Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]

[KeithR]

Canon really needs to work on low light...

Ho-hum...

My 7D at: 3200 ISO, 5000 ISO, 6400 ISO, 8500 ISO, 12800 ISO.

I can tell you on my 7D, if you push the shadows much at all, you have some serious issues

Yeah?

-3 EV pushed to +4 EV

Shadows and shadows recovered.

but I would love to see better looking shadows in any new sensor and better RAW noise performance because those are weak areas of the Canon.

Not a problem at all, with intelligent conversion and PP decisions...

 

[awinphoto]

70d would be getting the 100% VF, new AF system, same sensor (although one could hope they refined it to give better ISO, DR, etc), continuous AF, etc... a pretty decent upgrade... I just hope it returns to a mag alloy body. If so I may retire my 7d and pick this up as my backup body.

Unless your 7D is near death, you'd be retiring it for the exact same camera. Cause the "new" 70D is just the 7D with whatever this continuous auto-focus does.

If they did that, put MFA back in, they'd seriously have a contender, that's for sure.

Wouldn't surprise me if they left it out. Keep the 70D body similar, so its better than the Ti cameras, but not weather-sealed and full-pro style like the 7D, and leave out MFA to make people who want it buy the new 7D. Cause that's one feature they can easily differentiate that will get people to upgrade.

For me personally it's a business decision and frankly my 7d has been my workhorse for my business for the last 2.5 years and now that I've got my 5d3, all I need is a solid camera as my backup. My 7d, for whatever reason, has started intermittently giving me problems in windy and cold temperatures where it never did in the past... I suspect it's the weathersealing that has started to degenerate and frankly I can pay to have it fixed, or sell it for max price now, use the funds to buy perhaps the 70d, which may be pretty much like my old "trusty" 7d, so i'm losing nothing really, and probably pay a hundred or two difference, and in april, i get to write off 2 cameras on taxes and have a fresh new warranty... That sounds quite nice to me.

 

[KeithR]

Good point. Physically, it's probably possible, in that the 61-point AF sensor array fits within the APS-C frame (see below). The side points go right to the edge of the frame, which sounds wonderful - but probably too good to be true, as vignetting and distortion will impact AF performance (one reason why there aren't AF points right to the edge of the frame!).

Yeah, but Noink use the same (near as makes no difference) 51 point AF system in the D300 and the D700/D3. True, there's more space around the AF point array in the FF cameras, but it's still the same AF system.

I don't see why Canon couldn't do this too.

 

[hmmm]

Wasn't there a previous rumor about a new sensor for 70D?

The new 70D and 7DmkII (if we see one) will have to compete over a long 2 yr or more product life cycle with the D5200 and D7200 -- and D400 (if we see one). I think it is more plausible that we will see a new sensor in the XXd and Xd -- either an actually new and improved 18MP sensor that really does have lower-ISO DR improvement and high-ISO performance that are demonstrable for marketing -- more likely with something like a 21 MP count to compete with the Nikon products with their higher MP counts. Then the T5i would finally get this new sensor a year or so from now.

Expecting a dusted-off 18MP sensor to compete for the next two years or so is not a compelling marketing plan.

 

[Peerke]

I'm not buying these specs. It isn't possible to have the autofocus from the full frame 5D III on an APS-C 7D II.

Good point. Physically, it's probably possible, in that the 61-point AF sensor array fits within the APS-C frame (see below). The side points go right to the edge of the frame, which sounds wonderful - but probably too good to be true, as vignetting and distortion will impact AF performance (one reason why there aren't AF points right to the edge of the frame!).

Not too good to be true, but an extra selling argument for EF (L) lenses on a crop body 8).

 

[CatfishSoupFTW]

same AF system as the 5Dmrk3 on a 7Dmrk2? hmm.. thats huge jump from the 19 from before! sounds pretty awesome, but i guess it doesnt make it close to the mrk3. just because of sensor, FF, noise, etc. im liking how these higher end APS-C cameras are offering more bang for the buck. pretty exciting, but my eyes are set on the 5Dmrk3.

 

[Astro]

Heck the digic 5 alone could improve noise performance.

well im not shooting JPG.

 

[EOBeav]

Knowing canons pricing system, expect 2000$ and up.

You're probably not far off the mark. Although, still a 1.6 crop, it would be vastly superior to the FF 5DmkII that is going for ~$2200USD right now. With the 5DmkIII at ~$3500USD, there is plenty of price point head room for the latest gen 7D.

 

[RLPhoto]

the Current 7D will become the 70D and the 7DII will become the new top Crop camera. Id like to see an improved 18mp sensor with even better AF, and 10FPS! thatd be sweet.

Knowing canons pricing system, expect 2000$ and up.

But what about the current 7D? You're implying they discontinue it.

Those specs sound credible. And if so, the 70D looks a lot like the old 7D.

It doesn't just look like the 7D it is the 7D - they've just changed the name (inserted a 'zero' to make it xxD)

Why would Canon introduce so many new camera bodies with the same basic sensor? They'll just start to cannibalize their own product range, or have the 'marketing' people totally taken over (given that their R&D spend has dropped from 9.5% of sales in 2009 to 8.5% in 2011, plus the more recent lower figure according to their latest Annual Reports & Accounts, includes a growth in spend in 'Office' & 'Industrial' divisions, hence their 3rd division 'Consumer' which includes DSLRs must be really falling big time).

It is all 'form' over 'substance'.

Yes, They will discontinue it. Its logical. They discontinued alot of stuff recently if you've noticed. It would not suprise me that they discontinue the 7D for the New 7DII. Drop in a 0 and bam, 70D and re-use alot of older fabrication stuff to stretch the design until they release the 80D. Which will really be a new design.

They will discontinue the 7D, When the 7DII sales are enough. Same happened with the 5D and the 5DMKII.

 

[pdirestajr]

1 stop of dynamic range improvements isn't exciting to marketing. Doesn't mean much to the majority of consumers either.

They'll need to push buzz worthy features like: Built-in HDR (there is their sensor DR fix), and cutting edge video features like 1080p 60fps super slomo effects. Doesn't the Nex-7 have this? Then other "features" to make you think you NEED to upgrade.

Otherwise, why update an already great camera?

1080 at 60p... that would be nice for many out there for sure.

If the 1dx or 5d3 doesn't have it, i wouldn't hold your breath on that one...

I don't know about that. The 5DII didn't have 60fps @ 720p, or duel digic 4, or the fps of the 7D, or the focusing system....

It's an aps-c camera. Isn't it easier to render that speed on a smaller sensor? I'm not saying this as a "wish-list" type of thing, (I rarely shoot video) I just think Canon knows how to market.

They won't compete in DR and pixel peeping sensor nonsense, they will compete with their new market position:

The leader in HD-SLR modern day still/ motion image capturing devices. All the hottest directors and blockbuster films are using them! You can too!

 

[awinphoto]

Heck the digic 5 alone could improve noise performance.

well im not shooting JPG.

It's a tad too early to tell... 5d3 files are far more forgiving than 5d2, even in raw... There is a slight improvement in sensor but also the digic 5+ comes in the the rescue, and whenever you read the propaganda in canon's PR, digic processors help low light improvement with no specification to jpeg or raw. It is what it is. Raws or Jpegs, I dont see any reason why there CANT be improvement to both either by digic or sensor improvements/algorithms/whatever.

 

[Astro]

It's a tad too early to tell... 5d3 files are far more forgiving than 5d2, even in raw... There is a slight improvement in sensor but also the digic 5+ comes in the the rescue, and whenever you read the propaganda in canon's PR, digic processors help low light improvement with no specification to jpeg or raw. It is what it is. Raws or Jpegs, I dont see any reason why there CANT be improvement to both either by digic or sensor improvements/algorithms/whatever.

i don´t see how the DIGIC (any) should improve noise on RAW images.
the DIGIC processor comes after the sensor readout in the chain, at least i think so, and for a RAW files there should be no in camera processing like NR, sharpening etc.

but there is not much in-depth info on the net... so if im wrong and someone could enlighten me i would be happy.

 

[bbasiaga]

I would wonder if the 7DII would maybe then be a full frame camera at 18mpx? If we make a rumor stew here and combine the rumored entry level FF camera, with the rumored 5dIII AF in the 7DII - then we could have a viable separation between the 7DII and 70D. All your xDs are FF, and all your XXDs are APSc.

I don't know, but it is fun to speculate.

-Brian

 

[Marsu42]

7D Mark II - Dual Digic 5

Does this mean it won't run magic lantern again? Doh. I also don't think a dual cpu design is necessary if the improvement over the digic4 is as large as I've read.

If the rumor is true, the 70D will be a real EOS Not a POS like the 60D

Canon marketing will make sure that the 70d is sufficiently crippled to make you want the 7d2.

Why would Canon introduce so many new camera bodies with the same basic sensor?

I guess they're recycling their sensor all over again because they simply cannot do better on aps-c. If the 18mp is not a recognizable advancement over the current generation - like 2 stops noise improvement or 2 stops dr or 1+1 - Nikon/Sony clearly has the edge for some time to come.

 

[bolray]

sounds like i don´t have to waste money on fancy gear this year.

i will not upgrade my crop bodys as long as there is no new (better) sensor in terms of DR and noise.

well so i can spend more money on vacations.

Damnit, tomorrow I was finally going to upgrade my 350D (after 7 years) with a 7D. Now I am confused again. :-\

 

[c-law]

I think with the 7D being an actual real product that you can buy now and have been able to buy the the last few years that we can safely assume that Canon are less worried about keeping single digit xD cameras for full frames exclusively than some fans are.

I used to think that they wouldn't change an established line's sensor size but the 1D4 -> 1Dx and G12 -> G1x seem to show that it might be possible although if that were the case we'd see a 7Dx instead of a 7DII.

So my thoughts are that we'd see a 7DII and 70D as described in the rumour with the 7DII at $2500; if the 5DIII jumps $1000 for pro grade AF, I think the 7DII does as well.

Chris

 

[zaphod]

My guess is that the 70d will be the body of 60d but the specs of the 7d.
And the 7d mkII will be about the same as the 7d but with (a single digic5+ and) improved capabilities for movie mode and perhaps 10 - 20 frames per second(why not) in frame mode, full (18Mpx) resolution. That would attract the photographers that currently need the 7d. Hey! We're only speculating.

 

[DB]

Re: Wasn't there a previous rumor about a new sensor for 70D?

The new 70D and 7DmkII (if we see one) will have to compete over a long 2 yr or more product life cycle with the D5200 and D7200 -- and D400 (if we see one). I think it is more plausible that we will see a new sensor in the XXd and Xd -- either an actually new and improved 18MP sensor that really does have lower-ISO DR improvement and high-ISO performance that are demonstrable for marketing -- more likely with something like a 21 MP count to compete with the Nikon products with their higher MP counts. Then the T5i would finally get this new sensor a year or so from now.

Expecting a dusted-off 18MP sensor to compete for the next two years or so is not a compelling marketing plan.

Ask a 'marketeer' what would they rather list as the new features in the future advertisements for the 7D Mark II?:

(a) A new improved 18MP sensor with clean images up to ISO 3200 and a DR boost from 11.7 to say 12.5

OR

(b) The same old dusty sensor but with a RATE button, continuous AF in video mode, 1080p @ 60fps, a flip-out screen, and some in-camera HDR functionality (basically an articulating LCD + a lot of 'zero' cost firmware updates - that's zero cost in terms of manufacturing).


Answer: "99 out of a 100 marketing people who expressed a preference, thought that (b) was a nice list"

 

[DB]

the Current 7D will become the 70D and the 7DII will become the new top Crop camera. Id like to see an improved 18mp sensor with even better AF, and 10FPS! thatd be sweet.

Knowing canons pricing system, expect 2000$ and up.

But what about the current 7D? You're implying they discontinue it.

Those specs sound credible. And if so, the 70D looks a lot like the old 7D.

It doesn't just look like the 7D it is the 7D - they've just changed the name (inserted a 'zero' to make it xxD)

Why would Canon introduce so many new camera bodies with the same basic sensor? They'll just start to cannibalize their own product range, or have the 'marketing' people totally taken over (given that their R&D spend has dropped from 9.5% of sales in 2009 to 8.5% in 2011, plus the more recent lower figure according to their latest Annual Reports & Accounts, includes a growth in spend in 'Office' & 'Industrial' divisions, hence their 3rd division 'Consumer' which includes DSLRs must be really falling big time).

It is all 'form' over 'substance'.

Yes, They will discontinue it. Its logical. They discontinued alot of stuff recently if you've noticed. It would not suprise me that they discontinue the 7D for the New 7DII. Drop in a 0 and bam, 70D and re-use alot of older fabrication stuff to stretch the design until they release the 80D. Which will really be a new design.

They will discontinue the 7D, When the 7DII sales are enough. Same happened with the 5D and the 5DMKII.

Canon has not discontinued the 5D Mark II camera. Indeed, they made a point that they would not be discontinuing it for some time as it fulfills an important gap in their DSLR product line-up i.e. FF body < $2,000.

If others are correct here, that Canon will price the 7D successor @ $2,500 then why not leave the old 7D in the line-up at roughly half the 7D2 price? That way, Rebel users who wish to shoot sports/wildlife have an affordable APS-C body to upgrade to.

 

[Marsu42]

That way, Rebel users who wish to shoot sports/wildlife have an affordable APS-C body to upgrade to.

I don't think Canon is in the business of being nice to wildlife shooters... on the contrary: Esp. for sports shots, you need a rather expensive lens even on a crop body, so these photogs should be able to shell out some $$$ for a body, too. Esp. if you see the 7d2 + shorter lens as an alternative to a 1dx + longer lens.