Canon Full Frame Mirrorless to use Dedicated Sensor [CR2]

[Loswr]

If I understand the curved sensor sales pitch, it would only work in the 2nd (thin body) option above and the corresponding adaptor would have to invert/account for the flat plane of the EF image circle to have it work well on the curved sensor behind it.

Recall that Canon filed a patent for a sensor with variable curvature which could be altered 'on the fly', because different focal lengths would optimally need different sensor curvatures. One end of the range of possible curvatures in the patent was zero, i.e. flat. So, a sensor that could be varied from flat to curved would be directly compatible with EF lenses and newly-designed lenses for a curved sensor.

A+, yes, variable curvature sensor would solve this EF compatibility zanyness.

But goodness, do you see a company jumping from [rigid / flat] all the way to [flexible / variably curved] on a first foray into curved sensors? Wouldn't a layup of a curved sensor fixed lens rig be a logical place to tinker with a curved sensor before swinging for the fences?

I don't think we'll see curved sensors in production models for quite some time, not in MILCs or fixed-lens models.

 

[Machaon]

We’re still being told not to expect an announcement until at least August of 2018 ahead of Photokina in Cologne, Germany.

Way too late to the FF mirrorless game.
My money has already gone into another system. While I still have a Canon DSLR, I can’t see myself buying another or Canon selling me any more camera systems in the future.
After 15 years in the EOS system, it is a shame that they were so reluctant to offer FF mirrorless.
Best of luck to them, though.

 

[dak723]

I contend that folks on camera forums care about sensors -- specifically base ISO DR -- so much more than just about every camera market level's actual userbase does. It matters, don't get me wrong, but I think it matters far far less than the bigger picture of ecosystem, lenses, ergonomics, reliability, service, etc.

In full disclosure, I continue to shake my head that the on-chip ADC hotness worthy of an 80D appears to have been left out of the 6D2 sensor. I believe it was a poor decision for that market segment. But I have yet to see any negative sales numbers from Canon or big price reduction that would imply the sensor inside is hurting its sales.

- A

I believe you are correct - that non-forum photographers would say that the IQ of every ILC camera is virtually identical, so why care about the sensor. On a more personal note, when I started coming onto the forum here all I heard about was how much better the Sony sensors were compared to Canon's. Having just bought a 6D, I was somewhat upset. after a while, when the Sony A7 II came out, I decided to get one to replace my obviously inferior 6D. What I found out was that there was absolutely not one thing the Sony did better and there was no difference in the side-by-side photos I took with the two cameras. So there is very good reason that non-forum folks shouldn't care about the sensors.

The above also answers why the 6D II will almost certainly be a success. Because unless you are obsessed with things that really don't matter much (DR and noise) you will find that the pics form the 6D II are fantastic - just as the pics from the 6d are. It's funny, I see lot of folks making DR comparisons and automatically assuming that more DR makes for a better photograph. And yet when you see photos with a lot of DR (including but not only HDR shots) they are flat, washed out and not nearly as good a shot (in my opinion, obviously) as photos with more contrast and less DR. Unfortunately, on forums such as this one, people are far more interested in test numbers and noise comparisons than on how good the photos actually look.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

It's funny, I see lot of folks making DR comparisons and automatically assuming that more DR makes for a better photograph. And yet when you see photos with a lot of DR (including but not only HDR shots) they are flat, washed out and not nearly as good a shot (in my opinion, obviously) as photos with more contrast and less DR. Unfortunately, on forums such as this one, people are far more interested in test numbers and noise comparisons than on how good the photos actually look.

First, you should understand what more DR in a sensor really is.

It is a sensor with less low ISO noise. That's all. It has nothing to do with those weird (some love them) HDR images.

The advantage from such a sensor comes when you need to boost shadow areas in post processing. You will see less noise when you do this. It can be useful for cases where a bride is wearing a white dress and a groom is dressed in black. If the image is exposed perfectly on the white dress, the black suit might benefit from lifting the dark areas. Thats the practical usage and real benefit.

 

[danski0224]

Long time to wait. A7rii are approaching 2k mark on the grey markets.

Yup.

 

[bokehmon22]

We’re still being told not to expect an announcement until at least August of 2018 ahead of Photokina in Cologne, Germany.

Way too late to the FF mirrorless game.
My money has already gone into another system. While I still have a Canon DSLR, I can’t see myself buying another or Canon selling me any more camera systems in the future.
After 15 years in the EOS system, it is a shame that they were so reluctant to offer FF mirrorless.
Best of luck to them, though.

I shoot mostly wedding and I know alot of wedding photographers who haven't made the switch to Sony yet because we value reliability, dual SD, and ergonomic. Other haven't switch because of glasses. Sony lens are expensive especially if you buy Canon L used/refurbish. A9 was an viable alternative but only recently, but it is still expensive, and AF performance with adapter lens or buy expensive native lens. Maybe the A7III or future Sony camera may address these concerns.

If Canon come out with a 5D Mark IV mirror less version with full EF lens compatibility while offering incremental increases in performance with good battery life, ergonomic, dual SD, I'm sure alot of people would upgrade. Otherwise, my 5D Mark IV get the job done until Sony/Canon have offering FF mirrorless that appeal to me.

 

[ahsanford]

I shoot mostly wedding and I know alot of wedding photographers who haven't made the switch to Sony yet because we value reliability, dual SD, and ergonomic. Other haven't switch because of glasses. Sony lens are expensive especially if you buy Canon L used/refurbish. A9 was an viable alternative but only recently, but it is still expensive, and AF performance with adapter lens or buy expensive native lens. Maybe the A7III or future Sony camera may address these concerns.

I see Sony as the Borg from Star Trek on their mirrorless ambitions. They are not nuanced and they are not crafty, but they systematically try to eliminate the reasons why you wouldn't try the A7 platform:

(move from A7 I bodies to A7 II bodies) You want better AF? Here's four jillion AF points.

(at first) Want more lenses right now? We'll work with the adaptor folks and drive EF lenses' AF.

(later) Want more pro speed zooms and primes? Here you are. (At staple/modest FLs, of course, this is clearly a long climb to EF/FX parity.)

So you lens adapting folks and videographers want IBIS? Here you go.

Oh, you want a camera with everything? Meet the A7R II.

Want a pro body with two cards? Here's the A9.

However, nowhere in there are they applying any wisdom or accumulated experience of working photographers. I expect the A7 III platform to have another round of Borg-like feature-based reasons why people don't use the system -- better performance with glasses, more lenses, more tech/MP/fps/video features, etc. But I still think they'll drive past things that matter useability / ergonomics-wise to Canon and Nikon folks. So I believe the A7 III platform will be droolworthy hardware with frustrating inherited DNA (focus by wire pro glass) and inexplicable design decisions (grip, finger spacing, interface, etc.), but I could be wrong.

- A

 

[lucuias]

Hope this have either similar performance with 5Dmark IV sensor or better.6DMk2 sensor is just a joke as of 2017

 

[AvTvM]

Hope this have either similar performance with 5Dmark IV sensor or better.6DMk2 sensor is just a joke as of 2017

exactly.

Actually even 5D IV sensor would be the bare minimum for a 2018 Canon FF mirrorless camera ... which for sure will not be sold cheap. I actually expect it to be priced even higher than 5D IV.

 

[Mikehit]

However, nowhere in there are they applying any wisdom or accumulated experience of working photographers.

I have seen a couple of reviews of the A9 saying that it seems Sony is listening to comments from photographers regards interface and functionality - but, boy, has it taken them time to do so. About the major criticism of the Sony NEX range, and one reason I and many others did not buy it, was the bloody awful interface; if people criticise Canon for not listening then IMO Sony make them look like Dr Phil.

So if Sony do genuinely go that down the line and they start breaking that haptics barrier it will put that little bit more pressure on Canon.

 

[AvTvM]

However, nowhere in there are they applying any wisdom or accumulated experience of working photographers.

I have seen a couple of reviews of the A9 saying that it seems Sony is listening to comments from photographers regards interface and functionality - but, boy, has it taken them time to do so. About the major criticism of the Sony NEX range, and one reason I and many others did not buy it, was the bloody awful interface; if people criticise Canon for not listening then IMO Sony make them look like Dr Phil.

So if Sony do genuinely go that down the line and they start breaking that haptics barrier it will put that little bit more pressure on Canon.

I see that a bit more differentiated ... and would state it "the other way round": one of the few things Canon currently does really well in comparison to Sony is the user interface ... but only for "full EOS interface" = rear thumbwheel and AF point selector joystick/nipple = 7D, 5D, 1D series.

Rebel class, xxD and 6D II are already much weaker and the UI presented by "Powershot" firmware is flawed in many ways, only menu structure and touch LCD functionality (when present) is very good. And Canon EOS M5 flip-down LCD is a total fail in terms of usability and ergonomics.

 

[Jopa]

why you wouldn't try the A7 platform

Why would you try the A7 platform if your existing platform ain't broken?

 

[noncho]

M5 would be the highest crop class -> I'm so happy that I sold M system then.

 

[BillB]

I shoot mostly wedding and I know alot of wedding photographers who haven't made the switch to Sony yet because we value reliability, dual SD, and ergonomic. Other haven't switch because of glasses. Sony lens are expensive especially if you buy Canon L used/refurbish. A9 was an viable alternative but only recently, but it is still expensive, and AF performance with adapter lens or buy expensive native lens. Maybe the A7III or future Sony camera may address these concerns.

I see Sony as the Borg from Star Trek on their mirrorless ambitions. They are not nuanced and they are not crafty, but they systematically try to eliminate the reasons why you wouldn't try the A7 platform:

(move from A7 I bodies to A7 II bodies) You want better AF? Here's four jillion AF points.

(at first) Want more lenses right now? We'll work with the adaptor folks and drive EF lenses' AF.

(later) Want more pro speed zooms and primes? Here you are. (At staple/modest FLs, of course, this is clearly a long climb to EF/FX parity.)

So you lens adapting folks and videographers want IBIS? Here you go.

Oh, you want a camera with everything? Meet the A7R II.

Want a pro body with two cards? Here's the A9.

However, nowhere in there are they applying any wisdom or accumulated experience of working photographers. I expect the A7 III platform to have another round of Borg-like feature-based reasons why people don't use the system -- better performance with glasses, more lenses, more tech/MP/fps/video features, etc. But I still think they'll drive past things that matter useability / ergonomics-wise to Canon and Nikon folks. So I believe the A7 III platform will be droolworthy hardware with frustrating inherited DNA (focus by wire pro glass) and inexplicable design decisions (grip, finger spacing, interface, etc.), but I could be wrong.

- A

One thing that doesn't seem to change much (with the exception of the A9) is the asking price of around $3000. Sony seems determined to come up with a mirrorless fullframe camera that will sell well for that price by raising the specs with each model. Not sure that strategy is working that all that well for them. Also not sure that copying Sony's strategy will be all that appealing to Canon or Nikon.

 

[-pekr-]

Canon would get publicly devastated in camera forums and enthusiast photography websites for putting 6DII sensor into the mirrorless whatever. We can bet on that. Everyone knows they can do better than the 6DII sensor and we are talking a camera at least one year away. I can guarantee you, that FF mirrorless is so important to them, that there is exactly a zero chance for them to do such a marketing design decision mistake again ....

Amended that for you.

....

In full disclosure, I continue to shake my head that the on-chip ADC hotness worthy of an 80D appears to have been left out of the 6D2 sensor. I believe it was a poor decision for that market segment. But I have yet to see any negative sales numbers from Canon or big price reduction that would imply the sensor inside is hurting its sales.

- A

Thank you for amending my main point!

As for the rest - we might not see any negative sales numbers, but that does not mean it went unnoticed. IIRC it was Marco Nero on DPR, who talked to some Canon rep, stating, that they "did not expect the sh*tload they received".

And that says it rather well imo. One could call Canon being just arrogant thinking that users are stupid, but I actually think, that it is even worse - Canon are just dinosaurs. They thought that it is OK to go into a basemend, dig-up the old sensor tech, usb 2.0 micro connector, etc., just to clear-up some old stock left.

When was it for the last time the world was excited for Canon actually innovating, not playing just a catch up game? 300D, 5D2, 7D2, 70D (first DPAF) ... anything else? I don't mind Canon being conservative and not living on the bleeding edge, but the 6DII was just too much to swallow.

With the FF mirrorless, they can't do such a compromise as on the 6DII. It would be a fiasco.

 

[Loswr]

When was it for the last time the world was excited for Canon actually innovating, not playing just a catch up game?

You're right...everyone and their brother makes tilt-shift-macro lenses. There are lots of rectilinear FF lenses that 'go to 11' (mm), and fisheye zooms are a dime-a-dozen. Meanwhile, all those companies to which you think Canon must play a catch up game, are losing ILC market share...to Canon. Fiasco, indeed.

 

[BillB]

When was it for the last time the world was excited for Canon actually innovating, not playing just a catch up game?

You're right...everyone and their brother makes tilt-shift-macro lenses. There are lots of rectilinear FF lenses that 'go to 11' (mm), and fisheye zooms are a dime-a-dozen. Meanwhile, all those companies to which you think Canon must play a catch up game, are losing ILC market share...to Canon. Fiasco, indeed.

Not to mention touch screen focussing based on dual pixel technology, but that is a much bigger deal for some people than it is for others. Nobody else is even on the playing field in that game, speaking of mirrorless/Liveview technologies.

 

[-pekr-]

When was it for the last time the world was excited for Canon actually innovating, not playing just a catch up game?

You're right...everyone and their brother makes tilt-shift-macro lenses. There are lots of rectilinear FF lenses that 'go to 11' (mm), and fisheye zooms are a dime-a-dozen. Meanwhile, all those companies to which you think Canon must play a catch up game, are losing ILC market share...to Canon. Fiasco, indeed.

It's just a question of perception. You most probably belong to the apologist gang

While I say - no way Canon gets my money for the 6DII just for what they did to its sensor (as we all know, thay can do better), your reply is - wake me up, once competing brands have tilt-shift lenses and even the 6DII is selling like a hotcake so what. I don't care for ppl buying whatever Canon throws at them, as far as it does not fit my bill.

OTOH I am a lazy dog to switch brands, so we decided so safe a bit and go with the 5DIV, thinking of getting M6 for an amusement and wishing Canon not screwing FF MILC, so that I can have another gadget to dream of

 

[Loswr]

It's just a question of perception. You most probably belong to the apologist gang

Indeed, it is a question of perception. There are those who perceive 'innovation' to be only that which delivers something they personally want...and you most probably belong to that gang. Others, myself included, are able to view innovation in the broader context. Personally, I have no use or desire for a fisheye lens, but I can recognize innovation even when it doesn't personally benefit me. I'm also an optimist...I believe that people who have a narrow-minded viewpoint can someday learn to perceive with a more open mind.

 

[Mikehit]

As for the rest - we might not see any negative sales numbers, but that does not mean it went unnoticed. IIRC it was Marco Nero on DPR, who talked to some Canon rep, stating, that they "did not expect the sh*tload they received".

And that says it rather well imo. One could call Canon being just arrogant thinking that users are stupid, but I actually think, that it is even worse - Canon are just dinosaurs. They thought that it is OK to go into a basemend, dig-up the old sensor tech, usb 2.0 micro connector, etc., just to clear-up some old stock left.

When was it for the last time the world was excited for Canon actually innovating, not playing just a catch up game? 300D, 5D2, 7D2, 70D (first DPAF) ... anything else? I don't mind Canon being conservative and not living on the bleeding edge, but the 6DII was just too much to swallow.

With the FF mirrorless, they can't do such a compromise as on the 6DII. It would be a fiasco.

I don't think it is Canon being dinosaurs. If you think about it the 6D2 is really the only mistake they have made in many years. People have criticised Canon for 6+ years for not 'innovating' by which they mean 'a sensor with the DR of a Sony camera' but they keep on selling by making significant, if less flashy, developments elsewhere. Even all this clamour about 4k is merely fluff in the context of the market as a whole and even then only in the last 12 months. But what the 6D2 did do was lend a whole can of gasoline to the fire that is the myth that Canon do not innovate - and it is a myth. 'But you are the market leader and by definition you have to include in your camera everything...absolutely everything...that all the competition does. It is our right a customers that you give it to us'

I think when Canon started developing the sensor on the 6D2 had a very specific idea in how they wanted it to improve on the 6D, but in the time it takes to develop a camera the market took a sharp turn and merely being a '6D that is better' (which is what 6D users actually wanted) is not enough. Add to this the way that social media has become a hunting ground in so many social areas (not just cameras) for the baying mobs who think anyone who does not agree with them is destined to burn in hell or go into bankruptcy for daring to ignore them and Canon have suffered trial by internet.

I don't think they will make that mistake again and their response will be very interesting. If they do not respond positively then I think the 'dinosaurs' comment will start to be relevant.