Canon EOS 3D at 46.1mp Next Month? [CR1]

[Meh]

I can't imagine any landscape photographer would want a 46.1Mp tool with diffraction limit starting at f/5.6 already.

"starting at" is the key... AFAIK other than very large prints it may not really start to be visible until much smaller apertures. Neuro or Jrista can tell us more I'm sure. But fair point, for serious landscape medium format would still be leaps and bounds ahead.

Here to save the day!! ;P

Knew you could!

I think what happens is that when us science guys (I only loosely, very loosely, include myself in that category) make statements such as "diffraction limits" and "diffraction starts to affect image quality" we mean that on a calculated basis where there is a measurable affects (e.g. where the tail of the Airy disk from one pixel is at least 5% of the intensity of the adjacent pixel or something thing like that) but the non-science folks (i.e. normal and socially tolerable people ;D) think we mean that it starts to become noticeable and visually affects image quality. And they might think it means that beyond the stated limit IQ drops off a cliff. We need to do a better job explaining these things.

Thanks to Jrista and Neuro for always providing the technical voices of reason and truth!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

One bad thing about 46MP is more than 5fps seems VERY unlikely. 38MP would be plenty enough and if it could do 5fps at 46MP it could do 6fps at 38MP. In all honesty, noticing 38MP vs 46MP is a LOT tougher than noticing 5fps vs 6fps. OK sure they can brag it's a fully 10MP above the D800, but making it speedy enough for action/wildlife (which the 38MP reach would help with too) would make FAR more practical sense to me. Sure some pure studio and landscape would take the 46MP, but they'd be making it a lot less well-rounded, making it more specialized and likely higher cost, for, IMO, not THAT much practical benefit.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Does Canon even make a lens that can resolve 46MP?

This. I assume they will have to replace 85/1.2, 50/1.2, 35/1.4 and 24/1.4 (the latter not likely anytime soon ofc).

Wow, I didn't know that all of those lenses are outresolved by the 7D. :

I didn't realize all of those were unusable on the 7D :

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

It's been a while since I saw a CR3 rating at a rumor and this is no different...
Yeah, a big MP camera is coming soon... It doesn't take a genius to predict that!

;D

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Why? All they will do is firmware upgrade the 1dx and it will be 46 mp. lol Now they can use the 1dx for 1dc and 3dx.

;D

(and guess what, the 5D4, will be an unlocked 5D3 )

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Short-body. Canon have only ever used tall-bodies for 1D-series for PRO's to accommodate larger battery pack + additional buttons for vertical shooting. The 3D will be first and foremost a Landscape/Studio camera

Hmmm, "...first and foremost a Landscape/Studio camera." That sounds a lot like how Canon has described the 1Ds line. After all, 's' = 'studio', right?

Still, unless this is called a 1D Xs, I expect anything other than a 1-series will not have an integrated grip.

This might be partially my own wishful thinking. But if this is going to be a splash (as described in the original article), then I think (and hope) it's a proper 1Ds replacement. It could be a new format sensor. Perhaps that 30x45 size or something encroaching on medium format.

Personally, I think there are enough sub-1DX full frame cameras in the lineup already (5D3, 5D2, 6D). If Canon is going to innovate and "make a splash" I expect a 1Ds replacement...which means it'll be somewhere around $10k.

I'm surprised there's no mention of the 1Dc, how much was that "firmware upgrade from 1Dx" going for again?
As with 4K being a "special feature" what's stopping Canon from labeling the super resolution as a special feature that excludes itself from all others, and thus deserving of an insane price tag?
Then again rumours are rumours, this beast is either pro level, or in the spirit of the original 5D, a large mp FF sensor in a not-so-special-at-all body?

part of me think the 36MP with amazing DR will have to keep the 46MP Canon price in check, WAYYYY in check unless the new Canon also has top DR ;D

but part of me thinks Canon went 46MP 5fps instead of a more all-around useful 38MP 6fps (also with more perfect video reads) because they are oooooo it's a full TEN more MP than the D800 now we can charge whatever, maybe even $7000, maybe even $9000 and will give us a less all-around camera and go MP crazy and dump a higher price and also think they don't need to match DR just because it has 10 more MP now :'(


Instead of focusing on what would make it a more all-around camera, part of the desire for MP is for more reach and when you want reach you often times would want better body response and more fps, once you are to 6fps you can at least live withit, even it it is not ideal. So giving it just a few less MP, which will be harder to spot anyway for landscape prints than frames an extra 1 fps apart difference and crop modes instead of silly sRAW/mRAW would make it a really cool all around camera instead of a specialized studio/landscape cam (at a perhaps higher price and lower sales).

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I can't imagine any landscape photographer would want a 46.1Mp tool with diffraction limit starting at f/5.6 already.

"starting at" is the key... AFAIK other than very large prints it may not really start to be visible until much smaller apertures. Neuro or Jrista can tell us more I'm sure. But fair point, for serious landscape medium format would still be leaps and bounds ahead.

quick test:
does your 7D set to f/8 capture more detail than your 20D (or 5D2/5D3 center APS-C crop) set to f/5.6?
There is a good answer.

 

[GuyF]

So Canon and Nikon are developing almost the same products together.

Yes. It's a phantom company call Cankon

Cankon is a dumb name for a joint venture. Surely they'd take the first part of Nikon and the second part of Canon and call the company Nik.... oh, bugger.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I think what happens is that when us science guys (I only loosely, very loosely, include myself in that category) make statements such as "diffraction limits" and "diffraction starts to affect image quality" we mean that on a calculated basis where there is a measurable affects (e.g. where the tail of the Airy disk from one pixel is at least 5% of the intensity of the adjacent pixel or something thing like that) but the non-science folks (i.e. normal and socially tolerable people ;D) think we mean that it starts to become noticeable and visually affects image quality. And they might think it means that beyond the stated limit IQ drops off a cliff. We need to do a better job explaining these things.

good points

all too many do seem to take it as a hard limit and some even take it to mean that the higher density camera will even do not just instantly no better, but actually worse, once past the limit

 

[V8Beast]

Hell yeah, 46 mp baby. Now I can crop the $hit out of my images instead of properly composing my shots or buying the appropriate glass.

 

[V8Beast]

If Canon releases such a high MP camera, then price will be one of the major factors accountable for its success. It does not look like an "upgrade" cam for 5DMKIII as it will appeal to a limited market (landscapes and studio shooters), so it will not be in any real direct competition with 5DMKIII.

Wait a second. I thought studio and landscape shooters represent the majority of the market, at least according to all the whiners on Canon Rumors

 

[psolberg]

I don't know if this month but this is coming no matter what. And expect even HIGHER resolution 50+ from Nikon/sony to follow. And to all those people what were complaining that 36MP is too much, yada yada, are going to be the FIRST to jump on this because ultimately it was never about the megapixels as much as it was the fact canon dropped the ball

 

[jrista]

One bad thing about 46MP is more than 5fps seems VERY unlikely. 38MP would be plenty enough and if it could do 5fps at 46MP it could do 6fps at 38MP. In all honesty, noticing 38MP vs 46MP is a LOT tougher than noticing 5fps vs 6fps. OK sure they can brag it's a fully 10MP above the D800, but making it speedy enough for action/wildlife (which the 38MP reach would help with too) would make FAR more practical sense to me. Sure some pure studio and landscape would take the 46MP, but they'd be making it a lot less well-rounded, making it more specialized and likely higher cost, for, IMO, not THAT much practical benefit.

There was also the mention (rumor) that it would be fully 16-bit. At a full 16-bits, 5fps @ 46.1mp is actually pretty impressive. Canon did release that 120mp APS-H sensor prototype a couple years ago, which had a reasonable readout rate. I can't say for sure, but if Canon is using some kind of hyperparallel readout like Sony, we should be able to get decent readout rates at high MP in the future. Whether we'll be able to get 10-12fps is anyone's guess, but 6..7...maybe even 8fps in the future?

 

[jrista]

So Canon and Nikon are developing almost the same products together.

Yes. It's a phantom company call Cankon

Cankon is a dumb name for a joint venture. Surely they'd take the first part of Nikon and the second part of Canon and call the company Nik.... oh, bugger.

Hmm, I'd have figured on NiCan myself...but the day we see a joint venture by those two eternal rivals, hell will well and truly have frozen solid.

 

[Viggo]

"Canon-Canoff" I am still laughing so hard. Great stuff! ;D

 

[Razor2012]

So Canon and Nikon are developing almost the same products together.

Yes. It's a phantom company call Cankon

Cankon is a dumb name for a joint venture. Surely they'd take the first part of Nikon and the second part of Canon and call the company Nik.... oh, bugger.

What about NiCan or CaNik? ;D

 

[AmbientLight]

I believe the oldest variant is Canikon, isn't it?

 

[jrista]

Short-body. Canon have only ever used tall-bodies for 1D-series for PRO's to accommodate larger battery pack + additional buttons for vertical shooting. The 3D will be first and foremost a Landscape/Studio camera

Hmmm, "...first and foremost a Landscape/Studio camera." That sounds a lot like how Canon has described the 1Ds line. After all, 's' = 'studio', right?

Still, unless this is called a 1D Xs, I expect anything other than a 1-series will not have an integrated grip.

This might be partially my own wishful thinking. But if this is going to be a splash (as described in the original article), then I think (and hope) it's a proper 1Ds replacement. It could be a new format sensor. Perhaps that 30x45 size or something encroaching on medium format.

Personally, I think there are enough sub-1DX full frame cameras in the lineup already (5D3, 5D2, 6D). If Canon is going to innovate and "make a splash" I expect a 1Ds replacement...which means it'll be somewhere around $10k.

I'm surprised there's no mention of the 1Dc, how much was that "firmware upgrade from 1Dx" going for again?
As with 4K being a "special feature" what's stopping Canon from labeling the super resolution as a special feature that excludes itself from all others, and thus deserving of an insane price tag?
Then again rumours are rumours, this beast is either pro level, or in the spirit of the original 5D, a large mp FF sensor in a not-so-special-at-all body?

part of me think the 36MP with amazing DR will have to keep the 46MP Canon price in check, WAYYYY in check unless the new Canon also has top DR ;D

but part of me thinks Canon went 46MP 5fps instead of a more all-around useful 38MP 6fps (also with more perfect video reads) because they are oooooo it's a full TEN more MP than the D800 now we can charge whatever, maybe even $7000, maybe even $9000 and will give us a less all-around camera and go MP crazy and dump a higher price and also think they don't need to match DR just because it has 10 more MP now :'(


Instead of focusing on what would make it a more all-around camera, part of the desire for MP is for more reach and when you want reach you often times would want better body response and more fps, once you are to 6fps you can at least live withit, even it it is not ideal. So giving it just a few less MP, which will be harder to spot anyway for landscape prints than frames an extra 1 fps apart difference and crop modes instead of silly sRAW/mRAW would make it a really cool all around camera instead of a specialized studio/landscape cam (at a perhaps higher price and lower sales).

I am not sure any super high resolution camera is ever going to be an "all-rounder". The D800, even at a "low" 36mp, is really not a general purpose camera. It has its niche...effectively the same niche a Canon 46mp camera or a MFD camera has...studio and landscapes. I've never needed more than 1 frame per minute when doing landscape with any camera, so 5fps in a 46mp camera is pretty amazing to me.

As for DR. If we gather up all the rumors so far, this 46.1mp FF camera from Canon could potentially have a thermally cooled sensor for better low-ISO noise (better DR), PLUS full 16-bit per channel color. Even if the thermal cooling doesn't give Canon sensors as high a DR as SoNikon Exmor, thermal cooling combined with two additional bits should give them better overall DR (assuming Canon doesn't jack up ISO 100 read noise to 100e-!!! :''''( ). At worst, I'd expect them to have similar DR to the D800 with both improvements in place. The real question is whether thermal cooling and full 16-bit are simply wild rumor, or based on some kernel of truth somewhere.

 

[Marsu42]

$7000-$8000. Priced and marketed in parallel with the 1Dx as a flagship camera for the segment of users that complained about the 18mps of the 1Dx.

... exactly, recently there was a bootleg shot of a Canon slide with a space next to the 1dx, that's where the 3d will go.

If Nikon can sell the D800 where they are, Canon can sell this camera in the $4k-$5k range.

It's not about what Canon *could* do, but about what brings them their best revenue - and the specs of the 6d shows that Canon is pretty confident to get away with almost everything because people are only talking about switching to Nikon, not actually doing that.

But even if I repeat myself: People, stop buying the 5d3! Wait and save for the 6d or 3d! (then the price of the 5d3 will drop eventually and I can get one )

 

[Marsu42]

Even if the thermal cooling doesn't give Canon sensors as high a DR as SoNikon Exmor, thermal cooling combined with two additional bits should give them better overall DR (assuming Canon doesn't jack up ISO 100 read noise to 100e-!!! :''''( ).

Um, what's this thermal cooling supposed to be exactly? A fan on the side of the camera? Heat dissipation through a part of the camera that has a "never touch here" sticker on it?