Canon releases an official statement about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 heat concerns

BakaBokeh

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8K footage, looks like the exported bitrate was low but still interesting to watch. Read the description and he points to over heating but also talks about the limitation of workflow of 8K.

Amazing, I didn't know you could publish to 8K on YouTube. He says only 1080p, but it gives me the option to select 8K.

And here I am watching it in the corner of my 1080p work monitor. :ROFLMAO:
 
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ZERO (in caps) in my 6 years of using RED. I generally prefer Alexia but use RED often because of fps availability and smaller form factor.
And I have a nearly 20 year old EF 50 f1.4 that focuses perfectly at f1.4 and is sharper than the 100 L macro at f5.6 and beyond and despite rolling around in a camera bag almost all that near 20 years has never had an AF or durability issue, in fact it has never had an issue of any kind. But that isn’t most peoples experience of that model lens.

Maybe you and I are just the lucky outliers. ;)
 
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PureClassA

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Never used an external recorder so can you just record the output of the HDMI feed without ever pressing record on the camera?
My experience is with the ATOMOS products. I have a Ninja V and my new Shogun 7 will arrive today to go with my R6. So I'm speaking for Atomos machines.

You start and stop recording ON the external. This is why you see people talk about having a "Clean HDMI Out". Once you set the camera menu to the format you want (HD, 4K, 24p, 30p, 60p, etc...) and set your exposure. You're done. The Ninja V has a switch in the touch screen menu where you can tell it to auto detect Camera input, and in my EOS R case, the Ninja V see the 10 bit C-Log 422 coming in and adjust parameters for it instantly, provided of course you have engaged the 10 bit C-Log in the EOS R menu.

It could NOT be any easier. And with now going into CF Express Cards to get 4K60, you'll spend $600 on a couple 256MB cards - OR- You can spend $600 on a Ninja V and get 10 times more functionality and then spend $100 on a fast 1000MB (1TB) SSD... all while recording in ProResHQ which is a much smoother codec to edit in
 
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PureClassA

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The EOS R used a 1:1 4K crop to reduce overheating. The sensor readout for the R5 is a bit more of a challenge. It's the reason the Nikon Z7 and Sony A7RIII had to line skip instead of oversample like their lower megapixel counterparts.
True, but bear in mind, if the recording, and thereby the encoding, is taking place OFF camera, you are cutting the processor load (and heat) DRAMATICALLY.

That's one of the whole reasons to use externals, ESPECIALLY in smaller cameras like this. If I record internally in my EOS R, I don't think I'd even get an hour out the battery. Maybe 30-45 mins if that. Same battery, same camera, same everything, but recording externally? I shot almost 2 hours straight (ONE shot) and the LPE6N still had 30%-40% on it. (LCD screen closed and off... cuz... who needs it with a monitor unless you have to AF track)

So that right there tells you how much power and thereby heat are being consumed and generated respectively by the CPU JUST when you're asking it to do recording/encoding internally.

I'm actually THRILLED Canon left IN the oversampling feature instead of nixing it altogether because of the internal recording thermal issues. Because the camera CAN do it, but it's best to use an external device with it's own dedicated CPU and power source to handle that heavy lifting.

Oh? You wanna do it IN camera too? OK!! But you gotta respect the laws of physics and the principals of thermodynamics. Camera gonna get HOT and you'll be limited. But hey, those modes that might cause trouble INTERNALLY? Eh, almost no one ever records a SINGLE SHOT in those particular modes long enough to create that problem... unless you are deliberately trying to over heat it .... or have some BIZARRE needs... or you just don't know what you're doing... (and your internal card probably would have LONG run outta space before)

Otherwise, get a damn Shogun 7 or a Ninja V... ;)
 
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PureClassA

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I'll say this to sum up. I seriously doubt that anyone buying these cameras to use them primarily for serious video purposes (like me, I got the R6) are at all bothered by this "issue" because they are likely, mostly using external recording means, which would almost assuredly negate this whole thing.
 
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BakaBokeh

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I'll say this to sum up. I seriously doubt that anyone buying these cameras to use them primarily for serious video purposes (like me, I got the R6) are at all bothered by this "issue" because they are likely, mostly using external recording means, which would almost assuredly negate this whole thing.
I am appalled that I am only limited to 15 minute 4K120p recording.

120 FPS on a 24 FPS timeline is 5 times speed reduction.

So that translates to 75 minutes of slow motion video. There goes my allusions of making feature film length b-roll youtube videos.
 
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davidhfe

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I'll say this to sum up. I seriously doubt that anyone buying these cameras to use them primarily for serious video purposes (like me, I got the R6) are at all bothered by this "issue" because they are likely, mostly using external recording means, which would almost assuredly negate this whole thing.

This is a dangerous assumption. The on chip information processing, read circuitry, and ADC are all big sources of heat. I don't think the encoding is what's at fault here, otherwise you wouldn't see unlimited (well, thermally) times in the binning and 1:1 modes. Would love to be wrong, as it'd solve the most important (oversampled 4K24/30 and 4K60) issues. An external recorder still won't give you 8K RAW nor 4K 120.
 
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I am so blessed to have filmed using 400ft rolls on 35mm cameras. My left index finger would be on the on/off switch all the time. If we all learn that, the camera will not overheat, nor will the HDD get overloaded, nor will we spend hours sorting footage in edit. Of course, when we need to roll continuously we have 4k modes that do not overhead. I just do not see the problem here.

Nice story, and I heard stories about the Pony Express.

Now FF to 2020
 
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So, for the R5, both line-skipped FF 4K30 and oversampled APS-C 4K30 have no heat issues?

Which means, in video mode it's actually no worse than any other weather-sealed mirrorless camera with stills ergonomics?

Yes, and that means it looks like the thermals are basically where everyone else is right now.

The two modes it doesn't overheat are actually the same two modes I shoot in all the time for long events, etc. I'm either shooting 4K24 FF or using a mapped hotkey to switch to a S35 crop for a bit of extra reach when needed. You don't always get time for a lens swap in certain situations. I've read that it may overheat in these binned/cropped modes as well if the ambient temperature rises, but my Sony's aren't unlimited in 4K recording either. I've gotten the A7III to overheat under the sun in FF (which is oversampled from 6K) after about 90mins, but I've never gotten the A7RIII to overheat ever in any situation (since it is binned in FF and oversampled from 5K in S35 which I only sporadically use). This is why my A7III is always with the gimbal operator and I'm usually with the A7RIII covering the speeches, speakers, etc.

That being said, the new Canon R5/R6 shoot at a higher bitrate and bit-depth than all of the Sony's on the market. I think Canon played its cards right this time. If you think about it, it has achieved product segmentation from its cinema line without the need to reduce or exclude features. Both the thermals and retaining the 29:59 limit won't appear to be purposeful "crippling" so to speak. In fact, the R5 includes headlining features like 8K and RAW which nobody else has and is a big marketing win. It goes a long way in breaking the negative press cycle of Canon's "cripple hammer" approach.

When Sony releases their A7SIII which will be limited to probably 4K120, no internal RAW, but unlimited recording in all modes, casual observers will see the R5 w/ 45MP+8K+INTERNAL RAW and compare it with the A7SIII w/ 12MP+4K+ONLY 422 INTERNAL and quickly see who the "victor" is. Whether or not either camera is actually better will really depend on how you shoot. IMO, neither approach is right or wrong.

On that same note, I don't agree that us who do a lot of video work on MILCs should just "Get a cinema camera.." The form factor, size and weight are entirely different and thus the production gear to support those cameras are much larger. I can pack a mini motorized slider, 3 axis timelapse moco, dji gimbal, 2 bodies and a few primes and batteries all in a Peak design backpack. For the types of work that support this type of loadout, I will also never shoot RAW and rather have a lighter weight codec that can reduce time in post and minimize storage and archival requirements.

For pre-planned content, docs and narratives, I shoot those on my RED where I can afford the 15-20 secs it takes to boot-up, the need to blackshade at different settings and ambient temps and takes v-mounts that only run 80mins or so. The menus are also complex and laggy to the point there is an iOS app (Donna Pro) that simulates the menu for DPs and ACs to practice on. Also depending on the compression ratio, minimags can fill up exceptionally quick, but a DIT is usually backing up and cycling mags.

MILCs can do a bit of everything. It can do a bit of ENG/EFP work like a C200/C300 but with better AF and IBIS for handheld work, but doesn't have a great audio section, NDs or ergonomics like on body controls, etc. It can also do a bit pre-planned/narrative work in the realm of cine cameras with a larger sensor for better noise control and artistic DoF control, but as a result of its design limitations, are heat limited affecting shooting time because it needs to balance stills resolution. Some of this is a limit of the tech available and some of this is artificially imposed as a result of product segmentation from manufacturers.

Years ago, when the hybrid market was just getting off its feet, many of us were just discovering the equipment and workflows that suited shooting video on a MILC. But today, most of us in that market do have a clue and have found good solutions in the market (not always Canon) that fit that a video use case that isn't always "get a cinema camera". What that means is, in the past, I would need a stills body, an ENG camcorder and a cinema camera to cover 3 different types of situations. Nowadays, with compromises, A person can sometimes cover all 3 with 1 and specifically in my case, I can cover stills and ENG work with MILCs and leave shooting projects where I want RAW on a cinema camera. The real question is where you want those compromises. For myself I will mostly be going with the A7SIII only because the limitations on the R5 are an absolute deal-breaker for the type of shooting I want MILCs for and it isn't because I need a "cinema camera.." because I already have one and it isn't necessarily the best choice either.
 
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davidhfe

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Since HDMI is capped to 4K60, I wonder if it's possible that a future firmware update would let the R5 output 8K or 4K120 via the USB-C port? Then you'd need Atomos to make a nice little 8K recorder.

You'd need alternate display mode if you're sending video signals in a way an Atmos could pickup. I'd be surprised if the embedded USB C controller supports that. You're still limited by the heat generated from the sensor.

(I would be much more interested in writing directly to a fast 2TB SSD over USB-C)
 
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PureClassA

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I am appalled that I am only limited to 15 minute 4K120p recording.

120 FPS on a 24 FPS timeline is 5 times speed reduction.

So that translates to 75 minutes of slow motion video. There goes my allusions of making feature film length b-roll youtube videos.
I know right?!?!? We got screwed!!!!!!
 
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You mean like this?
Nope. Like this: Panasonic DC-S1H
 
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davidhfe

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On that same note, I don't agree that us who do a lot of video work on MILCs should just "Get a cinema camera.." The form factor, size and weight are entirely different and thus the production gear to support those cameras are much larger. I can pack a mini motorized slider, 3 axis timelapse moco, dji gimbal, 2 bodies and a few primes and batteries all in a Peak design backpack. For the types of work that support this type of loadout, I will also never shoot RAW and rather have a lighter weight codec that can reduce time in post and minimize storage and archival requirements.

I have been guilty of the "get a cinema camera" line, and I wish all the folks on video forums were as reasonable as you are. I think a lot of us stills-focused people just find ourselves at wits end when video users are holding up cameras like sigma fp as an example of the innovation canon must deliver. I would love Canon to build specialized cameras for every person, but at some point folks need to either buy what's put on offer or look elsewhere—be it a cinema cam or a MILC that's more video-focused.

(I can just imagine canon releasing a sigma fp. No IBIS! Only 24mp! Doesn't even include a hot shoe! Canon isn't listening!)
 
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BakaBokeh

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This is a dangerous assumption. The on chip information processing, read circuitry, and ADC are all big sources of heat. I don't think the encoding is what's at fault here, otherwise you wouldn't see unlimited (well, thermally) times in the binning and 1:1 modes. Would love to be wrong, as it'd solve the most important (oversampled 4K24/30 and 4K60) issues. An external recorder still won't give you 8K RAW nor 4K 120.
I see both your points. So It's a matter of which is the bigger culprit of the heating? Is it the in camera recording? Or is it the higher resolution/framerate bitrates being generated? We just don't know until it's put into practice.

I do lean towards it being the recording, so I suspect the external recorder being a viable option. But this is only because I've tested video streams to OBS for super long periods without heating being an issue. That's obviously different as I've never used the higher bitrate 8K and 4K so it could be moot. But there's something to be said about what PureClassA said, " I shot almost 2 hours straight (ONE shot) and the LPE6N still had 30%-40% on it. "

Even with the caveat of turning off the displays (which is what makes sense to do anyway), the lower battery consumption make it reasonable to assume less heat being generated. Looking forward to seeing the results.
 
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