually an L etc etc

So Uncle Bob has his rebel and a step up with his glass. He'd like EF lenses, but hey they are a lot more money for say a 16-35... and he's never going to be able to afford a 1Ds anyway, 5D anyway, 5D2 anyway... whats that you say? My lump sum at the same time as the 6D comes out...

Oh but I've a bag of EF-s lenses says Uncle Bob.

And Nikon have just brought out the D800...

Those extra 16MP are bound to bag me a camera club prize, and as I can't use my EF-s lenses anyway...


All of which is a long way of saying.. those are the tricks I used as a retailer. And Neuro has hit the nail on the head.

Nikon users meanwhile get a soft transition rather than having to buy all new kit at once...

Okay the crop is hefty, but if you are only posting to flickr? And lets not forget how big a 6MP print can be on your living room wall...

I have no data whatsoever... but I think if Canon had given x0D/Rebel users a soft transition to full frame it would have been better for everybody, including Canon.

But it didn't happen that way. And you all obviously disagree. So Phucket. Lets move on.

Just why would uncle bob buy a Canon Rebel if he is a Nikon shooter ??? or Penatx or Sony or Panasonic ??? This is screwed: if he likes Canon it needs a lot to get him away from Canon and most ppl. don't buy into FF systems bc. they want to shoot DX lenses in crop mode ...

 

[Tinky]

I worked in camera retail from the late 90s to the mid 2000s.

Right on the transition.

Brand loyalty didn't really come into it.

Most folk of ordinary means bought a compact. Were quite impressed. When the Rebel came out they bought that. A lot of pentax and minolta users delayed then betrayed their brand loyalty because these companies weren't coming up with the goods, or were far behind the curve when they did. The first pentax dslrs ran on AAs...

And there were no panasonic users in the DSLR market back then..


Anyway.

 

[1982chris911]

And so it rumbles on....

Sorry for reviving an ancient debate, my point was merely that I agree the EF mount is pivotal to canons success...

I hate myself for doing this, but heres a scenario.


Uncle Bob buys a rebel. Quite likes it. His friends and family all tell him he's a natural. The guys in the shop all tell him how great his pictures are, and oh, do you not think your kit lens is starting to hold you back a wee bit?

Why not try the 60mm macro, also makes a great portrait lens? Really you need ring usm, really you need f2.8, we've got the EF-s 17-55 on offer just now, great cashback deal from canon? Check the reviews, virtually an L etc etc

So Uncle Bob has his rebel and a step up with his glass. He'd like EF lenses, but hey they are a lot more money for say a 16-35... and he's never going to be able to afford a 1Ds anyway, 5D anyway, 5D2 anyway... whats that you say? My lump sum at the same time as the 6D comes out...

Oh but I've a bag of EF-s lenses says Uncle Bob.

And Nikon have just brought out the D800...

Those extra 16MP are bound to bag me a camera club prize, and as I can't use my EF-s lenses anyway...


All of which is a long way of saying.. those are the tricks I used as a retailer. And Neuro has hit the nail on the head.

Nikon users meanwhile get a soft transition rather than having to buy all new kit at once...

Okay the crop is hefty, but if you are only posting to flickr? And lets not forget how big a 6MP print can be on your living room wall...

I have no data whatsoever... but I think if Canon had given x0D/Rebel users a soft transition to full frame it would have been better for everybody, including Canon.

But it didn't happen that way. And you all obviously disagree. So Phucket. Lets move on.

I think you're over analysing it, perhaps not in the last sentence.

This whole 'FF is the holy grail' thing is only applicable to a small minority when looking at all 'serious' camera sales. Offering dedicated lenses for the smaller image circle of APS was the right way to go IMO, and looking at the price and quality they can achieve now it makes me wonder why I'm not using crop.

FF is a lot of trouble for most casual camera users actually ... I only say weight/size ... M4/3 systems are imo the best for ppl. who want a bit more but not all the package of a nikon/canon/sony FF ... and there are some pretty good lenses too ... up to quality Leica glass ... just look at the little Panasonic 7-14mm lens - actually that thing looked way better than anything what canon could do 3 years ago ...

 

[RobertP]

Why I won't be buying a Sony A7RII -

There isn't a native mount lens that I want at a price I'm willing to pay.
I can use Canon lenses but I have to spend more and add more weight by buying an adapter.
The focusing with a Canon lens is nearly as fast as a 6D or a 1DX but we haven't been told which.
I don't need IBIS for tripod mounted work.
I want a body that copes with 99% of my shooting wants so it will have to be good at wildlife and birds with a 100-400 lens and reasonable with an added teleconverter.

I could see me buying a Nikon but I won't be going over to Sony. The A7RII has nice marketing features but lacks a supporting system. All Canon needs to do is release a body with improved DR and that may be in development.

http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/04/eos-5d-mark-iv-to-use-eos-c300-mark-ii-technology-cr2/

 

[danski0224]

Count me in with the folks that wonder why Canon designed the EF-S lenses in such a way that they are incompatible with the EF mount.

Yes, I get that the image circle is smaller.

Like Nikon, a crop mode could have been put into the EF camera firmware. The gradual transition that others have mentioned.

The incompatibility may also hinder sales of Canon EF-S lenses. Outside of the 60mm macro, I didn't buy any other EF-S Canon lenses. It is strange how Canon chooses not to exploit the supposed advantage of the EF-S lenses and make a few "L worthy" standouts besides the 3 or 4 that are currently well regarded.

Some of the 3rd party APS-C lenses for Canon cameras do fit and work on an EF mount camera just fine.

 

[Rocky]

Count me in with the folks that wonder why Canon designed the EF-S lenses in such a way that they are incompatible with the EF mount.

Yes, I get that the image circle is smaller.

Like Nikon, a crop mode could have been put into the EF camera firmware. The gradual transition that others have mentioned.

The incompatibility may also hinder sales of Canon EF-S lenses. Outside of the 60mm macro, I didn't buy any other EF-S Canon lenses. It is strange how Canon chooses not to exploit the supposed advantage of the EF-S lenses and make a few "L worthy" standouts besides the 3 or 4 that are currently well regarded.

Some of the 3rd party APS-C lenses for Canon cameras do fit and work on an EF mount camera just fine.

EF-S lens is taking advantage of the smaller mirror and can use a shorter distance between the back of the lens and the sensor( especially for the wide angle zoom). If the EF-S lens is mounted on the FF body. It will damage the mirror.

 

[1982chris911]

Count me in with the folks that wonder why Canon designed the EF-S lenses in such a way that they are incompatible with the EF mount.

Yes, I get that the image circle is smaller.

Like Nikon, a crop mode could have been put into the EF camera firmware. The gradual transition that others have mentioned.

The incompatibility may also hinder sales of Canon EF-S lenses. Outside of the 60mm macro, I didn't buy any other EF-S Canon lenses. It is strange how Canon chooses not to exploit the supposed advantage of the EF-S lenses and make a few "L worthy" standouts besides the 3 or 4 that are currently well regarded.

Some of the 3rd party APS-C lenses for Canon cameras do fit and work on an EF mount camera just fine.

I read somewhere, sometime ago that the current Nikon mount makes it impossible to design lenses beyond f1,4 (that being the actual reason why Nikon does not have such offering at 50 or 85mm and why also Zeiss is limited at 1,4f if it wants to remain compatible with both looks at the Otus being f1.4 ).

Further than that you must remember that EFs mount was made when Canon FF DSLR (5D1 and 1DII) had about 12-15MP, now a crop on this would really not be too nice detail wise ... Maybe Canon just wanted its then users to shot nice pictures and not something weird bc. technical it can be done, but makes no sense in IQ ...

Nikon's transition to high resolution FF was faster than Canons so their crop mode makes a bit of sense - with Canon it does not make any sense IQ wise before the 5DsR ...

 

[Sporgon]

I read somewhere, sometime ago that the current Nikon mount makes it impossible to design lenses beyond f1,4 (that being the actual reason why Nikon does not have such offering at 50 or 85mm and why also Zeiss is limited at 1,4f if it wants to remain compatible with both looks at the Otus being f1.4 ).

Another internet myth.

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/1435/NIKKOR-50mm-f%252F1.2.html

 

[1982chris911]

I read somewhere, sometime ago that the current Nikon mount makes it impossible to design lenses beyond f1,4 (that being the actual reason why Nikon does not have such offering at 50 or 85mm and why also Zeiss is limited at 1,4f if it wants to remain compatible with both looks at the Otus being f1.4 ).

Another internet myth.

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/1435/NIKKOR-50mm-f%252F1.2.html

Hardly a current design: Designed in 1981 this MF lens is mainly for Film cameras ... Nikon seems to be really innovative with its f1,2 line ;-) Maybe I should add "current" to what I wrote above as there is no current lens that works anymore ...

 

[1982chris911]

If it would be easy today I really think Nikon would have designed such lenses for use in Fashion/Portrait photography ... Canon did 4 already in the current EF mount : 50mm f1 50mm f1,2 85mm f1,2 85mm f1,2 II

 

[Sporgon]

I read somewhere, sometime ago that the current Nikon mount makes it impossible to design lenses beyond f1,4 (that being the actual reason why Nikon does not have such offering at 50 or 85mm and why also Zeiss is limited at 1,4f if it wants to remain compatible with both looks at the Otus being f1.4 ).

Another internet myth.

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/1435/NIKKOR-50mm-f%252F1.2.html

Hardly a current design: Designed in 1981 this MF lens is mainly for Film cameras ... Nikon seems to be really innovative with its f1,2 line ;-) Maybe I should add "current" to what I wrote above as there is no current lens that works anymore ...

True, but it suggests the mount diameter isn't the limiting factor. Also bear in mind that even on the EF mount, for digital Canon 'fix' the data to accommodate f/1.2 exposure, much more so on the 5DII than the original 5D. I dread to think what it's doing with the 5Ds.

 

[Sporgon]

If it would be easy today I really think Nikon would have designed such lenses for use in Fashion/Portrait photography ... Canon did 4 already in the current EF mount : 50mm f1 50mm f1,2 85mm f1,2 85mm f1,2 II

Not necessarily. In cameras Nikon and Canon are under different pressures. Cameras are part of Canon whereas Nikon is part of Mitsubishi. Given the pressure on Nikon to perform for Mitsubishi I imagine they feel the return in f1.2 lenses isn't worth the development and manufacturing cost, so they are leaving Canon alone on that one. Similar situation with the 7DII too. It's this difference why (IMO) Nikon cameras are getting cheaper (in quality) when compared with Canon - Nikon are probably under more pressure to make more margin per unit.

 

[1982chris911]

If it would be easy today I really think Nikon would have designed such lenses for use in Fashion/Portrait photography ... Canon did 4 already in the current EF mount : 50mm f1 50mm f1,2 85mm f1,2 85mm f1,2 II

Not necessarily. In cameras Nikon and Canon are under different pressures. Cameras are part of Canon whereas Nikon is part of Mitsubishi. Given the pressure on Nikon to perform for Mitsubishi I imagine they feel the return in f1.2 lenses isn't worth the development and manufacturing cost, so they are leaving Canon alone on that one. Similar situation with the 7DII too. It's this difference why (IMO) Nikon cameras are getting cheaper (in quality) when compared with Canon - Nikon are probably under more pressure to make more margin per unit.

not sure if a lens design really makes much difference if specifications are known and you don't have to reinvent the wheel ... I mean you really think to design a f1,2 is so much different cost wise from a zoom or telephoto ... after all the 1,2f they could sell for considerably more than their current product: 50mmf1,2 - 1750 USD ; 85mm f1,2 2250 USD ...

I also think the f1,2 lenses are show off lenses ... the pictures captured with these are very much in the public eye (fashion magazines, heads of state and international stars, playboy... etc) so they brand advertisement ... that's why Canon put a lot into the 50 f1,0 & 85mm f1,2 to capture the fashion market back in the days... as they did with the big whites for sports ...

 

[danski0224]

EF-S lens is taking advantage of the smaller mirror and can use a shorter distance between the back of the lens and the sensor( especially for the wide angle zoom). If the EF-S lens is mounted on the FF body. It will damage the mirror.

Some of the EF-S lenses will physically attach to a EF mount with a little modification. Not all of them work or work at all focus ranges due to interference. Many of the 3rd party EF-S (or "crop") lenses will work just fine on a FF camera without issue.

Canon should make a few standout L designated lenses for the EF-S lineup and take advantage of the supposed "cost savings". Otherwise, it is hard to come up with a reason besides making the user buy more lenses.

Further than that you must remember that EFs mount was made when Canon FF DSLR (5D1 and 1DII) had about 12-15MP, now a crop on this would really not be too nice detail wise ... Maybe Canon just wanted its then users to shot nice pictures and not something weird bc. technical it can be done, but makes no sense in IQ ...

It isn't simply about the MP count.

Have you used a 4.2mp Canon 1D? That camera puts out some impressive files, even today. Sure, you can't crop away 80% of the image, but if the capture fills the frame and is taken within the standard ISO range of the camera, it is still quite good.

 

[Sporgon]

If it would be easy today I really think Nikon would have designed such lenses for use in Fashion/Portrait photography ... Canon did 4 already in the current EF mount : 50mm f1 50mm f1,2 85mm f1,2 85mm f1,2 II

Not necessarily. In cameras Nikon and Canon are under different pressures. Cameras are part of Canon whereas Nikon is part of Mitsubishi. Given the pressure on Nikon to perform for Mitsubishi I imagine they feel the return in f1.2 lenses isn't worth the development and manufacturing cost, so they are leaving Canon alone on that one. Similar situation with the 7DII too. It's this difference why (IMO) Nikon cameras are getting cheaper (in quality) when compared with Canon - Nikon are probably under more pressure to make more margin per unit.

not sure if a lens design really makes much difference if specifications are known and you don't have to reinvent the wheel ... I mean you really think to design a f1,2 is so much different cost wise from a zoom or telephoto ... after all the 1,2f they could sell for considerably more than their current product: 50mmf1,2 - 1750 USD ; 85mm f1,2 2250 USD ...

I also think the f1,2 lenses are show off lenses ... the pictures captured with these are very much in the public eye (fashion magazines, heads of state and international stars, playboy... etc) so they brand advertisement ... that's why Canon put a lot into the 50 f1,0 & 85mm f1,2 to capture the fashion market back in the days... as they did with the big whites for sports ...

We're talking opinions here, but bear in mind Nikon would have to produce a lens which competed with Canon's 1.2, and it would be expensive to produce relative to what they would be able to sell it for. Also I think it is an exaggeration to say Canon took the fashion world by storm with the fast 50s and 85s. Judging by the involvement I've had in this area I'd say lenses like the 300 f2.8 were the favoured optic where possible. It would be interesting to know how many units Canon sells in the f/1.2 range. I would image it is minute compared with overall sales. Also I don't think it was the optics that resulted in Canon jumping ahead in sports; more like the AF.

Anyway, it's only opinion.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Another internet myth.

We've had our share of those lately.