Canon Full Frame Mirrorless is Definitely Coming, and The Wait Won't Be as Long as We Thought

[Ozarker]

Newer designs - eg the few EF lenses with STM drive will likely do better, old clunkers like the 1987 design EF 50/1.4 with it's subpar half-baked "Micro-USM" drive will presumably perform ... not so well. No surprises there and no miracles.

1993, sir. Insult old lenses accurately, please. (1987 was the 50mm compact macro, not the 50mm f/1.4 USM.)

- A

HEY!!!!!

What if they really are going ahead with the EF-X mount and the 50F1.4 EF-X lens will be the first of the series?

;D ;D ;D ;D hahaha! Stir the pot.

 

[ahsanford]

Just my opinion here, but what I expect to see is a 6D2 sized body, controls laid out like the 6D2, articulated touchscreen, and mirrorless. I expect the mount to natively take EF glass, EF-S glass (in a crop mode), and (i give this last one 50/50 odds of happening) similar to how EF-S protrudes into a camera body, a new series of EF-X lenses that protrude further into the camera body to allow some shorter wide angle lenses.

If 'protruding in' glass happens, I wonder if it will be a FBW implementation. Hooking up something resembling a teleconverter (with Part A going well within Part B) is a bit daunting at first -- I could see some inexperienced user mangle such an insertion.

I say FBW in that similarly to how EF-M has a collapsible lens that extends forward after power on, imagine a lens with a typical back mount (nothing protruding yet) with a straightforward mounting process like EF or EF-S, and then at power-up (or perhaps once after mounting) the rear element then telescopes backwards towards the sensor.

In fairness, that would (a) be complicated to implement, likely requiring some sliding tubes/surfaces that might limit the size of that rear element (and thus preclude this from working on large aperture glass), but (b) I don't know how they could do this with ring USM -- it would have to be a FBW focusing tech like STM or Nano USM, right? So perhaps they'd only do this for a handful of slower / smaller / less expensive lenses.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

HEY!!!!!

What if they really are going ahead with the EF-X mount and the 50F1.4 EF-X lens will be the first of the series?

Then Canon will win the ahsanford Troll of the Decade award.

Keep in mind I skipped the 5D4 as I didn't think (and still don't think) it will improve my photography or unlock new ways to shoot. But a nicely spec'd mirrorless rig that lets me accurately focus MF lenses certainly might change my mind...

- A

 

[Don Haines]

Newer designs - eg the few EF lenses with STM drive will likely do better, old clunkers like the 1987 design EF 50/1.4 with it's subpar half-baked "Micro-USM" drive will presumably perform ... not so well. No surprises there and no miracles.

1993, sir. Insult old lenses accurately, please. (1987 was the 50mm compact macro, not the 50mm f/1.4 USM.)

- A

HEY!!!!!

What if they really are going ahead with the EF-X mount and the 50F1.4 EF-X lens will be the first of the series?

;D ;D ;D ;D hahaha! Stir the pot.

I'm one of those people who wants a 50F1.4

 

[ahsanford]

We've had a lot of threads on mirrorless, gang -- but this is a good one. Nice work. Keep it up!

- A

 

[Talys]

So, let me flip it around, and pose a question of preference for you guys.

Let's put aside all of the lenses that are larger for a moment, including 70-200/2.8. So, think, 24-70/2.8 would be on the larger side of what you'd design the camera around. If you do that, what would be the ideal sized body of any currently made mirrorless or DSLR?

For me, the size and shape of the camera, particularly grip and feel, for walkaround lenses, would be the 80D, though I would like to have some space for 5D-type buttons/joystick.

Looking at lenses that I like to use, a camera the size of an SL is ideal for lenses like 80/1.8. But, there are just not enough lenses of that size and weight that I often have mounted.

 

[jedy]

I can't help thinking this camera will be overpriced for what it will offer in specs. Could be 6D II specs but 5D IV price. Canon's underwhelming DSLR releases and their current, overpriced apsc mirrorless cameras led me to this conclusion.

 

[slclick]

HEY!!!!!

What if they really are going ahead with the EF-X mount and the 50F1.4 EF-X lens will be the first of the series?

Then Canon will win the ahsanford Troll of the Decade award.

Keep in mind I skipped the 5D4 as I didn't think (and still don't think) it will improve my photography or unlock new ways to shoot. But a nicely spec'd mirrorless rig that lets me accurately focus MF lenses certainly might change my mind...

- A

I for one was very pleasantly surprised at the focus peaking on the M5. Time and time again I read about people complaining how it's marginal or poor. Maybe they haven't dialed it it to suit their ergonomics? I use right side touch screen and red illumination and find it nails it every time. This is from someone with poor vision due to APMMPE who gave up MF glass ten years ago.

 

[Don Haines]

So, let me flip it around, and pose a question of preference for you guys.

Let's put aside all of the lenses that are larger for a moment, including 70-200/2.8. So, think, 24-70/2.8 would be on the larger side of what you'd design the camera around. If you do that, what would be the ideal sized body of any currently made mirrorless or DSLR?

For me, the size and shape of the camera, particularly grip and feel, for walkaround lenses, would be the 80D, though I would like to have some space for 5D-type buttons/joystick.

Looking at lenses that I like to use, a camera the size of an SL is ideal for lenses like 80/1.8. But, there are just not enough lenses of that size and weight that I often have mounted.

I’m a wee bit towards the end of the bell curve for size.... 6’3” and when I get on a plane my shoulders are about 6 inches wider than my seat. Of all the camera that I have used, I find the 5D series fits hands best, with the 7D2 close behind. The 6D2 is a touch small for me, but the articulated touchscreen and interface are great.

I think that if they made a mirrorless 6D2 sized, with the articulated touchscreen AND a joystick it would sell well. Then, a year down the road, come out with a 5D sized, super tough, monster with 50fps burst and 6K video....

 

[dak723]

I can't help thinking this camera will be overpriced for what it will offer in specs. Could be 6D II specs but 5D IV price. Canon's underwhelming DSLR releases and their current, overpriced apsc mirrorless cameras led me to this conclusion.

So how many of the underwhelming and overpriced cameras have you actually used?

I just returned the "twice the price" "pro level" Olympus E-M1 II because it just can't compete with my Canon M5. And I love Olympus cameras - and still have the E-M1, but Canon's touch focus AF point selector using EVF works much better. When comparing the video, it's not even close. Don't need any pro bells and whistles or 4K, just need video to focus for everyday type activities. Canon's DPAF does the job better than anything else I have tried.

 

[faustino]

Regarding the mount standard, I would keep the EF using the space left by the mirror to throw in some features: (1) an incorporated polariser filter, maybe one that automatically rotates as the photographer rotate the camera from landscape to portrait; (2) an incorporated ND filter, or even multiple ones; IBIS; ...

 

[Loswr]

There are two camps – those who want small and those who want better ergonomics a more seamless experience that mimics the FF SLRs they use today. Those who want small should be looking to APS-C anyway.

Agree, but note my edit above.

While I acknowledge that ergonomics are subjective, as is any use of the word 'better', let me ask...have you tried using an a7-series body with a 24-70/2.8GM or 70-200/2.8GM? I have, and I can confidently state that the ergonomics of my 1D X with the corresponding f/2.8L zooms is better. Much better.

 

[Talys]

So, let me flip it around, and pose a question of preference for you guys.

Let's put aside all of the lenses that are larger for a moment, including 70-200/2.8. So, think, 24-70/2.8 would be on the larger side of what you'd design the camera around. If you do that, what would be the ideal sized body of any currently made mirrorless or DSLR?

For me, the size and shape of the camera, particularly grip and feel, for walkaround lenses, would be the 80D, though I would like to have some space for 5D-type buttons/joystick.

Looking at lenses that I like to use, a camera the size of an SL is ideal for lenses like 80/1.8. But, there are just not enough lenses of that size and weight that I often have mounted.

I’m a wee bit towards the end of the bell curve for size.... 6’3” and when I get on a plane my shoulders are about 6 inches wider than my seat. Of all the camera that I have used, I find the 5D series fits hands best, with the 7D2 close behind. The 6D2 is a touch small for me, but the articulated touchscreen and interface are great.

I think that if they made a mirrorless 6D2 sized, with the articulated touchscreen AND a joystick it would sell well. Then, a year down the road, come out with a 5D sized, super tough, monster with 50fps burst and 6K video....

I would be very happy with that. The 80D's size might cause some compromises - like fewer buttons, smaller screen, etc -- that are less than ideal for my dream camera.

I do like the 80D's depth more than the 6D2, though. I know it's only a tiny difference, but I am not 6'3"

While I acknowledge that ergonomics are subjective, as is any use of the word 'better', let me ask...have you tried using an a7-series body with a 24-70/2.8GM or 70-200/2.8GM? I have, and I can confidently state that the ergonomics of my 1D X with the corresponding f/2.8L zooms is better. Much better.

The ergonomics of a Rebel with the corresponding f/2.8L zooms are also much better. Presuming your fingers don't cramp against the lens barrel, you need a grip on A7 to make the camera tolerable to use for an extended time when paired with against 1kg - 1.5kg lenses. Then, the camera has downright weird ergonomics. It just too tall and skinny.

At the end of the day, I do think there are people who want M5 bodies with full frame sensors and optically compromised lenses. I am the first person to scream, "this is crazy". But the market is there, so if Canon wants to give them some love, I'll just shrug, as long as it doesn't impede their release of cameras for the enthusiast/professional market where bodies are sized properly to the most common lenses that are used on those bodies.

I mean, there are people who think that there's no point to a 85/1.4, because a 24-105/4 or even some superzoom can do the job "just as well". Great for them, build them what they want and sell it to them -- but it's not for me.

 

[Loswr]

I mean, there are people who think that there's no point to a 85/1.4, because a 24-105/4 or even some superzoom can do the job "just as well". Great for them, build them what they want and sell it to them -- but it's not for me.

I think there's a point to both. I guess that's why I have >20 lenses.

 

[Don Haines]

I think that if they made a mirrorless 6D2 sized, with the articulated touchscreen AND a joystick it would sell well. Then, a year down the road, come out with a 5D sized, super tough, monster with 50fps burst and 6K video....

I would be very happy with that. The 80D's size might cause some compromises - like fewer buttons, smaller screen, etc -- that are less than ideal for my dream camera.

I do like the 80D's depth more than the 6D2, though. I know it's only a tiny difference, but I am not 6'3"

And this is the great ergonomics quandary..... how to fit a wide variety of sizes and desires? Personally, I prefer the 7D2/5D4 sized body and the joystick, but also like the articulated touchscreen of the 6D2. My wish is that they will enter the FF mirrorless segment at the bottom of the category with the mirrorless equivalent of the 6D2, and follow it up later with higher end models, like a 50fps 5D equivalent and then a 100fps iDX equivalent with 6K video This scenario is clouded considerably by my personal desire...

What I really expect to see happen is for the rebels to fade away... At some point I expect to see a much lower level FF mirrorless with Rebel like features and interface... this is where the real money is. Imagine if Canon announced a FF rebel mirrorless, perhaps a mirrorless FF SL2, for $600! Imagine the impact that would have on the market!!!!! Imagine the noise on this forum!

My prediction is that whatever they choose, there will be some very distraught forum users and calls of "Canon is doomed", and that it will sell well....

 

[TAF]

So, what are the odds that given an on-sensor ADC and the ability to crop (and hence increase frame rate), Canon will provide something extra special to the new user - slow motion video?

Perhaps a 640x480 at 1500fps or so?

That would open an entirely new market area for them.

It would certainly be intriguing.

640x480 at 1500fps would certainly be spectacular......

I have an Olympus P/S that can do it at 480fps.... it is pretty neat for small birds and (of course) cats If the sensor was designed for such operation on a FF canon they should be able to get away with that.... possibly even 960fps

That one feature alone would interest a number of people.

Anoher possibility is: Take a large buffer, fast storage, and have a full size image burst rate of 60 or 120 frames per second. That would have the pro sports shooters tripping over each other trying to get thier hands on one...

We have no idea what's coming or when, and the speculation is fascinating. This will be interesting!

Ah yes, cat videos...I have been fairly pleased with my iPhone 6 for slowish motion of my feline overlords. 480 fps? Sounds very interesting indeed. I'll have to take a look.

Now, a notional 960 fps from Canon would be a great starting point. The resolution of old Casio F1 got very small at theses levels; if they can stick to at least VGA, they would own the market segment.

I hadn't considered full size at 60-120 fps, but that would be an amazing capability for sports photographers (which is a market that Canon tries very hard to own).

If they provide such a feature, I might have to become an 'early adopter'.

My cats would thank them for it.

 

[Yasko]

When I consider all the latest FF EF lens releases by Canon (TS-E, 85 1.4, the upcoming 70-200 f/4 etc) I just don't see the EF mount being replaced completely or being reduced to a more or less 'use a bad adapter for them'-alternative.

Either EF mount or a really well thought-through adapter solution for EF lenses it will be.
My two cents ^^

 

[BillB]

HEY!!!!!

What if they really are going ahead with the EF-X mount and the 50F1.4 EF-X lens will be the first of the series?

Would that be your EF-X proposal or AvTvM's notion of a short flange and slightly narrower throat? With your design, the 50mm F1.4 might as well be basically the same old EF because nothing would be protruding behind the mount. On the other hand, a lens with AvTvM's EF-X specs would need a camera with the same specs, and some of us might be very unhappy.

 

[BillB]

What I really expect to see happen is for the rebels to fade away... At some point I expect to see a much lower level FF mirrorless with Rebel like features and interface... this is where the real money is. Imagine if Canon announced a FF rebel mirrorless, perhaps a mirrorless FF SL2, for $600! Imagine the impact that would have on the market!!!!! Imagine the noise on this forum!

[/quote]

At the lower levels, I have my doubts about how much of a price premium the market will support for FF cameras (and lenses) compared to aps-c cameras, M and otherwise, and that leads to the question of how much more expensive it will be to make FF cameras.

 

[Hector1970]

My prediction is that whatever they choose, there will be some very distraught forum users and calls of "Canon is doomed", and that it will sell well....
[/quote]

Canon is doomed, maybe not today or tomorrow but soon.
I've seen the future. In 2049 all the ads are for Sony.

In the meantime I'd be happy with a 5D size body (I find 1DX too big). I wouldn't mind an adapter as long as it proves to be non impactful on quality. Something that could be permanently left on would be good.
If it could have a good focus system and 12 FPS I'd take it in a heartbeat.