Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

[Luds34]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

The 6D, by contrast, was eating into 5D sales. What Canon found was that there are a ton of photographers who care only about getting the best IQ available. If you don't do video or action photography, the new upgraded AF is irrelevant. But if you're getting the same or better IQ as the higher-end 5D, landscape, portrait, and many other photographers go with the compact cheaper camera.

I don't buy it. A prick (one whom happened to be a computer tech pioneer) once said, "if you don't cannibalize yourself someone else will."

If the 6D line truly was stealing sales away from the 5D line, than why did Canon add it in the first place? It's because Canon was missing a product in THEIR lineup that existed in their competitors. The 6D line doesn't exist to steal sales from the 5D, but to battle against Nikon and others.

 

[Luds34]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

Edit: ahsanford named a good list, but the 16-35mm 4.0L IS is the only one that would actually fit my personal hobby photograpphy budget I think. Maybe I'm just not as financially up to the task as most are though.

Haha, no you and I (and I expect many others) are in the same boat. $1k is about my limit for a single lens purchase.

 

[-pekr-]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

No, you don't have to. Processing your files optimally, is like applying your best tricks to get the facts hidden. If it worked out well, well then. But the purpose is very simple - take out of the camera shot, lift the shadows, see what the camera is capable of, as a measure to its sensor and related circuity performance.

if what you just proved is that the noise structure of the 6DII is easily fixable, surely DPreview should have mentioned that. But as a comparison to raw sensor performance, the comparison might be still valid.

 

[Aglet]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

No, you don't have to. Processing your files optimally, is like applying your best tricks to get the facts hidden. If it worked out well, well then. But the purpose is very simple - take out of the camera shot, lift the shadows, see what the camera is capable of, as a measure to its sensor and related circuity performance.

if what you just proved is that the noise structure of the 6DII is easily fixable, surely DPreview should have mentioned that. But as a comparison to raw sensor performance, the comparison might be still valid.

I'm still seeing the 6D2's noise forming vertical banding patterns even in lower to midtones.
That's worse than just plain shadow noise. The latter is more fixable.
Since there's no real loss of DR, just a bit of increased overall noise which can mask pattern noise, a workaround is to not turn the ISO dial on this thing down below 400 or 800 unless you're not likely to have to make any adjustments in post.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

No, you don't have to. Processing your files optimally, is like applying your best tricks to get the facts hidden. If it worked out well, well then. But the purpose is very simple - take out of the camera shot, lift the shadows, see what the camera is capable of, as a measure to its sensor and related circuity performance.

if what you just proved is that the noise structure of the 6DII is easily fixable, surely DPreview should have mentioned that. But as a comparison to raw sensor performance, the comparison might be still valid.

That is a fallacious assumption based on the premise that both cameras RAW files are essentially the same thing and the information within them is stored in a similar fashion.

An anology would be applying the same heat energy to a sealed pressure cooker and an open pan and trying to tell how much water is in them by the temperature rise. They are not comparable.

Nikon RAW files do not use a floating black point, Canon RAW files do, in these 'tests' you have to adjust the black point to not clip first, then you have a playing field closer to level.

 

[-pekr-]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

You cannot apply the same 'standard' settings to different cameras and say look at the differences. You have to process each file optimally!

No, you don't have to. Processing your files optimally, is like applying your best tricks to get the facts hidden. If it worked out well, well then. But the purpose is very simple - take out of the camera shot, lift the shadows, see what the camera is capable of, as a measure to its sensor and related circuity performance.

if what you just proved is that the noise structure of the 6DII is easily fixable, surely DPreview should have mentioned that. But as a comparison to raw sensor performance, the comparison might be still valid.

That is a fallacious assumption based on the premise that both cameras RAW files are essentially the same thing and the information within them is stored in a similar fashion.

An anology would be applying the same heat energy to a sealed pressure cooker and an open pan and trying to tell how much water is in them by the temperature rise. They are not comparable.

Nikon RAW files do not use a floating black point, Canon RAW files do, in these 'tests' you have to adjust the black point to not clip first, then you have a playing field closer to level.

OK, you might have a point there. Did not think about the low level differences in the sensor technology (or more in a RAW files architeture) itself ...

 

[Zv]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

I'm not quite sure what to make of all this! I had hoped to one day upgrade to the 6DII but now I'm thinking I'm better off holding on to the 6D until it dies. Seems Canon have prioritized high ISO performance. Also the specs seems to dictate a camera made to shoot more action type situations than landscape. We have improved AF, better tracking, DPAF and a faster burst rate that's quite decent. All adds up to it being used for events IMO rather than static landscape stuff. Maybe there's more money in events? But then why the lack of decent video features?

Puzzling to say the least. Even if the DR was the same as 6D that would be fair but worse? What the heck? I can't defend that.

Might ditch this upgrade and see about getting an M5 or M6 instead. The 6D should do fine for at least another 5 years.

 

[pinoyplaya4life]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

Well... I'm glad I got the 5D4 for roughly the same price as a new 6D2 brand new

 

[-pekr-]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

Well... I'm glad I got the 5D4 for roughly the same price as a new 6D2 brand new

A used one, right? Or a grey market?

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

Now ends the debate over DR measured on preproduction bodies vs production bodies. All hope is gone. Let the lamintation begin.

Although I don't expect the info to change, we do not know where the info came from, but it likely did not come from a production camera, since they are not yet available. Its likely that the origin of the data comes from the same photos that others are reporting, so the results are going to be the same. Various sites pick up the info and republish it as though it was theirs, at Least DPR tells us who made the calculations, but we do not know who/ where / when the images were captured used in the Analysis, much less the status of the camera. Many of his observations are also made using DXO data, and that is always in question.

 

[SecureGSM]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

correction: retail units are available in Australia., People do get deliveries and one of those lucky owners shared some RAW images straight out of his brand new 6D II. results were as expected, no surprise there.

 

[Ladislav]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

It is an odd decision to take two steps forward with the other bodies and 3 back with the base ISO DR of the 6DMKII.

Corrected above.

Tom, I always respect your posts, but that's glossing over the bigger picture quite a bit.

Canon brought a ton of much-needed love to the brand -- AF overhaul + DPAF + tilty-flippy + touchscreen + communications + 6.5 fps -- but apparently left the car in neutral on something we all expected would happen.

I would say on aggregate the 6D2 met reasonable expectations spec/feature-wise minus the odd surprise. It will be a fine rig and it will sell well.

- A

Lets be fair. Digital camera is about taking pictures and for that sensor is number one feature. Releasing new camera with sensor which has worse DR than previous model and just a very slightly better high iso is not just odd surprise.

It is still not bad camera. DR is same as 5D Mk.III and people were taking awesome pictures with that one! But of course people expect more from camera released 5 years after the previous one.

Since sensor performance is very similar to 5D Mk. III, I can imagine many photographers upgrading to used 5D instead of new 6D Mk.II.

I was first disappointed with AF spread but after doing more research, I found it kind of expected and still considered 6D Mk. II to be my next camera. That has now definitely changed.

 

[tomscott]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

It is an odd decision to take two steps forward with the other bodies and 3 back with the base ISO DR of the 6DMKII.

Corrected above.

Tom, I always respect your posts, but that's glossing over the bigger picture quite a bit.

Canon brought a ton of much-needed love to the brand -- AF overhaul + DPAF + tilty-flippy + touchscreen + communications + 6.5 fps -- but apparently left the car in neutral on something we all expected would happen.

I would say on aggregate the 6D2 met reasonable expectations spec/feature-wise minus the odd surprise. It will be a fine rig and it will sell well.

- A

Lets be fair. Digital camera is about taking pictures and for that sensor is number one feature. Releasing new camera with sensor which has worse DR than previous model and just a very slightly better high iso is not just odd surprise.

It is still not bad camera. DR is same as 5D Mk.III and people were taking awesome pictures with that one! But of course people expect more from camera released 5 years after the previous one.

Since sensor performance is very similar to 5D Mk. III, I can imagine many photographers upgrading to used 5D instead of new 6D Mk.II.

I was first disappointed with AF spread but after doing more research, I found it kind of expected and still considered 6D Mk. II to be my next camera. That has now definitely changed.

Completely agree the 5DMKIII is a better camera for the £.

The camera does feel its age tho the small additions like the viewfinder II, tilt screen, wifi etc etc really make the experience of day to day shooting.

One thing to bare in mind with the 5D and 1D series is that most have been properly used are usually used hard.

Mine was well used, it was used professionally and was not a museum piece. It shot motorsport events in yellow weather warnings in rain for 6-8 hours on a regular basis here in the UK. On one occasion the camera just had enough and failed after about 6 hours, first the shutter button then total unit failure. Obviously you do your best not to get the gear wet but in torrential rain like that its very difficult, these are expensive you you dont want to ruin it for the sake of it. Wrapped it in a towel and left over night and booted up fine the next day.

Although I hate to think what it was like inside.

It went to some of the most hostile places on Earth like the Amazon, Atacama desert, 4500 miles across Africa including rain forests of Uganda the Namibian desert... to name a few etc etc

I did try to keep it in a decent condition but daily use and thousands of shots make it difficult and I wasn't that bothered prefer a camera that looks used. Deters thieves etc but then again mine was stolen not long ago... so it obviously doest make much difference. Thankfully it was nearly through its second shutter and not really worth a lot maybe £650-700 to trade in.

I could have kept the body in immaculate condition and thats something that you have to bare in mind when buying used, it may look fantastic but you cant see whats going on the inside. Used out in heavy rain the damage may not be bad enough for the unit to fail but corrosion happens over time and high shutter count (80-90k+) 5DMKIII in the UK goes for roughly £1400. Having it repaired could be expensive.

Also the 5DMKIIIs shutter are meant to last 150k shots. In my experience this is a bit of an overstatement. My first one went at 86k and the second one went at around 115k. A new shutter and service isnt cheap either so you have to bare it in mind when buying used.

For many a new product with a 2 year warranty is worth the increased cost. Because you never know.

I would probably only buy one if it was bought from an amateur that babied their investment. With the way I and other photographers use their gear to get the shot I dont think I would buy a pre owned body.

 

[SecureGSM]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

Tom, there are plenty of low shutter, mint 5D III bodies out there that people just bought because they wanted a "good reliable camera" that was recomended by that salesman in the camera store next door. People do have dollars to burn. A friend of mine received 5D III body for his 50th birthday from his wife and he is not really into photography.
There are cashed up retirees, hobists, etc., that can afford expensive camera (toy). I hope it all makes sense.
your personal use case is a bit extreme, as you would agree. there are some very nice 5D III bodies out there.

 

[tomscott]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

To continue my argument from the previous thread 6DMKII DR thread.

The DR may not have improved but the quality of the files has vastly improved.

Sorry to again explain my main issues with the 5DMKIII but...

I found (not always) that I would run into problems with banding, colour noise and purple muddy shadows if I lifted more than a stop which in high contrast situations I would say is fairly common.

The colour noise was always my most hated issue with the previous tech, I would have the slider up to 35-40 on colour noise and the smoothness up to 75. Even at base ISO I had issues. The 3 issues were really a pain and would increase PP time significantly. Although not all the time but with dark wedding venues where you cant light the room, or in high contrast situations like wildlife in rain forests with dark shadows and beams of light through the canopy it was very hard to expose correctly and inevitably you would expose to protect either side.

Anyway as previously noted this image is a 200 ISO image so should be on the better side of the scale.

This was one of the first REAL raw files posted by an Australian guy on the DP forum and have now been deleted. I have posted this because its the first half decent contrast scene posted to test if you could push. Shot into the sun and a dark corner scene.

Here is a image that has been pushed 4 stops and has a 100% crop to show the quality. There is no NR or sharpening just the standard lightroom profile.

As you can see there are none of the above issues like the 5DMKIII which shows a considerable improvement. The difference between a keeper or a binner.

I appreciate it should recover well at 200 so there is also a 3200 ISO image too. 4 stops at 3200ISO and again no banding, colour noise or muddy purple casts. Ok it has noise but its a 3200 file pushed 4 stops its a silly push.

There is something going on here I haven't done anything but an exposure push and these real world images show a very different result to the ones posted by DP.

For all you who are on the fence and are disappointed. Its just one aspect and ok it may have the same DR but these files are miles more usable because they are so much cleaner. How often will you do a 4 stop push on a 3200ISO file. As you can see on both they are completely blown out. This is because they were exposed correctly. So I dont know how it would perform if you did shoot your lens cap and push it 4 stops ;D

But in real world useage with good exposure this IMO is a really great performer and its not showing the tell tale signs of the old cameras from these two examples.

This is why it makes me think that camera used for the DP samples is a pre production the files were taken on the 14th July. Adobe released its Camera Raw support on the 19th. Take that what you will.

I think its worth waiting for more images. Similar to the 5DSR that was slated to have poor DR and the out of camera JPGs were posted as the raw converter wasn't available and then pushed and still haven't been updated.

I assume to be the first to get data out. I dislike this and the first reviews stick with people.

You have to be objective for your usage, not just look at charts.

Again take from this what you will.

 

[tomscott]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

Tom, there are plenty of low shutter, mint 5D III bodies out there that people just bought because they wanted a "good reliable camera" that was recomended by that salesman in the camera store next door. People do have dollars to burn. A friend of mine received 5D III body for his 50th birthday from his wife and he is not really into photography.
There are cashed up retirees, hobists, etc., that can afford expensive camera (toy). I hope it all makes sense.
your personal use case is a bit extreme, as you would agree. there are some very nice 5D III bodies out there.

All im saying is you have to be careful and just buying a used 5DMKIII because they are weather proof and will last 150k doesnt mean they will depending on how they have been treated therefore for a lot of people buying a new camera that does 90% and has more features makes sense for a lot of people.

 

[Otara]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

Obviously for those who are worried, new has a warranty.

But with shutter counts and some knowledge, I dont think secondhand is quite as risky as you're suggesting. The large majority of DSLR's never come near to their service life.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

It's been quite clear that the 6D range is an attempt my Canon to depth charge the sale of S/H previous gen 5D cameras (Canon makes no money on S/H cams) by basically selling a slightly fresher / modded 5DII as a 6D and the same for the 5DIII / 6DII. It's a close call between a 6DII and a S/H 5DIII...but new and shiny...with a full warranty...is always king in my books. Which is probably Canon's intention.
So lets face it...when the 6DII starts to drop in price...the S/H value for a 5DIII will plummet too.

 

[Pippan]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

It's a close call between a 6DII and a S/H 5DIII...but new and shiny...with a full warranty...is always king in my books. Which is probably Canon's intention.
So lets face it...when the 6DII starts to drop in price...the S/H value for a 5DIII will plummet too.

Not only new and shiny and with a warranty and flippy touchscreen, the 6DII is 6 oz/172 g lighter, a not insignificant difference for some.

 

[Luds34]

Re: Canon EOS 6D Mark II Dynamic Range Talk & Sample Images

(Canon makes no money on S/H cams)

While that is the general sentiment on this forum that's not entirely true. While Canon does not directly make money on any 2nd hand sale, often folks who sell something used are doing so because they have purchased something new. So when you see a 2nd hand 5D3, there is a solid chance the seller may have purchased a 5D4 to replace it. Furthermore, that 2nd hand sale just might be bringing a new customer into the Canon system, which may lead to lens purchases, new bodies in the future.

Looking at a more macro level, all Canon purchases (lenses included), whether on primary or secondary markets are creating a market, and therefore overall demand for Canon products which drives their business.